ORIGINAL SIN to AXIS

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Re: ORIGINAL SIN to AXIS

Post by wolverine7230 » Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:27 am

So, I’ve noticed that no-one’s been posting on this topic for a while, so I thought I’d go ahead and contribute some synopsis. I’ve already done a brief overview regarding Avengers, New Avengers, and Avengers World but here are some extended chronological notes:

AVENGERS #29
Labelled as an Original Sin Crossover, but probably occurs at least a few days, maybe a couple of weeks after the main event, as Cap says during the event when asked by Fury what he saw when the eye exploded, he said that he’d deal with it later. Cannot be too long after the previous arc, as Black Widow and Hawkeye are still actively looking for the imposter ‘Avengers’. Cap is still young. Thor still has a hammer, but it isn’t necessarily Mjolnir.
Cap, with the memories of his mind being wiped by the Illuminati still fresh in his mind, he takes Black Widow, Hawkeye, Thor, Hyperion, and Starbrand to take on Stark. They fight, however the Time Gem decides to appear after disappearing in the first New Avengers arc, and transports them all 48 years into the future.

AVENGERS #30
‘Betrayal + 48 Years’. Continues from the previous issue. Everyone messes around in this future before being transported 422 years into the future.

AVENGERS #31
‘Betrayal + 422 Years’. Continues from the previous issue, with everyone, except Hawkeye. After a short while in this period, everyone is transported 5045 years into the future.

AVENGERS #32
‘Betrayal + 5045 Years’. Continues from the previous issue, now without Thor and Hyperion. After a while in this period, the remaining Avengers are transported further into the future. Back in the present, ‘minutes’ have passed between Hawkeye’s and Thor/Hyperion’s return.

AVENGERS #33
‘Betrayal + 51,028 Years’. Now only Cap remains, and he wonders around this time period before being transported to the next. However, just as he is about to be taken back to his own time, he is stopped by Iron Lad.

AVENGERS #34
‘Betrayal + Forever’. After being rescued by Iron Lad, Cap stays in this time period for a while before being transported back. He returns back ‘five hours’ since Black Widow and Starbrand returned, and little more than that since Hawkeye returned. Cap declares war on the Illuminati.
‘8 Months’ before Avengers #35. Entire arc takes little more than 5-6 hours.


NEW AVENGERS #16.NOW
This HAS to occur here as it starts off the arc, so should be moved to this thread from the Infinity-Original Sin Thread to here. T’Challa and Namor begin to observe another world.

NEW AVENGERS #17
Continues from the previous issue. T’Challa and Namor are discussing the other world they can see through the Bridge, and realise that they are going to have an incursion with that world in ‘two hours’.

NEW AVENGERS #18
Continues from the previous issue. Stark has injuries from his recent fight with Cap, Banner has only just joined the Illuminati. The Illuminati attack the other world.

NEW AVENGERS #19
Continues from the previous issue. The fight continues.

NEW AVENGERS #20
Continues from the previous issue. The fight continues.

NEW AVENGERS #21
Continues from the previous issue. The fight continues, and Namor destroys the other world.

NEW AVENGERS #22
Continues from the previous issue. The Illuminati fight amongst themselves. Another incursion begins.

NEW AVENGERS #23
Continues from the previous issue. Namor forms the Cabal and they destroy a world.


AVENGERS WORLD #17
Should theoretically occur just over 9 months before Avengers #35, meaning that it could be before Original Sin if needed. Last page occurs shortly before Avengers #35 (after AXIS).

AVENGERS WORLD #18
Can occur any time between New Avengers #23 and Avengers #35, as the Cabal has been formed, but there are no direct references to any events.

AVENGERS WORLD #19
Continues from the previous issue.

AVENGERS WORLD #20
Continues from the previous issue.

AVENGERS WORLD #21
Continues from previous issue. This final part of the arc tells us that Avengers World #18-19 probably occur very shortly before Time Runs Out, as Namor speaks to the Illuminati, and tells them that he is ready to destroy the Cabal. It could still, in theory, occur any place before TRO, but would probably work better after AXIS.

