Hellrung/Stark flashbacks in The Order #1

[robfj]

I've been trying to sort out the flashbacks in ORDER2 #1.

Paul Bourcier asked about some of these flashbacks in the 2007 thread 'Tony Stark in flashbacks in ORDER2 1', but didn't receive any response. Consider this a very belated reply.

MCP lists 5 FB's in this issue.

3 of them are identified with page:panel numbers and are easy to check. Pages 1-3:1, 9.6, 25:3-25:5 are a sequence of FB's forming an interview with Henry Hellrung. He is the only person listed in them and he's giving an interview about the job as team leader Anthem, which is reasonably listed (along with some other FB's) as between his 1st app as Anthem in Civil War #7 and this issue.

The other 2 are just called ORDER2 1 -FB (Tony Stark alone) and ORDER2 1 -FB-FB (Stark and Hellrung). The connection between these and the actual flashbacks in the comic isn't obvious.

There are 2 other FB's in the issue:- 12:8-13:3 is an AA meeting where Hellrung introduces new member Tony Stark. And 1:5, 1:10, 2:5, 2:10 form an extended -FB-FB within 1-3:1, charting Henry's decline and fall and redemption. 1:5 shows Henry and Tony partying. And to answer 1 of Paul's questions, I don't think 2:10 is Stark at another AA meeting, but Hellrung probably in his new role as a spokesperson for AA. (Henry looks very much like Tony because he's been playing him in a TV series.)

These other flashbacks obviously happen long before CW 7. Rather than try to diagnose the relationship between the MCP entries and the flashback panels I'd rather start from scratch and define new entries to replace the 2 in question:-
ORDER2 1(1:5)-FB-FB for Hellrung and Stark
ORDER2 1(1:10)-FB-FB for Hellrung
ORDER2 1(2:5)-FB-FB for Hellrung
ORDER2 1(2:10)-FB-FB for Hellrung
ORDER2 1(12:8-13:3)-FB for Hellrung and Stark

For Hellrung before CW 7, MCP lists:-
ORDER2 5 (2:5)-FB-FB
ORDER2 5 (2:10)-FB-FB
ORDER2 1-FB-FB

I believe the ORDER2 5 -FB-FB's actually interlace the divided up ORDER2 1-FB-FB. My suggestion for the complete pre-CW 7 Hellrung sequence is:-
ORDER2 5 (2:5)-FB-FB Cleanshaven Hellrung dates PR-person Kate Kildare. They later break up because of his partying and womanising.
ORDER2 1(1:5)-FB-FB Stark and hirsute Stark-lookalike Hellrung party
ORDER2 1(1:10)-FB-FB Hellrung drinks on the set of his TV show
ORDER2 1(2:5)-FB-FB Hellrung gets fired from the show
ORDER2 5 (2:10)-FB-FB Drunk Hellrung asks Kate to salvage his acting career
ORDER2 1(2:10)-FB-FB Hellrung speaking on behalf of AA (or maybe just at an AA meeting)
ORDER2 1(12:8-13:3)-FB Hellrung takes Stark to his 1st AA meeting

Paul Bourcier's other 2 questions were about the placing of the 2 Stark flashbacks in Iron Man's sequence.

13:3 is Stark's 5th day sober. He never went to AA meetings after his 1st drying out in IM 128. It is more sensible that this occurs after his more serious bout of alcoholism later. He swore off the drink then in IM 182. James Rhodes continued as replacement Iron Man for many more issues. Tony Stark is in hospital for a week at the end of IM 182. It makes sense then that that week is this issue's 5 days, and the FB immediately follows IM 182.

This would mean that the AA meeting with Hellrung and Stark is in New York. It might may more sense in 1 way for Stark to contact Hellrung in California after the cast move there in IM 184. But it wouldn't be so sensible in alcoholic recovery terms. And Hellrung's proselytising for AA could have taken him to NY.

Stark has a shaggy moustache and beard for many issues after IM 182 which doesn't fit with his appearance in 13:3. But then the artist has drawn Stark with pretty much the same moustache and beard in the 3 eras this comic spans. And he does give him shaggier hair in 13:3, which fits.

The 1:5 party panel is harder to date. In 13:3 Hellrung says he's 5 years sober to the day, so 1:5 is more than 5 years before IM 182. Even in real years that puts it before IM 128, and in Marvel years it should take us much earlier.

