Hulk Smash Avengers # 1
Posted: Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:55 pm
Hi, I saw an old locked thread on "Placement of Hulk Smash Avengers #1", where the following was stated:
Postby Paul Bourcier ยป Fri May 11, 2012 9:16 pm
There is an editorial note on the first page of Hulk Smash Avengers #1 that states, "this story occurs between Avengers [vol. 1] #7 & #14." Because A 13 leads into A 14, HSA 1 must occur before A 13. Not that it's a firm indicator, but going by the evolution of Wasp's costume during this period, I'm inclined to place HSA 1 between TTA 63 and A 11, which is contemporaneous with TOS 61-62.
My proposal for character chronologies is thus:
Captain America -- between TOS 60/2 & A 11
Enchantress -- between A 10 (19:6-20:9) & AC 11/2-OP
Executioner -- between A 10 & A 15
Giant-Man -- between TTA 63 & A 11
Hulk -- between TTA 63 & A 11
Iron Man -- between UX 9 & TOS 61
Jones, Rick -- between TOS 60/2 & A 11
Thor -- between UX 9 & A 11
Wasp -- between TTA 63 & A 11
Zemo II/Baron Heinrich Zemo -- between TOS 60/2 & A 15
[end of Paul Bourcier's entry]
The problem with this placement is that the Hulk here is plainly the smart, mean Hulk, who would have preceded TTA 60/2 (he became the dimwitted brute under Ditko's run starting in TTA 60/2). In fact, the Hulk's intelligence is a major plot point in HSA 1 since he otherwise would hardly have joined up with Zemo.
Hulk is smart in TTA 59; he even makes a conscious decision to save Giant-Man's life from a nuclear missile there. Based on Giant-Man's present entry, TTA 59 occurs between Avengers # 7-8. That would suggest that HSA 1 must occur after Avengers # 7, because in TTA 59, Giant-Man notes that the Hulk was last seen fighting Spider-Man in ASM 14. (so it would make more sense to put HSA 1 after TTA 59 rather than before it, since the Avengers would have otherwise just recently encountered Hulky as of TTA 59).
Hulk only has a few entries listed between TTA 59-60:
Hulk (current project)
TTA 59
HFFF
SENTRY2 3-FB
UTSM '97
JIM 112
TTA 60/2
Now, in HFFF, Hulk is already the dumb brutish Hulk. That story can be fit nearly anywhere as it is a fairly isolated story of the Hulk just happening to end up in the Arctic. SENTRY2 3-FB also involves the dumb Hulk, in a lengthy encounter with Sentry near the Canadian border (the Hulk's dumbness is a plot point here as Sentry feels like he 'used' a childlike creature). UTSM '97 features a single panel of savage Hulk leaping around. JIM 112 (end segment) features the smart, mean Hulk "in the great Southwest", boasting about how he will finish Thor the next time they meet, "days later" after Thor tells the kids about the flashback battle in that same issue (JIM 112).
This suggests that JIM 112 should actually precede HFFF and SENTRY2 3-FB.
One way to make this work would be to rearrange Hulk's chronology as follows:
Hulk (proposed):
TTA 59
HSA 1
UTSM '97
JIM 112
HFFF
SENTRY2 3-FB
TTA 60/2
That way, HSA 1 occurs after TTA 59 and before JIM 112; Hulk is smart and mean in all three of those issues. (The reason for placing UTSM '97 before JIM 112 is explained below; the idea being that Busiek just made a mistake in that one panel and portrayed the Hulk as stupid, whereas in HFFF and SENTRY2 3-FB, Hulk's dumbness is portrayed at great length and is of some story significance).
Thor's current entry is as follows:
A 8 (21:7) [battle with Kang]
A:EMH 4 (19 - 22) [which occurs "four days" after the battle with Kang in A 8)
ASM 18
A 9 (1 - 4)
TOS 59
...
JIM 111
UTSM '97
TOS 60
JIM 112
A 10 (1 - 10:1)
Placing HSA 1 between A:EMH 4 (19:22) and ASM 18 for Thor would be consistent with the above suggestion for Hulk, as HSA 1 would precede UTSM '97 and JIM 112. HSA 1 would also precede TOS 59. (This placement is supported by the fact that UTSM '97 occurs some time after ASM 18, in Spider-Man's entry).
