AVX to INFINITY

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Jason Doty
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Re: AVX to INFINITY

Post by Jason Doty » Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:23 pm

O.k, looking at Venom, in comparison to Thunderbolts. Starting off I don't see a Venom 12.1, So starting with what you have that takes place after Avengers vs. X-Men

Secret Avengers v1 #29-32

Secret Avengers v1 #33-37 (The story ends with a debriefing to Captain America in his old uniform Captain America)

Fearless Defenders v1 #2-FB (3) (Venom and Valkyrie make out session)

Venom v2 #28-30 (Valkyrie seeing Thompson, still called his teammate in Avengers)

Unsure where the Secret Avengers are dissolved?

Venom v2 #31-FB (before Parker is replaced by Doc Ock in Amazing Spider-Man v1 #698-700)

Venom v2 #31-35 (Venom moves to Phili, no longer an Avenger, Beast in mutated form at Jean Grey School)

Venom v2 #36-37

Venom v2 #38-39

Venom v2 #40-42 (before Mephisto loses his position to Strong Guy in X-Factor)

Fearless Defenders v1 #9-FB (1) (After Valkyrie is merged with Annabelle Riggs)

Fearless Defenders v1 #9 (Venom gathers Iron Fist, Werewolf, Hercules, Doctor Strange, X-Man, Cannonball for intervention/Cannonball already Avenger)

I believe Thunderbolts v3 should happen after all of Venom v2 # 28-42. Do you think this order can stand for Venom and the references? Venom maybe returns to military work, because of the danger to his students?

Thunderbolts v3 #1-6 (Venom recruited from a military operation)

Thunderbolts v3 #7-11 (Uncanny Avengers Captain America new Uniform, Wolverine, Scarlet Witch, Havok)

Thunderbolts v3 #12-13

Thunderbolts v3 #14-18 (Infinity)

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Re: AVX to INFINITY

Post by Jason Doty » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:10 am

Looking at Red Hulk in comparison to Thunderbolts. So starting with what you have that takes place after Avengers vs. X-Men

Hulk v3 #53-58 (stars Alpha Flight, She-Hulk, and Velocidad as part of an Avengers Associate team, Ross still reports to Captain America in his original uniform)

Avengers v4 #31-34 (Wasp returns, before Beast mutates, Parker as Spider-Man, Before Fantastic Four leave for space)

Age of Ultron v1 #1-6 (Red Hulk among heroes who survive Ultron's initial assault, part of plan to go to the future. time altered, but would have happened, after Doc Ock becomes Spider-Man, before Storm cuts hair, after Emma was freed from jail by Cyclops, after Beast mutates, roughly around the time of the AU tie-ins)

Red Hulk's order is pretty straight forward Thunderbolts v3 should happen after the above events.

Thunderbolts v3 #1-6 (red Hulk recruits his team based on a deal for mutual assistance)

Thunderbolts v3 #7-11 (Uncanny Avengers Captain America new Uniform, Wolverine, Scarlet Witch, Havok)

Thunderbolts v3 #12-13

Thunderbolts v3 #14-18 (Infinity)

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Re: AVX to INFINITY

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Jul 03, 2015 12:46 am

Jason Doty wrote:Age of Ultron v1 #1-6 (Red Hulk among heroes who survive Ultron's initial assault, part of plan to go to the future. time altered, but would have happened, after Doc Ock becomes Spider-Man, before Storm cuts hair, after Emma was freed from jail by Cyclops, after Beast mutates, roughly around the time of the AU tie-ins)
More of a side note, really, but Age of Ultron is completely irrelevant.

The only part of the Age of Ultron series that happens in the Marvel Universe is #10, which takes place before Fear Itself; that's the divergence point. AoU 10 shows what happened in the Marvel Universe and A4 12.1 shows what happened in the Age of Ultron universe. Sure, things happened after that largely similarly in both universe up to a certain point (Ms. Marvel becomes Captain Marvel in both universes, Octavius becomes Spider-Man, etc.), but, for example, the Bendis/Maleev Moon Knight series absolutely DID NOT happen in the Age of Ultron universe (because there was no Ultron head left behind to be found in the AoU). Since we know that at least that didn't happen, other things didn't happen as well. Also, other, different things probably happened in the meantime.