There is a problem with the whole Hellrung backstory here. He says he played Iron Man *and* Tony Stark in the TV series. But this should mean that their dual identity was publicly known, which won't happen until many years after IM 182. However we explain (or ignore) this facet of the tale, it can't affect the placing of the 1:5 FB.

My analysis supports a time for the wild partying in 1:5 before Stark's 1st alcohol scare in IM 128. I have no objection to using the position given for ORDER2 1 -FB-FB in the current Iron Man list - between IM 67 and PM 17. But I would be interested to know what motivated that particular choice.

Note that we are left with the current ORDER2 1 -FB unaccounted for. This is placed in the following Iron Man sequence:-
FS:IM (18 - 23)
FF 544-FB
MSM2 14-BTS
PWJ2 11
WWH:X 1-FB
ORDER2 1-FB
ORDER2 6-FB
T3 3

I suspect from Paul's original thread that this FB is his interpretation of 2:10 which he thought was Tony Stark at an AA meeting. I can't find any other Stark flashback in this issue. Under my analysis 2:10 is a Hellrung app I've already included in the Hellrung sequence. As such ORDER2 1-FB should be deleted from Iron Man's list.


Summary of proposed changes:-

ANTHEM/HENRY HELLRUNG

ORDER2 5 (2:5)-FB-FB
ORDER2 5 (2:10)-FB-FB
ORDER2 1-FB-FB *** split up and reposition ***
{CW 7}
IM5 11-FB
....

Change to:-

ORDER2 5 (2:5)-FB-FB
ORDER2 1(1:5)-FB-FB *** part of ORDER2 1-FB-FB ***
ORDER2 1(1:10)-FB-FB *** part of ORDER2 1-FB-FB ***
ORDER2 1(2:5)-FB-FB *** part of ORDER2 1-FB-FB ***
ORDER2 5 (2:10)-FB-FB
ORDER2 1(2:10)-FB-FB *** part of ORDER2 1-FB-FB ***
ORDER2 1(12:8-13:3)-FB *** new bit inserted ***
{CW 7}
IM5 11-FB
....

The rest of Anthem's list is unaffected.


IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK

....
IM 66
IM 67
ORDER2 1-FB-FB *** this stays here ***
PM 17
A 120 (1 - 14)
....
IM 181
IM5 3 (12:4 - 13:1)-FB
IM 182
IM 183
IM 184
....
FS:IM (18 - 23)
FF 544-FB
MSM2 14-BTS
PWJ2 11
WWH:X 1-FB
ORDER2 1-FB *** this gets deleted ***
ORDER2 6-FB
T3 3
OF 2
....

Change to:-

....
IM 66
IM 67
ORDER2 1(1:5)-FB-FB *** gained a panel no. ***
PM 17
A 120 (1 - 14)
....
IM 181
IM5 3 (12:4 - 13:1)-FB
IM 182
ORDER2 1(12:8-13:3)-FB *** inserted ***
IM 183
IM 184
....
FS:IM (18 - 23)
FF 544-FB
MSM2 14-BTS
PWJ2 11
WWH:X 1-FB
ORDER2 6-FB
T3 3
OF 2
....

[Paul Bourcier]

Hey, robfj! A belated but truly noble effort!

There is a problem with the whole Hellrung backstory here. He says he played Iron Man *and* Tony Stark in the TV series. But this should mean that their dual identity was publicly known, which won't happen until many years after IM 182. However we explain (or ignore) this facet of the tale, it can't affect the placing of the 1:5 FB.

Maybe he started playing "Iron Man" (actor always in armor, identity never shown), then he got his big break and changed roles to play Tony Stark himself while another actor took over the anonymous in-armor role. Is this a plausible way to interpret Hellrung's statement to maintain the five year reference?

I estimate the placement between IM 67 and PM 17 would be about five and a half MU years (ala Olshevsky) before IM 187.

[robfj]

Paul,

Actually the sequence of talking heads and flashback panels is slightly more consistent with a theory that he started off as Tony Stark and then got transferred to the armour when his drinking started interfering with his ability to remember/speak his lines.

But 'unknown actor in the armour gets discovered and given his big chance at the real lead role' has a mythic Hollywood resonance.

[Paul Bourcier]

Cool. Then it wasn't necessarily known that Iron Man is Tony Stark.