So there’s my notes. Hope they’re useful.

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Re: ORIGINAL SIN to AXIS

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Sep 17, 2015 8:07 pm

Thanks, Wolverine!

I've been itching to get back to this, but I've been tied up with a few other things lately. I'm getting close, though!

Keep posting clues; everything helps! :D
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Re: ORIGINAL SIN to AXIS

Post by wolverine7230 » Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:23 am

All-New Ghost Rider:

#1-10 takes place within a consecutive period of 12 days, and #11-12 take place '10 months' later. If this is right, then this would place #1-10 AT LEAST 10 months prior to the final incursion, maybe even as much as a year before. This means that #1-10 would have to take place BEFORE Original Sin, as Avengers #29 (which happens very shortly after Original Sin) is a little over 8 months prior to the incursion.

Anyway, the story focuses on Robbie Reyes, who becomes something similar to a Ghost Rider after he is resurrected from death by the spirit of Eli Morrow. Then the Reyes/Morrow-Rider gets caught up in a gang war in and around Los Angeles.

The only in-story references to the rest of the marvel universe are: 'Cyclops was Right' Graffiti, Some Avengers Comics and Action Figures, and some appearances by Johnny Blaze. There is no reference to any other events. The only clue to chronological placement is the '10 Months Later' caption at the start of #11.

Also, to anyone who hasn't read the series, read all 12 issues. They are possibly one of the greatest series of Marvel NOW! Extremely well written, and great art!

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Re: ORIGINAL SIN to AXIS

Post by wolverine7230 » Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:22 pm

Deadpool:

DEADPOOL #35
One Night, and the next Day. Deadpool speaks to a tonne of people and fights Dracula in a refurbished Spider-Slayer suit. Not too long after Wolverine’s death, as Deadpool knows, but Storm and the rest of the X-Men don’t seem to know

DEADPOOL BI-ANNUAL #1
Deadpool is put on a mission for SHIELD, and ends up as part of those he was told to kill. Could probably do with more vigorous analysis, but I myself couldn’t see any chronological clues within the issue.

DEADPOOL VS X-FORCE #1-4
Takes place in the past, namingly prior to New Mutants #98, and is therefore irrelevant to this thread.

DEADPOOL VS CARNAGE #1-4
Basically just a fun-fest money-making venture by Marvel. No chronological notes here either, other than it has to go after Super Carnage Annual #1. If needed, I can do a more vigorous read of this series, but it’s nearly 1 in the morning, so, I’m more than a bit tired.

HAWKEYE VS DEADPOOL #0-4
Occurs around Halloween, so if we assume Secret Wars begins at the start of May, then this would place Halloween around 8 months before, meaning that Avengers #29-34 and the rest of Original Sin would take place around this time. So, although there’s no real evidence as to the chronology of these issues, it’s actually very useful in determining approximate dates.

Next Up: Death of Wolverine

Hope this Helps,

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Re: ORIGINAL SIN to AXIS

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Sep 18, 2015 6:35 pm

Thanks, Wolverine!

Regarding Avengers v5 #29-34:
I don't have a link with me, but Tom Brevoort (the editor of the book) has said (somewhere on social media, I forget which kind. Twitter, maybe?) that DESPITE APPEARANCES, Cap doesn't actually declare war on the Illuminati in Avengers v5 #34. He starts putting his plans together there, but doesn't actually act on it until after he's aged.

I don't know why Cap would sit on things for a while, but according to editorial, he did. The nice thing is, that opens stuff up for us. Yay!
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Re: ORIGINAL SIN to AXIS

Post by wolverine7230 » Sat Sep 19, 2015 2:39 am

Fair enough, that is true.

But is Time Runs Out 8 Months after Avengers #34, or 8 Months After the Declaration of War.

That's an important question regarding where All-New Ghost Rider should go, and probably other things as well...