Trying to form a Marvel Universe chronology based around when Age of Ultron could have happened is faulty because things happened differently between the two universes after the divergence point. Even trying to line things up publication order-wise around AoU and its tie-ins is fruitless; the Wolverine & the X-Men tie-in alone can't happen in publication order for the reason you cite (Storm's hair); W&X27AU would have to take place before "W&X 24."

Trying to find a spot where AoU "could" happen in the Marvel Universe might be fun, but I would strongly advise against building a MU chronology around that.

Two cents! :)
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Re: AVX to INFINITY

Post by Jason Doty » Fri Jul 03, 2015 8:00 am

Fury wrote
Trying to find a spot where AoU "could" happen in the Marvel Universe might be fun, but I would strongly advise against building a MU chronology around that.
Not so much using as the end all in building the chronology, just trying to build clues, and these events are a catalyst for events that do take place in the Marvel Universe proper. (specifically the time quake). Also, I'm trying to be very thorough. working from the standpoint that if it does not have to happen between point A and B, I'm not going to force it. Using this method, I've come to agreement with you of when Wolverine lost his healing.

If you or Paul or anyone else see an appearance I've missed while a work my way through the Thunderbolts, Please let me know. Then I'll move on to the next set of Infinity tie-in books.

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Re: AVX to INFINITY

Post by Jason Doty » Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:14 pm

Looking at Punisher in comparison to Thunderbolts. So starting with what you have that takes place after Avengers vs. X-Men

Punisher War Zone v2 #1-5 (Spider-Man is Parker, Iron Man in Red armor, Cap in new uniform/ Frank captured and imprisoned by Avengers)

Avenging Spider-Man v1 #22 (Spider-Man is Doc Ock, after Spider-Man beats down Jester/Spider-Man surprised Punisher not imprisoned, Punisher knows about Spider-Man's beating of Jester. Spider-Man captures Mysterio, the last of his targets)

Punisher's order also seems pretty straight forward. I believe Thunderbolts v3 should happen after the above events.

Thunderbolts v3 #1-6 (Red Hulk recruits Punisher based on a deal for mutual assistance)

Thunderbolts v3 #7-11 (Uncanny Avengers Captain America new Uniform, Wolverine, Scarlet Witch, Havok)

Thunderbolts v3 #12-13

Thunderbolts v3 #14-18 (Infinity)

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Re: AVX to INFINITY

Post by Jason Doty » Fri Jul 03, 2015 9:57 pm

Looking at Elektra in comparison to Thunderbolts. So starting with what you have that takes place after Avengers vs. X-Men

Savage Wolverine v1 #6-8 (Wolverine still has healing factor/Spider-Man is Parker/Captain America in original uniform)

Fearless Defenders v1 #5-6 (Storm has mohawk/She-Hulk part of replacement FF/before Black Cat's life ruined by Superior Spider-Man/before Valkyrie is merged with Riggs)

Elektra's order also seems pretty straight forward. I believe Thunderbolts v3 should happen after the above events.

Thunderbolts v3 #1-6 (Red Hulk recruits Elektra based on a deal for mutual assistance)

Thunderbolts v3 #7-11 (Uncanny Avengers Captain America new Uniform, Wolverine, Scarlet Witch, Havok)

Thunderbolts v3 #12-13

Thunderbolts v3 #14-18 (Infinity)

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Re: AVX to INFINITY

Post by Jason Doty » Sat Jul 04, 2015 7:18 am

As far as I can tell Red Leader and Mercy only appear in Thunderbolts v3, during this time period.

I think the suggested order of each character, handles both the Deadpool/Preston issue, the fact that the Thunderbolts are operating on a sub. (yes, Punisher did sneak off the sub, to take care of a Thunderbolts plot point. No mention of the others, anywhere) The overall lack of acknowledgement of other series events for the core characters. This order also has Infinity pushed back to the farthest point possible.

