The She-Hulk 12 Retcon (SPOILERS)

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Michael
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The She-Hulk 12 Retcon (SPOILERS)

Post by Michael » Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:19 am

Ok, so She-Hulk 12 is out and the twist is that Nightwatch was NEVER a hero- he was a villain that cast a spell to make people think he was a hero. So do this mean that NONE of Nightwatch's appearances are "real"? Bear in mind that Doctor Druid appears in this story- he was killed in Druid 4, which was published in August 1995 and Nightwatch's final appearance prior to this series was in Spider-Man Unlimited 14, which was published December 1996. OTOH, I can't think of any references to Druid 4 until after Spider-Man Unlimited 14 off the top of my head, so maybe Druid 4 takes place after Spider-Man Unlimited 14. Of course, if Nightwatch wasn't present for some of these stories, then how did they "really" happen? For example, what happened to Alfredo Morelli when he was stuck on that island and how did he get the gauntlet?

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Re: The She-Hulk 12 Retcon (SPOILERS)

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat Feb 21, 2015 8:34 am

Based on the general trend that's been going on at Marvel these days, I'm inclined to believe that the Nightwatch we're seeing here is from another reality. (Only half kidding.)
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Re: The She-Hulk 12 Retcon (SPOILERS)

Post by JephYork » Wed Feb 25, 2015 4:27 am

Ok, so She-Hulk 12 is out and the twist is that Nightwatch was NEVER a hero- he was a villain that cast a spell to make people think he was a hero.
That's not quite the way I interpreted it. It's not saying "Nightwatch was NEVER a hero", it's saying "Nightwatch is a former villain who cast a spell to make the entire world think he was a hero. Then, having successfully 'become' this hero in the world's eyes, he kept right on heroing."

So Nightwatch's *previous origin* has been erased, since this is his new origin. But the issue isn't saying that *ALL* of his previous appearances are fake memories. Just, every appearance *occurring before this flashback* is fake.

So we should probably place this flashback as far back as humanly possible. ;-)

For example, if this flashback takes place between Nightwatch's origin (WOSM #100/2-FB) and his next appearance (WOSM #97) -- then everything from WOSM #97 onward actually happened. The only difference is that Nightwatch was a villain in disguise the whole time.

So, how far back can this go?

-Jeph!

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Re: The She-Hulk 12 Retcon (SPOILERS)

Post by Mikhail » Tue Mar 17, 2015 12:40 pm

My impression was that EVERY heroic story of Nightwatch was fabricated by the spell. After beating up Druid, Vibro, and Shocker, Nightwatch decided to "retire" and live off his laurels. He didn't seem to have any interest or experience in being an actual hero, just using that backstory to his advantage. His "heroing" was the donations he made to charity, but he wasn't willing to ACTUALLY put his life on the line for something.

And, as much as I loved 90's Nightwatch, turning his entire career into a meta-commentary of super-heroism works pretty well. He was clearly Marvel's attempt at creating their own Spawn. His origin had a contrived Terminator quality to it. He was a bit player in major events like Maximum Carnage (and somehow the only hero left out of the video game adaption, which now makes total sense to me).

As for actual reasoning for placing the spell at the end of his career, Druid was at his evil-est at that point. Positioning it between Secret Defenders #25 and Druid #1 is a good spot where Anthony Druid would legitimately be willing to do bad stuff. There's some timeline flexibility in the Spider-Verse around that time. SMU #14 was one of the last Clone Saga stories, and the Spidey titles jumped "six months" after the Clone Saga ended.

Looking at Nightwatch's appearance list:
NIGHTW 3-FB
WOSM 100/2-FB
{WOSM 97}
WOSM 98
WOSM 99
WOSM 100
WOSM 100/2
WOSM@ 9/3
WOSM 103
ASM 380
SMU 2
WOSM 104/2
WOSM 105/2
WOSM 106/2
NIGHTW 1
NIGHTW 2
NIGHTW 3
NIGHTW 4
NIGHTW 5
NIGHTW 6
MORBIUS 29
NIGHTW 7
NIGHTW 8
NIGHTW 9
NIGHTW 10
NIGHTW 11
NIGHTW 12
SMU 14

...practically everything there is based around his secret origin, which we now know is false. The Nightwatch series was all about the time loop that led him to become Nightwatch. His early WOSM appearances about coming back from 10 years on the island and restarting his life...probably didn't happen. I already mentioned his Maximum Carnage appearances were mostly just an extended cameo.

So what are the consequences of writing off Nightwatch's entire history? Alfredo's return as Gauntlet, which unfortunately further complicates the Richard Fisk backstory. He interacted with Spider-Man and Cardiac a bit. Do we have any proof that the rest of Kevin Trench's supporting cast is "real" -- did they ever interact with anyone other than Nightwatch and each other, other than Betty Brant's interview in SMU #14?