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Re: ORIGINAL SIN to AXIS

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:37 am

That *is* a good question! :)

At the moment, I don't know. It might depend on how things line up around the AXIS crossover, but I'm not that caught up yet. Paying gigs gotta come first! :lol:
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Re: ORIGINAL SIN to AXIS

Post by wolverine7230 » Sat Sep 19, 2015 5:58 am

Yeah, to be honest, I haven't really read much past Original Sin either, so it looks like we're on the same page. :D

Also, once you're 'up to date' with these era chronologies, are you going to go back and do some of the earlier ones, because if so, I'd love to help! I do assume that whenever a big crossover is over, you'll create another thread covering the era before that crossover, am I right?

Thanks Anyway!

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Re: ORIGINAL SIN to AXIS

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:15 am

Oh yeah, there's always something to work on. :)

The nice thing about line-wide crossovers is (or at least, the ones with tie-in books), is that they draw a line to let us know what has to happen before and after the crossover. When we're looking between two crossovers, we know where the start and end points are. It makes things a lot easier in the big picture, but sometimes it still gets tricky. That's where the fun happens. :yepp:

I'm caught up to "now" on reading some books, but I've only read up to Original Sin for most of the universe. I have a stack waiting for me to read (Iron Fist: Living Weapon, Master of Kung Fu, All-New Ghost Rider, some Deadpools, the Axis crossover, some Avengers, etc.), I just have to clear some time in the schedule (which should happen soon!).

Keep it up Wolverine, you're doing great! :mrgreen:
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Re: ORIGINAL SIN to AXIS

Post by wolverine7230 » Sun Sep 20, 2015 8:25 am

So, I went ahead and not only read and synopsised (?) all the Death of Wolverine tie-ins, but created a tentative chronology based around what we already know. Storm #6-8, Nightcrawler #8-12, Life after Logan and Logan Legacy #2-6 COULD take place at the same time. There is no definitive way to tell.

Here it is:

DEATH OF WOLVERINE #1-4
You already know the plot. Just placing this here as a basis for the remainder of the Death of Wolverine tie-ins. Wolverine Dies (duh).

DEATH OF WOLVERINE: THE WEAPON X PROGRAM #1-2
The same day as Death of Wolverine #4. Deals with the direct aftermath of Death of Wolverine #4. The story of the test subjects of the facility after it all goes to hell. The facility staff are attempting to evacuate, but are halted by the now-free test subjects. They have a few skirmishes, and escape

DEATH OF WOLVERINE: DEADPOOL AND CAPTAIN AMERICA #1
One Day. Cap and Wade know that Wolverine is dead, and are burning all his belongings so that no-one can get hold of his DNA. They end up fighting AIM, and Deadpool ends up with a knife with Logan’s blood on. Knowledge of Logan’s death seems to be widespread. I am assuming that word of Wolvy’s death has just started to get out, and that Deadpool and Cap are cleaning up the mess before AIM and other criminal organisations realise the new value of Logan’s DNA.

DEADPOOL #35
Could go here, after he’s finished his business with Cap but before Beast tells Storm and the X-Men. Has to go somewhere before Storm #4.

(We can assume that after Hank has finished destroying Logan’s possessions in Westchester – as is mentioned in Deadpool and Cap – that he proceeds to tell Storm and the rest of the X-Men what has happened.

STORM #4-5
The same day as Deadpool and Cap. Storm takes out her rage at Logan’s death by forming auroras around the whole planet, and ends up meeting with Yuriko.

NIGHTCRAWLER #7
One late evening. Probably the same evening as Storm #5. Back at the Jean Grey School, the X-Men are in mourning for Logan’s death, and all classes have been cancelled for several days to pay respect to the loss of their head-teacher and mentor.

STORM #6-8
Takes place over three days. The Morning after Storm #4-5, Storm parts with Yuriko, and ends up fighting the FBI.