Can anyone come up with anything I missed?

I'll move to Fearless Defenders next.

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Re: AVX to INFINITY

Post by Jason Doty » Sun Jul 05, 2015 4:03 pm

Looking at Valkyrie in conjunction with Fearless Defenders

Secret Avengers v1 #29-32

Secret Avengers v1 #33-37 (The story ends with a debriefing to Captain America in his old uniform Captain America)

Fearless Defenders v1 #2-FB (1) (Valkyrie uses Avengers computers to research suitable shield-maidens/Storm has long hair)

Fearless Defenders v1 #2-FB (2) (Valkyrie drinks at a bar)

Fearless Defenders v1 #2-FB (3) (Venom and Valkyrie make out session)

Fearless Defenders v1 #2-FB (4) (Valkyrie watches TV)

Avengers v4 #31-34 (Valkyrie among large group of Avengers at Central Park

Venom v2 #28-30 (Valkyrie seeing Thompson, still called his teammate in Avengers)

Unsure where the Secret Avengers are dissolved?

Had it occurred on the 616, Valkyrie, would be among the survivors to survive Ultron's initial assault and travel with the survivors to the Savage Land.


Age of Ultron v1 #1-5

Fearless Defenders v1 #1-6 (Hela works with other Death Gods to secure Hippolyta, so before Strong Guy takes over Hell and other fighting in X-Factor/Storm has mohawk/She-Hulk already FF substitute/mannequins have Cap's new uniform)

Fearless Defenders v1 #7 (Riggs taken from Valhalla and merged with Valkyrie)

Fearless Defenders v1 #8

Fearless Defenders v1 #9-FB (1) (After Valkyrie is merged with Annabelle Riggs)

Fearless Defenders v1 #9 (Venom gathers Iron Fist, Werewolf, Hercules, Doctor Strange, X-Man, Cannonball for intervention/Cannonball already Avenger)

Fearless Defenders v1 #10 (Infinity)

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Re: AVX to INFINITY

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Jul 12, 2015 10:54 pm

Punisher: Trial of the Punisher #1-2 spans a month; July 17 to August 16. Punisher's in a holding cell or a courtroom the whole time, so no appearances elsewhere for the Punisher during this mini. Also, Daredevil appears in #2 on August 15. This is current day Daredevil; his secret identity is still a "secret," so before DD3 31-36.

This was published at the same time as DD3 31-32 and TB3 15-17.

This has to be before DD3 31, which is after INFINITY. TB3 14-18 are INFINITY tie-ins. There's plenty of space between TB3 13-14, so that's where it goes! :)

Somewhere in there, at least. Since it was published during INFINITY, probably closer to it than further from it.
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Re: AVX to INFINITY

Post by Antonio Gaviño » Mon Jul 13, 2015 1:01 pm

Assuming the list on page 6 is your latest update for this segment, I'm seeing some misplaced books. Here's a skeleton I have of Avengers related books with the respective reasoning for placement. The asterisk marks placement that differs from what you have or for something you don't have.

Avengers v4 31-34 (Wasp returns, Strange without cloak or Eye of Agamotto)
New Avengers v2 31-34 (Carol already Captain Marvel, Strange gets cloak and Eye of Agamotto back, Red Hulk still around)
*Avengers Assemble 9-11 (old Iron Man suit, Wasp present, Red Hulk gone, Banner working with Avengers)
UA 1-4 (Uncanny Avengers form, Xavier’s funeral, black & gold Iron Man suit)
NA3 1-3 (black & gold Iron Man suit, Mr. Fantastic on Earth)
A5 1 (start), A5 2-FB (after NA3 1-3)
A5 1 (end), 2-5 (Parker is Spider-Man, first Cap's redesigned uniform)
*AVG Millennium 1-4 (Parker is Spider-Man, Cap's new uniform, black & gold Iron Man suit)
PWZ3 1-5 (Parker is Spider-Man, black & gold Iron Man suit trashed by Punisher, Iron Man back in red & gold suit)
*AvX: Consequences 1 (5 - 20), 2-5 (Carol already Captain Marvel, Cap's new uniform, red & gold Iron Man suit)
ASM 698-700 (Octavius becomes Spider-Man, Uncanny Avengers appear, Iron Man back in black & gold suit)

I'll keep going through your list as time allows.

