MA 12 (18-22) misplaced

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robfj
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MA 12 (18-22) misplaced

Post by robfj » Sun Jan 10, 2016 12:23 pm

In the 'SECRET INVASION!' thread Col Fury quoted Tom Brevoort's timeline for the build-up to Secret Invasion. The relevant section is:-

Nick Fury warns Maria Hill on Helicarrier – MIGHTY #12
Nick Fury tells Spider-Woman about the Skrulls, not realizing she’s a Skrull – MIGHTY #12
Real Hank lectures at U of Oxford – MIGHTY #15
Real Hank and Jan separate – MIGHTY #15
Skrull Elektra hires Electro for Raft breakout – MIGHTY #16
RAFT BREAKOUT – NEW AVENGERS #1-3

The Maria Hill part of MA 12 is p13-17. The Spider-Woman bit is p18-22.

Your sequence for Nick Fury is:-
....
SECWAR 4
SECWAR 5-FB ~ MA 12 (1 - 3)-FB
SECWAR 5-BTS
NA 14 (16)-FB
MA 12 (4 - 17)
PULSE 9
NA 14
CA5 16-BTS
C&DP 24
C&DP 25
CW:C 1-FB
CA5 21-BTS
NA 21-BTS
CA5 23
MA 12 (18 - 22)
WSOL:WK
HFH2 2-BTS
CA5 24-VO
....

MA 12 (1 - 3)-FB is NF apologising to the heroes for the Secret War mess.
MA 12 (4 - 17) includes stuff with a Skrull Contessa as well as the Maria Hill bit.

Clearly here you have MA 12 (18 - 22) way after NA 1 (it's after NA 14 & 21) inside Civil War.

Veranke/Spider-Woman also has this meeting during Civil War.
....
CW 1 (20 - 31)
NA 23 (1 - 20)
MA 12
NA 23 (21 - 22)
PWJ2 2 (10:1 - 10:4)
CW 6 (6 - 9)
....


I know MCP has many quibbles with Brevoort's timeline. However in this case I think Tom has it right, and I can't find anything in the Forum which says otherwise. And the Calendar didn't incorporate the MA 12 flashbacks. The clues have nothing to do with Nick Fury telling Spider-Woman about the suspected Skrull invasion. Instead it's what the pair say about SW's current situation.

They refer SW as having been a mole in Hydra for SHIELD, as per the flashback in NA 14 when NF told her to accept Hydra's offer to restore her powers. It appears that only NF knew that she was a double agent. But NA 42 shows that this was when Veranke replaced her. The MA 12 fb then says that since NF's Secret War SHIELD have dropped SW(V) because she was too close to NF, so now she's stuck with only belonging to Hydra. NF tells her to try SHIELD again, now that the dust has settled. They'll probably take her back and initially give her a menial job. Which is where we find her in NA 1, as she explains to Captain America in NA 14.

But before I can say exactly where MA 12 (18 - 22) should go in NF's chronology I have to point out that PULSE 9 is in slightly the wrong place too. It has NF telling Jessica Jones about Luke Cage being severely injured in Secret War, and should happen alongside NA 14 (16)-FB immediately after SW 5. (Or maybe both should be *within* SW 5, but I can't be bothered to think about that.)

The detailed change would be:-

Current sequence:-

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH
....
SECWAR 4
SECWAR 5-FB ~ MA 12 (1 - 3)-FB
SECWAR 5-BTS
NA 14 (16)-FB
MA 12 (4 - 17)
PULSE 9 move to before MA 12 (4 - 17)
NA 14
CA5 16-BTS
C&DP 24
C&DP 25
CW:C 1-FB
CA5 21-BTS
NA 21-BTS
CA5 23
MA 12 (18 - 22) move to after MA 12 (4 - 17) and combine them
WSOL:WK
HFH2 2-BTS
CA5 24-VO
....

Changed version:-

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH
....
SECWAR 4
SECWAR 5-FB ~ MA 12 (1 - 3)-FB
SECWAR 5-BTS
NA 14 (16)-FB
PULSE 9 moved from after MA 12 (4 - 17)
MA 12 (4 - 22) both parts of MA 12 combined
NA 14
CA5 16-BTS
C&DP 24
C&DP 25
CW:C 1-FB
CA5 21-BTS
NA 21-BTS
CA5 23
WSOL:WK
HFH2 2-BTS
CA5 24-VO
....


For Spider-Woman we'll have to consider where to move the MA 12 stuff to. The target area is
MA 12 (1 - 3)-FB
NA 14 (16)-FB
NA 42 (8 - 12:3)
{NA 1}

Both MA 12 (1 - 3)-FB and NA 14 (16)-FB have Nick Fury telling Spider-Woman (Veranke) about the failure of his Secret War in totally different circumstances. (Actually, depicting her in the MA 12 fb with the other Secret War heroes was probably a mistake because she wasn't actually in that series.) In NA 42 (8 - 12:3) V tells Skrulls in SHIELD including Skrull-Contessa to get SW back into SHIELD in a low job. So her main app in MA 12 where NF tells SW(V) to get back into SHIELD should go between them.

So the changes will be:-

Current sequence:-

SPIDER-WOMAN IMPOSTER/VERANKE
....
MA 12 (1 - 3)-FB
NA 14 (16)-FB
NA 42 (8 - 12:3)
{NA 1}
....
CW 1 (20 - 31)
NA 23 (1 - 20)
MA 12 move to after NA 14 (16)-FB
NA 23 (21 - 22) and combine parts of NA 23
PWJ2 2 (10:1 - 10:4)
CW 6 (6 - 9)
....