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Re: The She-Hulk 12 Retcon (SPOILERS)

Post by Nausiated » Sat Jun 03, 2017 6:24 pm

My take on this is thus:

Looking into this one. In a flashback that takes place "Years Ago", She-Hulk, Shocker, Vibro, Tigra, Monica Rambeau, Doctor Druid, Wyatt Wingfoot, and Nightwatch are involved in the disappearance of a small town in North Dakota. Trying to figure out where this fits in continuity. Here are some facts:

1) She-Hulk is wearing her purple costume with white gloves and boots.
2) Wyatt Wingfoot is present, so it could be during a time that he and Jen are dating again.
3) Monica is wearing her Captain Marvel costume. Her hair was also styled in an afro
4) Doctor Druid is still alive. He's wearing his red costume with blue cape

The only period of time all of these facts could all be correct is around the 1993-1994 publication year.

Facts:

1) She-Hulk and Wyatt were still together during the final run of Sensational She-Hulk (Which ended in 1994)
2) Monica Rambeau was wearing her original uniform during this period although her hairstyle was going through some changes (first she wore it long in Quasar, then started wearing it in dreadlocks during Starblast, therefore I think that's kind of an irrelevant point)
3) Doctor Druid wasbeing altruistic and was wearing his classic uniform, so this is prior to him taking over the Secret Defenders.

I would place these events as happening:

She-Hulk: between SENSH 60 and IH2 417 (As Jennifer was still with Wyatt at the end of that series and then they drifted apart again)
Wyatt Wingfoot: SENSH 60 and Blaze #4 (for the same reasons)
Monica Rambeau: Between CM:FYM and STARBLAST 1 since that is the only logical place you can fit her during this period.
Doctor Druid: between Q 51-FB and CA 420-BTS, because this is the closest point prior to him being forced to lead the Secret Defenders

The villains in the story are the easiest to place

Shocker: Between CA 413 and WOS 109

Vibro: Between IM 267 and W3 26

Nightwatch: WOS 106 and Nightwatch #1
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Some further consideration about the Nightwatch situation.... Clearly he had established himself as Nighteater first, then reinvented himself as a hero. I think that this is probably less to do with reality altering than it does mystical time travel. The difference between the two versions of Trench are oddly different: The "evil" one is a magic user, while the "heroic" one used technology, supposedly from the future.

Nightwatch didn't really become a public hero until his self-titled series.

If this was a simple case of reality altering, I don't think there would be any physical evidence, or the need to cover everything up.

My thoughts are that perhaps Nighteater cast the spell, spent the convening years setting up his heroic identity, then travelling back into the past and setting up the false narrative as being a hero instead. Since Nighteater would therefor still be around, Nightwatch established himself as a hero, fakes his death shortly after his evil self alters the memories of the only individuals that know the truth in order to reinforce the idea that he was a hero. He then laid low for a number of years covering up the physical evidence in order to cover his tracks (and did it poorly) hence how She-Hulk would eventually uncover the truth later on.

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Re: The She-Hulk 12 Retcon (SPOILERS)

Post by Nausiated » Mon Jun 05, 2017 3:16 pm

Actually, re-read that issue.. Yeah my original theory doesn't quite work does it?
I think my chronology placement is off as well. Looking back at the story, there is a clear change in the transformation of the character from Nighteater to Nightwatch.

Maybe this is one of those "One More Day" scenarios where reality was altered to fit Nighteater's desired narrative. Since Nighteater is no way as powerful as someone of Mephisto, maybe some of the finer details were still there... Sort of like House of M I guess? You know how, Hawkeye was able to see the "real" newspaper stories and such? Maybe he altered reality to create the Nightwatch persona, creating all the things that would support the ruse (including an altered past, and the characters that support his false origins), however, he didn't erase all record of it. Which explains his faked death in Spider-Man Unlimited and his laying low for a while. He was likely using that time to try to tie up loose ends.

Looking at Nightwatch's first appearance in WOS #97, the flashback in She-Hulk Vol 3 #12 could work as an appearance prior to his becoming Nightwatch.

It would have to take place after the events of Sensational She-Hulk #45-49, as She-Hulk was had swapped bodies with Weezie during that period. Anything after She-Hulk #50 she was fighting for her life after she was sprayed with chemicals by War Zone. So my second guess is that these events happen between SENSH 49 & 50, same thing for Wyatt.

Captain Marvel, by this position, would be between Q 42 and Q 54 (prior to her getting involved in the Starblast event)

Doctor Druid would be appearing here between CA 309 and Q 45 (prior to his forming Shock Troop)

Shocker and Vibro's chronologies would be the same as I originally thought they would fit since there were not really different ones.

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