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Re: AVX to INFINITY

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Jul 19, 2015 9:06 pm

Good catch on Iron Man’s suit in Uncanny Avengers #1-4, Antonio, thanks!

I haven’t read Millennium yet. Is it set entirely in the past? Mostly flashbacks with a framing sequence? Is time travel involved? I guess it doesn’t matter, really; I’m just curious. The range you’ve picked out makes sense given the clues you’ve mentioned.

I’ve also added in Trial of the Punisher and Deadpool v5 #14-25.

AVENGERS vs. X-MEN
AvX: Consequences 1 (1 - 4) (before Xavier’s funeral)
Captain Marvel v8 1 (Carol becomes Captain Marvel)
Nova v5 #6 (1 - 15)
SECA 29-37
(red) HULK 53-57
CA6 15-18
Daredevil v3 12-16 (Carol already Captain Marvel) (Wasp still “dead”) (Doom not back yet)
FF 610 / F.F. 22
AACAD 38-39
CA6 19
Avengers v4 31-34 (Wasp returns)
Mighty Thor 18-22 / JiM 642-645, 646 (1-5)
New Avengers v2 31-34 (Carol already Captain Marvel)
SCARSPI2 10-11 / VENOM2 26-27 (old Iron Man suit)
Dark Avengers 175-190 (old Iron Man suit)
Avengers Assemble 9-11 (old Iron Man suit)
DD: Dark Nights #4-5 (old Iron Man suit)
Avengers: Heroes Welcome Digital Comic (Wasp appears, old Iron Man suit)
HAWK4 1-3
AvX: Consequences 1 (5 - 20), 2-4 (1 - 12) (Carol already Captain Marvel) (old Iron Man suit)
UA 1-4 (Uncanny Avengers form) (Xavier’s funeral) (black & gold Iron Man) (Cyclops in prison)
AvX: Consequences 4 (13 - 20), 5 (Cyclops gets out of prison)
HAWK4 4-5
XXX2 7.1
Savage Wolverine #6-8
HAWK4 7 (Kate still around)
YA2 1-6 (Uncanny Avengers appear) (Kate gone)
CM8 2-6
NM3 50
FF 611 (Doom returns)
F.F. 23
WSOL 1-6 (Doom already back)
W2 314-317
Deadpool vs. Thanos 1-4
Indestructible Hulk 1-2 (black & gold Iron Man)
Avengers Assemble Annual 1 (black & gold Iron Man)
NA3 1-3 (black & gold Iron Man suit) (Mr. Fantastic on Earth)
A5 1 (start), A5 2-FB
A+X 1/2
X:L2 1-6
CM8 7-8
A+X 4
INDH 3-5
Venom v2 27.1
SCARSPI2 12
AARENA 1-12 (Christmas)
ASTONX3 57-58 (Christmas)
YA2 7-13 (while arena kids are missing) (Kate returns)
HAWK4 6 & 17 (says December 13-19, but Kate isn’t back until YA2 13)
YA2 14-15 (New Year’s Eve)
FF4 1-3 / F.F.2 1-3 (New Year’s Day) (Mr. Fantastic “in space”) (replacement FF form)
AARENA 13
TB3 1
X:L2 7
A5 1 (end), 2-5 (Parker is Spider-Man)
AARENA 14-18
WSOL 7-14
INDH 6-8
A:Millennium 1-4
PWZ3 1-5 (Parker is Spider-Man)
Savage Wolverine #1-5
Venom v2 28-30 & 31-FB
ASM 695-700 (Octavius becomes Spider-Man) (Uncanny Avengers appear)
Morbius v2 1-5
Avenging Spider-Man 15.1
Superior Spider-Man 1-3
DD3 17-22
X-Factor 246-262 (Uncanny Avengers) (replacement FF) (Octavius is Spider-Man)
Red She-Hulk 58-60
AVENGSM 16 (Beast cat-like)
JiM 646 (6-20), 647-651 (Octavius is Spider-Man) (Iron Man -VO)