Changed version:-

SPIDER-WOMAN IMPOSTER/VERANKE
....
MA 12 (1 - 3)-FB
NA 14 (16)-FB
MA 12 moved from within NA 23
NA 42 (8 - 12:3)
{NA 1}
....
CW 1 (20 - 31)
NA 23 both parts of NA 23 combined
PWJ2 2 (10:1 - 10:4)
CW 6 (6 - 9)
....

I don't know why MA 12 was put inside NA 23. In the main part of NA 23 SW burns her bridges with both SHIELD and Hydra. On the last page (21, there is no 22) she only has Captain America's Resistance to turn to. In MA 12 she's been sacked by SHIELD but is still with Hydra, and NF tells her to rejoin SHIELD.


There are some additional bits I've noticed while working on this:-

Page nos for the flashbacks with the real Spider-Woman in NA 14 are:-
8
9:4-13:2
13:4
13:6
Whereas you have:-
9:3-12:6
13:1-13:2
13:4
13:6
The split between 12:6 and 13:1 allows you to put NA 42 (3) in between.
But starting at 9:3 and missing 8 is a mistake.

Similarly for Connely her Hydra handler:-
Really:-
8
9:4-9:5
15:3
15:5
You have:-
9:2-11
15:3
15:5
Missing 8 and starting 9:2 is a mistake.
And he's not actually in 9:6-11.

The combined sequence can be expressed:-
8 & 9:4-9:5 Connely offers SW her powers back if she (re)joins Hydra.
9:6-9:7 SW decides to contact Nick Fury.
10-11 NF persuades SW to accept Hydra's offer but be a mole for SHIELD.
12 The operation.
13:1-13:2 & 13:4 & 13:6 Recovery.
....
15:3 & 15:5 Connely works with SW who is now secretly Veranke.

After correcting the error at the start of the sequences, I think there may be some mileage in redefining the splits between sections to make it clearer in the MCP page depicting NA 14 what scenes SW shares with who.

A version could be:-
Spider-Woman:-
NA 14 (8)-FB
NA 14 (9:4 - 9:5)-FB
NA 14 (9:6 - 9:7)-FB
NA 14 (10 - 11)-FB
NA 14 (12)-FB
NA 42 (3)
NA 14 (13:1 - 13:2)-FB
NA 14 (13:4)-FB
NA 14 (13:6)-FB
Connely:-
NA 14 (8)-FB
NA 14 (9:4 - 9:5)-FB
NA 14 (15:3)-FB
NA 14 (15:5)-FB
Nick Fury already has NA 14 (10 - 11)-FB.
You could choose to collapse SW's NA 14 (9:4 - 9:5)-FB & NA 14 (9:6 - 9:7)-FB to NA 14 (9:4 - 9:7)-FB. This would lose the link between SW and Connely on the NA 14 page, but you could restore it by extending Connely's NA 14 (9:4 - 9:5)-FB to NA 14 (9:4 - 9:7)-FB. (It would be less untrue than the existing NA 14 (9:2 - 11)-FB.)


From here I can jump to another minor point. Spider-Woman (Jessica Drew) is only listed in NA 42 as NA 42 (3), with no mention of her appearance on p1-2. I can only guess that this is because p1-2 are repeats of pages 10 and 12 in MA 14, with identical dialogue and only slightly different layouts (and different artists). My guess is supported by the fact that Nick Fury doesn't get an entry for NA 42 (1) either.

I would have thought that this was a place for ~ connectors. Give NF an NA 42 (1) entry and expand SW(JD)'s to NA 42 (1) & NA 42 (2-3). Then change SW's
NA 14 (10 - 11)-FB
NA 14 (12)-FB
NA 42 (3)
to
NA 14 (10 - 11)-FB ~ NA 42 (1)
NA 14 (12)-FB ~ NA 42 (2-3)
and change NF's
NA 14 (10 - 11)-FB
to
NA 14 (10 - 11)-FB ~ NA 42 (1)
as well.

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Russ Chappell
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Re: MA 12 (18-22) misplaced

Post by Russ Chappell » Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:39 pm

robfj wrote:I would have thought that this was a place for ~ connectors. Give NF an NA 42 (1) entry and expand SW(JD)'s to NA 42 (1) & NA 42 (2-3). Then change SW's
NA 14 (10 - 11)-FB
NA 14 (12)-FB
NA 42 (3)
to
NA 14 (10 - 11)-FB ~ NA 42 (1)
NA 14 (12)-FB ~ NA 42 (2-3)
and change NF's
NA 14 (10 - 11)-FB
to
NA 14 (10 - 11)-FB ~ NA 42 (1)
as well.
"~" is used for concurrent appearances, when two books, published at virtually the same time, show the same event. These were published almost 30 issues apart, making the NA 42 (1) appearance simply a retelling of the NA 14 story. If NA 42 (3) is truly the same as NA 14 (12)-FB, then we should remove NA 42 (3), also.

robfj
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Re: MA 12 (18-22) misplaced

Post by robfj » Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:19 pm

I understand now about ~'s. I had thought ~ just meant the same scene was shown but with different content. Which I admit doesn't apply here anyway because the relevant pairs of pages are exact copies (apart from being redrawn by a different artist).

But NA 42(3) should be kept. 42(2) is a duplication of the start of Jessica Drew's operation in MA 14(12)-FB, and 42(3) follows on after she's unconscious to show Veranke watching it.

(Similarly NA 42(1) is a copy of Nick Fury and Jessica's conversation in MA 14(10)-FB, which MA 14(11)-FB then continued.)

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