NIGHTCRAWLER #8-12?
A continuous story. Takes place anytime after Storm #8. On the first page it is said ‘It’s amazing how quickly things die down.’ So it could go here, or could go after AXIS. Only did a skim-read so didn’t get much else. Your choice where it goes. I couldn’t see any references to AXIS. If you’ve read this, what do you think?

DEATH OF WOLVERINE: LIFE AFTER LOGAN #1
Probably occurs a while after Wolverine’s death, as most people seem to be past grieving, and onto remembering the good times. Three stories, each focusing on how different X-Men cope with Wolverine’s death. These stories could take place at the same time as Storm #6-8, but to be honest, we don’t really know.

DEATH OF WOLVERINE: THE LOGAN LEGACY #2-6
Each story takes place over several days. Shows how X-23, Sabretooth, Lady Deathstrike, Daken and Mystique cope with Logan’s death. Must occur before Logan Legacy #1. The Daken and Mystique stories are the only ones that cross over with each other. The X-23 story likely occurs at around the same time as the Cyclops story in Life After Logan.

DEATH OF WOLVERINE: THE WEAPON X PROGRAM #3-5
Several days after #1-2. The Test Subjects continue their journey, fight Sabretooth, get captured again, and escape, before deciding to go after people with healing factors to save themselves.

DEATH OF WOLVERINE: THE LOGAN LEGACY #1
One Day. Lady Deathstrike references her encounter with Wolverine being ‘recent’. Probably a couple of days after Weapon X #3-5, as the test subjects have now captured Sabretooth, Daken, Lady Deathstrike, X-23 and Mystique. The test subjects and their prisoners are attacked, and escape.

PUNISHER #1-9 / BLACK WIDOW #8-11
X-FORCE #5-7
X-MEN #18-22
X-FORCE #8-15

WOLVERINE AND THE X-MEN #10-11
Happens some time after Logan’s Death.

Hope this helps!

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Re: ORIGINAL SIN to AXIS

Post by Midnighter » Sat Sep 26, 2015 3:47 am

wolverine7230 wrote: DEADPOOL VS CARNAGE #1-4
Basically just a fun-fest money-making venture by Marvel. No chronological notes here either, other than it has to go after Super Carnage Annual #1. If needed, I can do a more vigorous read of this series, but it’s nearly 1 in the morning, so, I’m more than a bit tired.
It's referenced (sort of) during Axis, so it has to happen before.

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Re: ORIGINAL SIN to AXIS

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Oct 11, 2015 1:26 am

GotG3 18-20 is an Original Sin tie-in, but it doesn't involve the Watcher's eye exploding; it's just Star-Lord telling a story. This should probably happen early on if only because of the trade dress, but like the Uncanny tie-in issues, not immediately after the crossover.

GotG3 21 was published during AXIS, and starts a new arc. I'm going to say this is after AXIS.

* * *

Captain Marvel v9 #9 (which starts a new arc) was published the same month as AXIS #1 (and GotG3 20); I'm just going to say this is after AXIS.

* * *

Bucky Barnes: Winter Soldier #1 was published the same month as AXIS #1; I'm just going to say this is after AXIS.

* * *

Ms. Marvel v3 #12 was published after AXIS; I'm going to say this is after AXIS.

* * *

Copied from the INFINITY to ORIGINAL SIN thread:
Col_Fury wrote:Inhuman #7-8 happens over two days. Black Bolt is found, released from Maximus' control, and Maximus gets his hands blasted off. Maximus is still hanging around with Black Bolt in A5 28, which is after ORIGINAL SIN, and since INH 7-8 has to happen after that, they're after ORIGINAL SIN as well.
Has Maximus appeared in Avengers v5 after #28? Or New Avengers?

* * *

Daredevil v5 #6-18:

As Jason mentioned earlier, somewhere, the Shroud is using Alcatraz Island in this series, and Iron Man is using Alcatraz Island as of the Axis crossover. Alcatraz isn’t a timeshare, so Shroud has to stop using it before Iron Man starts. Shroud stops in DD6 18, so that has to be before Axis.