Thor: God of Thunder 1-11
F.F.2 4-8
AVENGSM 17 (replacement FF appear)
TB3 2-11
SCARSPI2 12.1, 13-15
Avengers Assemble 12-13
TB3 12-13
IM6 1-5 (1-13)
Red She-Hulk 61-67
ASTONX3 59-61 / XXX2 13 / AOA2 14
Thor: God of Thunder 12
A5 6-9 (Octavius is Spider-Man)
X:L2 8
AVENGSM 18-19
SUPSM 4-6
SCARSPI2 16
Alpha: Big Time 1-5
SUPSM 7-10 (Octavius on Avengers probation)
NA3 4-6 (Iron Man on Earth) (Beast cat-like) (Mr. Fantastic “in space”)
SECA2 1-2
AVENGSM 20-21 (SHIELD’s Secret Avengers appear)
DPOOL5 1-6 & 8-12 (Octavius on Avengers probation)
AVENGSM 22 (Punisher appears)
Morbius v2 6-9
Nova v5 6 (16-20), 7 (1-19)
SUPSM 11-13 (Octavius’ old suit destroyed, starts working on new suit)
WSOL 15-19
FF4 4-5
X:L2 9
DD3 23-27 (before AAI 1 for Pym) (black & gold Iron Man)
HAWK4 8-13, @ 1, 14-16, 18-22 (Mockingbird just fine) (Hawk & S-W break up)
CM8 9-12 (Iron Man on Earth)
CM8 13-14 / AASS 16-17
INDH 9-10
DD3 28-30
SECA2 3-8 (Mockingbird goes missing) (Hill promoted)
Avengers: Endless Wartime OGN
Thanos vs. Hulk 1-4
Thanos: Infinity Revelation OGN
GAM5 1-13
ANX 1-8 (Beast becomes ape-like)
W&X 24
X:L2 10-12
X3 1-3
Venom v2 31-35
SCARSPI2 17-19
A+X 7
SUPSM 14-16 (Octavius gets new suit)
AoU 10 (Beast ape-like, Iron Man on Earth)
INDH 11-15
AoU 10AI
AAI 1-6
UX3 1-2
ANX 9-11 / UX3 3-4 (Iron Man on Earth)
UX3 5-9
IM6 5 (14-20), 6-8 (Iron Man leaves for space)
ANX 11-12 (original UA roster)
UA 5-6 (UA roster expands)
ANX 13-14 (Iron Man in space) (Hill in charge of SHIELD) (during/after UA 5)
Thanos: Infinity Relativity OGN
GOTG3 1-7
IM6 9-16 (1-10)
UX3 10-11
GAM5 14
FF4 6-9
ANX 15
GAM5 15-17
W&X 25-28, 29-FB
A5 10-13 (Iron Man in space) (Octavius on Avengers probation)
NA3 7 (Beast ape-like) (Mr. Fantastic “in space”)
SUPSMTU 1-2 / SCARSPI2 20-23 (Octavius’ probation lifted)
F.F.2 9
Venom v2 36-37
Superior Carnage 1-5
W&X 29
A+X 12
C&XFOR 1-14 (expanded UA roster)
UXFOR2 1-12
C&XFOR 15-17
CA7 1-11 (days before UA 7-22)
UXFOR2 12-15 (Storm in LA)
UA 7-22 (Octavius w/Avengers) (Storm in LA)
C&XFOR 18-19 / UXFOR2 16-17 (end of Storm in LA)
ASTONX3 62-68
Venom v2 38-39
W&X 30-35
JiM 652-655
A5 14-17
X:L2 13-18
Savage Wolverine #12-13
Marvel Knights: X-Men 1-5
W5 1-13
Fearless Defenders 1-6
Venom v2 40-42
ANX Spec / INDH Spec / SUPSMTU Spec
Fearless Defenders 7-9
Punisher: ToP 1-2
FF4 10-16 / F.F.2 10-16 (Mr. Fantastic returns from “in space”)
W6 1-FB
X3 4
Deadpool v5 14-19/21-25
Marvel Knights: Hulk 1-4
IM6 16 (11-20), 17 (Iron Man returns from space)
INDH@ 1 (Iron Man back from space)
IM: Fatal Frontier 1-3
ANX 16-17 / X3 5-6 / UX3 12-13 / W&X 36-37 / X:BotA 1-2 (1-28) / ANDOOP 1-5
UX3 18 (4-11)-FB
UX3 14
X:BotA 2 (29-31)
ANX 18 / UX3 18 (12:2-18)-FB
NA3 8-FB (Iron Man returned “days ago”) (Mr. Fantastic back from “in space”)
INFINITY