That would change Thor's entry to the following:
Thor (proposed):
A 8 (21:7) [battle with Kang]
A:EMH 4 (19 - 22) [which occurs "four days" after the battle with Kang in A 8)
HSA 1
ASM 18
A 9 (1 - 4)
TOS 59
...
JIM 111
UTSM '97
TOS 60
JIM 112
A 10 (1 - 10:1)
Putting HSA 1 between A:EMH 4 (19:22) and ASM 18 works fairly neatly for every Avenger (Thor, Iron Man, Cap, Wasp, Giant-Man) while also keeping HSA 1 before UTSM '97 and TTA 60/2:
Iron Man's (current project)
A:EMH 4 (19 - 22)
ASM 18
A 9 (1 - 4)
TOS 59
Giant-Man and Wasp (current project):
A 8 (21:7)
A:EMH 4 (19 - 22)
ASM 18
TTA 60
Captain America (current project)
A 8 (21:7)
A:EMH 4 (19 - 22)
ASM 18
TOS 59/2
Rick Jones current entry is as follows:
A 8 (21:7)
AC 8/2
TTA 62/2
Note that Rick does not appear in A:EMH (19-22), or in either TTA 60 or 61, so it would still work to place Rick's appearance in HSA 1 between AC 8/2 and TTA 62/2.
Zemo, the Enchantress and Executioner can easily fit between their appearances in A 7 and A 9.
So, putting it altogether, I suggest the following modifications:
Captain America -- between A:EMH 14 (19:22) and ASM 18
Enchantress -- between AC 7/2 & A 9
Executioner -- between AC 7/2 & A 9
Giant-Man -- between A:EMH 14 (19:22) and ASM 18
Hulk -- TTA 59, HSA 1, UTSM '97, JIM 112, HFFF, SENTRY2 3-FB, TTA 60/2 (slightly re-arranged)
Iron Man --between A:EMH 14 (19:22) and ASM 18
Jones, Rick -- between AC 8/2 and TTA 62/2
Thor -- between A:EMH 14 (19:22) and ASM 18
Wasp -- between A:EMH 14 (19:22) and ASM 18
Zemo II/Baron Heinrich Zemo -- between AC 7/2 & A 9
I think it works much better for Hulk. Does this make sense?
Edited once.
Postby Paul Bourcier ยป Fri May 11, 2012 9:16 pm
There is an editorial note on the first page of Hulk Smash Avengers #1 that states, "this story occurs between Avengers [vol. 1] #7 & #14." Because A 13 leads into A 14, HSA 1 must occur before A 13. Not that it's a firm indicator, but going by the evolution of Wasp's costume during this period, I'm inclined to place HSA 1 between TTA 63 and A 11, which is contemporaneous with TOS 61-62.
My proposal for character chronologies is thus:
Captain America -- between TOS 60/2 & A 11
Enchantress -- between A 10 (19:6-20:9) & AC 11/2-OP
Executioner -- between A 10 & A 15
Giant-Man -- between TTA 63 & A 11
Hulk -- between TTA 63 & A 11
Iron Man -- between UX 9 & TOS 61
Jones, Rick -- between TOS 60/2 & A 11
Thor -- between UX 9 & A 11
Wasp -- between TTA 63 & A 11
Zemo II/Baron Heinrich Zemo -- between TOS 60/2 & A 15
[end of Paul Bourcier's entry]
The problem with this placement is that the Hulk here is plainly the smart, mean Hulk, who would have preceded TTA 60/2 (he became the dimwitted brute under Ditko's run starting in TTA 60/2). In fact, the Hulk's intelligence is a major plot point in HSA 1 since he otherwise would hardly have joined up with Zemo.
Hulk is smart in TTA 59; he even makes a conscious decision to save Giant-Man's life from a nuclear missile there. Based on Giant-Man's present entry, TTA 59 occurs between Avengers # 7-8. That would suggest that HSA 1 must occur after Avengers # 7, because in TTA 59, Giant-Man notes that the Hulk was last seen fighting Spider-Man in ASM 14. (so it would make more sense to put HSA 1 after TTA 59 rather than before it, since the Avengers would have otherwise just recently encountered Hulky as of TTA 59).