DD6 6 happens the day after the Watcher’s eye explodes in Manhattan, and DD6 7 takes place right after that, so DD6 6-7 technically happen during Original Sin.

DD6 8-10 happens over two days, at an unspecified amount of time after DD6 7. Matt starts working on his autobiography here, for what that’s worth.

DD6 11 starts at an unspecified time after DD6 10, and spans at least a week, if not more. DD6 12 picks up from the end of DD6 11 and happens in a day.

DD6 13 happens in a day, off by itself. It’s a prelude to the next arc, but doesn’t end on a cliffhanger.

DD6 14-18 all happen together. Most of the passage of time is during DD6 14, which may be days or weeks. Matt starts wearing a red suit & tie as Daredevil, but stops by the end of the arc. More on DD6 18 in a bit.

DD6 15.1’s framing sequence is Matt telling stories as he and his pals write his autobiography. This shouldn’t go before DD6 14 because of Matt’s suit & tie, so most likely after DD6 18 (there's no break for it during DD6 14-18).

DD6 18 ends the arc and Shroud stops using Alcatraz Island. However, Matt also stops being a lawyer (he’s disbarred again). So any appearances of Matt doing lawyer stuff should happen before this part of DD6 18. DD6 18 (1-14:2) ends the arc (and Shroud’s out of Alcatraz), Matt’s disbarred as of DD6 18 (14:3), and DD6 19 (14:4-21) happen after that. An undefined amount of time passes during DD6 18 (14). Matt’s autobiography isn’t done by the end of DD6 18, but he’s planning on finishing it soon.

So, DD6 18 (1-14:2) have to be before AXIS because of the Shroud. If there are any appearances of Daredevil doing lawyer stuff that ends up happening after AXIS (I don't know if there is), then DD6 18 (14:3-21) is after AXIS.

* * *

She-Hulk v7 #7-12:

S-H7 7 happens in a day, and starts an undefined amount of time after S-H7 6. Giant-Man appears. Also, aged Steve Rogers appears. Leads directly into #8.

S-H7 8 happens over three days (or longer, lawyer research might me involved), and starts the same day as #7. Aged Steve appears, as does Matt Murdock doing lawyer stuff in San Francisco.

S-H7 9 spans two days (at least), starting on the same day as the end of #8.

S-H7 10 spans another two or three days (at least), starts on the same day as the end of #9, and leads right into the next issue.

S-H7 11 happens in a day, and starts on the same day as the end of #10.

S-H7 12 happens mostly in a day, the same day as #11, then the last two pages happen maybe a week or so later (probably or so, pages 19-20 shows New York is suing the Inhumans for stuff that happened during AXIS).

So, all in one chunk. S-H7 9 was published the same month as DD6 9. I’d place S-H7 7-12 between DD6 10-11.

Up next: Who knows? :)
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Re: ORIGINAL SIN to AXIS

Post by wolverine7230 » Sun Oct 11, 2015 3:46 am

I was under the impression that the Uncanny X-Men 'Original Sin' issues had to take place before the event, because it crosses over with an arc of All-New X-Men that features Uatu. I may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure I've seen people saying that.

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Re: ORIGINAL SIN to AXIS

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Oct 11, 2015 5:08 am

From the first post in the INFINITY to ORIGINAL SIN thread:
Col_Fury wrote:Some of this was KIND OF hammered out back here:

http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/vie ... f=2&t=9336

Of course, some of the assumptions made there turned out to be wrong, like the “Xavier’s Will” thing. ANX 26-29 and UX3 19-23 lead directly into ANX 30 / UX3 24 & UX3 25, all of which has to happen after DPOOL5 29 (because of Mystique), which happens during Original Sin. Of course, Wolverine is shocked (SHOCKED!) here to learn that Cyclops is hanging out in the old Weapon X facility, something he already knew in W6 4-FB, which has to happen before Original Sin. Why was Wolverine so shocked to find out something he already knew? I dunno, maybe he was drunk.
Uatu appears in ANX 25, so that has to happen before Original Sin, yes.