Stuff that still needs to get filled in:

A+X #2-3, 5-6, 8-11 (publication dates suggest #13-18 is after INFINITY)
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Re: AVX to INFINITY

Post by Clive_Reston » Sun Jul 19, 2015 10:48 pm

Superior Foes seems to really be pretty flexible, placement-wise, although the Punisher has to be available for the last couple of issues. (#1-9 and 12-17 are one continuous story, although not continuous action; #10-11 are fill-ins.)

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Re: AVX to INFINITY

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Jul 19, 2015 11:29 pm

Oh, yeah! Superior Foes. Paul B. says this:
Paul Bourcier wrote:Superior Foes of Spider-Man is likely after Infinity. The 17-issue series (minus FBs) probably takes a few weeks to unfold; at least part of the series occurs in August and it ends while it's still baseball season, so before the Halloween of Nova v5 #22.

One clue is that a flashback in issue #14, which occurs between issues #11 and 12, shows Reed Richards and Ben Grimm (not in prison) in their red uniforms, indicating a likely placement between Fantastic Four v5 #3-4.

Issue #11 shows Superior Spider-Man (before SuSM 27), and the series' framing sequence (which takes place after the series; probably not long after) shows Peter Parker.
If the series is a continuous string of events, then it sounds like it's all after the INFINITY crossover.

At the start of the few weeks, Octavius is Spider-Man. At the end of the few weeks, Parker is back as Spider-Man. That would mean it happens closer to Original Sin (Parker returns shortly before Original Sin).

If it's not a continuous string (do #10-11, the fil-ins, happen in publication order? Or are they placed in the past? Or do they happen after #17?), then how big can we make the break? Can the first issues happen before INFINITY and the last issues happen shortly before ORIGINAL SIN?

Also, does Punisher appear in New York? I'm assuming yes.
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Re: AVX to INFINITY

Post by Mikhail » Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:05 pm

Things to watch out for in Superior Foes:

-Owl. When does he first appear in Daredevil Vol 4?

-Chameleon. Probably entirely after the Superior Six arc of SSMTU #5-7, which was after Infinity.

-Shocker. Appears in She-Hulk Vol 3, in the "Old Cap" era.

-Iron Man. Still working with Carol Danvers and the Avengers during the finale, when he gives MACH-VII a pep talk and makes a cameo.

And, I fear, the big one:

-Boomerang's girlfriend was Black Cat all along (I think?). Can it all fit in before her arrest (Superior Spider-Man #21) or after her release, post-Superior?

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Re: AVX to INFINITY

Post by Paul Bourcier » Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:08 am

Mikhail wrote:
Boomerang's girlfriend was Black Cat all along (I think?). Can it all fit in before her arrest (Superior Spider-Man #21) or after her release, post-Superior?
I have Superior Foes after Felicia's release, post-Superior, and before her appearance seeking revenge on Spidey in ASM3 1.
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