Hulk only has a few entries listed between TTA 59-60:
Hulk (current project)
TTA 59
HFFF
SENTRY2 3-FB
UTSM '97
JIM 112
TTA 60/2
Now, in HFFF, Hulk is already the dumb brutish Hulk. That story can be fit nearly anywhere as it is a fairly isolated story of the Hulk just happening to end up in the Arctic. SENTRY2 3-FB also involves the dumb Hulk, in a lengthy encounter with Sentry near the Canadian border (the Hulk's dumbness is a plot point here as Sentry feels like he 'used' a childlike creature). UTSM '97 features a single panel of savage Hulk leaping around. JIM 112 (end segment) features the smart, mean Hulk "in the great Southwest", boasting about how he will finish Thor the next time they meet, "days later" after Thor tells the kids about the flashback battle in that same issue (JIM 112).
This suggests that JIM 112 should actually precede HFFF and SENTRY2 3-FB.
One way to make this work would be to rearrange Hulk's chronology as follows:
Hulk (proposed):
TTA 59
HSA 1
UTSM '97
JIM 112
HFFF
SENTRY2 3-FB
TTA 60/2
That way, HSA 1 occurs after TTA 59 and before JIM 112; Hulk is smart and mean in all three of those issues. (The reason for placing UTSM '97 before JIM 112 is explained below; the idea being that Busiek just made a mistake in that one panel and portrayed the Hulk as stupid, whereas in HFFF and SENTRY2 3-FB, Hulk's dumbness is portrayed at great length and is of some story significance).
Thor's current entry is as follows:
A 8 (21:7) [battle with Kang]
A:EMH 4 (19 - 22) [which occurs "four days" after the battle with Kang in A 8)
ASM 18
A 9 (1 - 4)
TOS 59
...
JIM 111
UTSM '97
TOS 60
JIM 112
A 10 (1 - 10:1)
Placing HSA 1 between A:EMH 4 (19:22) and ASM 18 for Thor would be consistent with the above suggestion for Hulk, as HSA 1 would precede UTSM '97 and JIM 112. HSA 1 would also precede TOS 59. (This placement is supported by the fact that UTSM '97 occurs some time after ASM 18, in Spider-Man's entry).
That would change Thor's entry to the following:
Thor (proposed):
A 8 (21:7) [battle with Kang]
A:EMH 4 (19 - 22) [which occurs "four days" after the battle with Kang in A 8)
HSA 1
ASM 18
A 9 (1 - 4)
TOS 59
...
JIM 111
UTSM '97
TOS 60
JIM 112
A 10 (1 - 10:1)
Putting HSA 1 between A:EMH 4 (19:22) and ASM 18 works fairly neatly for every Avenger (Thor, Iron Man, Cap, Wasp, Giant-Man) while also keeping HSA 1 before UTSM '97 and TTA 60/2:
Iron Man's (current project)
A:EMH 4 (19 - 22)
ASM 18
A 9 (1 - 4)
TOS 59
Giant-Man and Wasp (current project):
A 8 (21:7)
A:EMH 4 (19 - 22)
ASM 18
TTA 60
Captain America (current project)
A 8 (21:7)
A:EMH 4 (19 - 22)
ASM 18
TOS 59/2
Rick Jones current entry is as follows:
A 8 (21:7)
AC 8/2
TTA 62/2
Note that Rick does not appear in A:EMH (19-22), or in either TTA 60 or 61, so it would still work to place Rick's appearance in HSA 1 between AC 8/2 and TTA 62/2.
Zemo, the Enchantress and Executioner can easily fit between their appearances in A 7 and A 9.
So, putting it altogether, I suggest the following modifications:
Captain America -- between A:EMH 14 (19:22) and ASM 18
Enchantress -- between AC 7/2 & A 9
Executioner -- between AC 7/2 & A 9
Giant-Man -- between A:EMH 14 (19:22) and ASM 18
Hulk -- TTA 59, HSA 1, UTSM '97, JIM 112, HFFF, SENTRY2 3-FB, TTA 60/2 (slightly re-arranged)
Iron Man --between A:EMH 14 (19:22) and ASM 18
Jones, Rick -- between AC 8/2 and TTA 62/2
Thor -- between A:EMH 14 (19:22) and ASM 18
Wasp -- between A:EMH 14 (19:22) and ASM 18
Zemo II/Baron Heinrich Zemo -- between AC 7/2 & A 9
I think it works much better for Hulk. Does this make sense?
Edited once.