UX3 19-24 / ANX 26-31 / UX3 24-31 / ANX 31-36 feature the end of Mystique posing as Dazzler. Mystique was still posing as Dazzler in Deadpool's Original Sin tie-in issues. That means Mystique was still posing as Dazzler during Original Sin. Since Mystique stops posing as Dazzler in UX3 19-24 / ANX 26-31 / UX3 24-31 / ANX 31-36, that means UX3 19-24 / ANX 26-31 / UX3 24-31 / ANX 31-36 have to happen after Original Sin.

Chronology is fun! :)

* * *

Nova v5 #18-22:

NO5 18 takes place during the Original Sin crossover.

NO5 19-20 happens “24 hours” after NO5 18, so that’s during the crossover, also. Rocket Raccoon appears.

NO5 21 happens shortly after NO5 20, but it’s not specified how long it’s been. A week or so? We’ll probably have to assume longer than that, because…

NO5 22 happens the day after NO5 21, is on Halloween (Hey! Hawkeye vs. Deadpool is also on Halloween!), and technically happens during AXIS. So, NO5 21 is technically during AXIS as well. Also, Beast and a bunch of the Jean Grey School students appear.

* * *

ASM3 4-6 are fairly continuous. ASM3 4 happens at the Watcher's eye explosion, so these are all likely during the Original Sin crossover.

ASM3 7 starts some time later, and guest stars Ms. Marvel. Published the same month as MSM3 9. This starts the buildup to Spider-Verse, and was published the same month as Axis #1. So, likely after AXIS.

* * *

Spider-Man 2099 v2 #1 happens “the other day” after one of the backup stories in ASM3 1 (the Spider-Man 2099 backup, in case anyone was wondering). Miguel finds an apartment, and probably happens over two days.

#2 is mentioned as happening “the other week” after #1, and “the other day” after #1. So, some time has passed, at least.

#3-4 happen in a day or two, and happen the day after #2.

#5 is a Spider-Verse tie-in.

* * *

All-New Invaders #11 has an appearance by an aged Steve Rogers. Also, the Invaders (called the “All-New Invaders” here) are still searching for the missing Human Torch (he went missing in #10). They acknowledge he’s been missing for a bit, and Namor refers to his association with Tony Stark’s Illuminati in the past tense. Also, Human Torch needs to be found before the bulk of FF5 8 (where he appears just fine).

#12 barely happens in the present day.

#13 is basically an Eternals story, and says that NW5 10-12 was recent.

#14-15 happens “a few weeks” after #10. However, the Inhumans appear and Medusa is in her new look, so this is after AXIS.

Steve Rogers is still young in A5 29-34 / NA3 16-23, where Namor forms his Cabal.

So we’re roughly looking at A5 29-34 / NA3 16-23 (Cap young) -> CA7 12-25 (Cap aged) -> NW5 10-12 (Eternals) -> ANINV 11-13 (Cap old, Torch found, Eternals already happened) -> FF5 8 (11-20) (Torch fine)
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Re: ORIGINAL SIN to AXIS

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Oct 11, 2015 7:50 pm

Col_Fury wrote:Has Maximus appeared in Avengers v5 after #28? Or New Avengers?
I've flipped ahead, and yes, Maximus does make appearances as part of Namor's Cabal. And of course, he still has both of his hands.

Maximus is still hanging around with Black Bolt in NA3 16-23, then joins Namor's Cabal in NA3 23 and is no longer hanging around with Black Bolt. Maximus stops hanging around with Black Bolt in Inhuman #7-8 (and gets his hands blown off). It looks like we're going to have to ignore Maximus losing his hands, and that Inhuman #7-8 happens after at least the bulk of NA3 23, if not just after NA3 23. Inhuman #7 was published the same month as NA3 25.
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