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SECRET WARS #9

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 2:55 pm
by Clive_Reston
...Oh boy is Secret Wars #9 going to cause some difficulties. (CRYPTIC SPOILERS AHEAD.) It's *kind of* a cosmic reset button going all the way back to NA3 1, but also kind of not; some characters remember everything, and the implication is that most not-Incursion-related things from that point up to, say, S-W5 9 or so happened pretty much the same way.

(One can of worms this opens up: without the Incursions, how would Infinity and its consequences have happened?)

A lesser implication: the "eight months later" of ANAD Marvel now might be eight months after NA3 1...!

Re: SECRET WARS #9

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 4:23 pm
by Col_Fury
Clive Reston wrote:without the Incursions, how would Infinity and its consequences have happened?
They wouldn't have. :)

Now that Secret Wars #9 is out, I can start getting caught up on my reading again. Eventually. :lol:

Re: SECRET WARS #9

Posted: Wed Jan 13, 2016 7:01 pm
by Somebody
Clive_Reston wrote:...Oh boy is Secret Wars #9 going to cause some difficulties. (CRYPTIC SPOILERS AHEAD.) It's *kind of* a cosmic reset button going all the way back to NA3 1, but also kind of not; some characters remember everything, and the implication is that most not-Incursion-related things from that point up to, say, S-W5 9 or so happened pretty much the same way.

(One can of worms this opens up: without the Incursions, how would Infinity and its consequences have happened?)

A lesser implication: the "eight months later" of ANAD Marvel now might be eight months after NA3 1...!
Well, here's what Brevoort & Hickman had to say about the "NA3 1" scene in their CBR interview. Caution: It doesn't actually help that much. They're not even sure which ****ing GEM it was. They certainly don't give a straight answer "about what exactly [that guy] did near the end of the story"
Spoiler:
http://www.comicbookresources.com/artic ... l-universe
Let's back up a bit and talk about what exactly the Black Panther did near the end of the story. Was that the Time Gem he used there near the end?

Hickman: Maybe...

Brevoort: [Laughs]

Hickman: Did we ever agree on that, Tom? Did we ever come down on whether it was the Time Gem or the Reality Gem?

Brevoort: Boy, we went back and forth on that right up until the end. I think it was the Time Gem, but it's been a while now, and it was so last minute. You and I were chatting at 7:30 that night as the book was getting done going, "What color is the gem? It's this color now, but it has to be that color! What color does it have to be? Because it's got to work this way or that way."

I remember, we went back and forth between it being the Time Gem or the Reality Gem.

Hickman: It was colored wrong. It was colored green. And you called me up, and -- I won't say you were freaking out, but you were not happy. [Laughs]

Brevoort: [Laughs] It was late on a Friday! I wanted to be done with this!

Hickman: I actually went in and tweaked the color and changed it. Then we had a debate about whether or not it should the Time or the Reality Gem, because both of them work in terms of where we were going with the story and what it actually means.

The point of it, though, was to get T'Challa back to where he was in "New Avengers" #1, so he could act as an advocate for doing things a better way. To carry the weight of it.
(PS: Is anyone surprised they were bothering about what colour which gem was? After all, I seem to recall NA3 got them completely wrong, to the point that the Soul Gem - the green one that resided on Adam Warlock's forehead for yoinks - was purple...)

That leaves three basic options:
Spoiler:
]1) It's the Time Gem, and he travelled back to the time period of NA3 1.
2) It's the Time Gem, and he yoinked NA3 1-era Wakanda *forward* to the eight-months-pre-ANADM time period to replace all the dead people and trashed stuff
3) It's the Reality Gem, and he achieved a similar effect to (2) without time-travel.

For what it's worth, nothing actually adds up. In the panels included with the interview, he appears to be plucking the Gem from over his thumb or index finger, while the yellow one's over his pinky... but the Gems change places slightly randomly. When he zaps Doom earlier, the yellow one (Time)'s over his index finger and the orange one (Reality)'s over his pinky. And there's at least one shot where the thumb-Gem is left clear when it should be either blue or purple. But it certainly appears to be the yellow one he's actually holding in his hand in the final product, though not inarguably so.

The Reality Gem would certainly be the simplest option for us, but I don't think it is.

Re: SECRET WARS #9

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 1:50 am
by wolverine7230
I think it's clear that before we start with ANAD, we need to decide whether the new timeline starts with NA3 1, or if it is a new timeline , that appears to be like that. I'm wondering if we're gonna get some answers on the Black Panther ongoing...

Re: SECRET WARS #9

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 3:18 am
by Col_Fury
Marvel has been very clear that it's the same Marvel Universe after Secret Wars that it was before Secret Wars. Sana Amanat (Marvel editor) went on late night TV last week (January 5, on Late Night with Seth Meyers) and said VERY CLEARLY it's the same universe with the same history. That part's not a question.

As for the Black Panther/NA3 1 thing (which I haven't read yet), it's clear from current, post-Secret Wars books that INFINITY still happened, which is after NA3 1. From that alone, it seems pretty obvious things didn't get rewritten or anything from NA3 1 forward.

Somebody's "basic option three" really does seem like the simplest, least damaging solution. If the comic doesn't say which Gem it was, I say go with that.

Until we learn otherwise, of course. :wink:

Re: SECRET WARS #9

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:55 am
by Michael
One thing to note: in Captain America: Sam Wilson 2, Maria Hill mentioned the incursions to a crowd of people and nobody acted like they didn't know what she was talking about. So clearly the general populace remembers SOMETHING about the incursions.

Re: SECRET WARS #9

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:50 am
by wolverine7230
Fury,
Is there anything to suggest that you can only use one gem at a time? Couldn't you just use them all together?

Michael,
Perhaps they do remember it, although it didn't happen. Reconstructing the multiverse is gonna have some mistakes... Isn't it?

Re: SECRET WARS #9

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:57 pm
by Col_Fury
Again, I haven't read the comic yet. I'm going off what people are describing, and it sounds like only one Gem was used.

You would think using more than one Gem at a time would be more efficient (Thanos had fun using all six at once back in the '90s), but maybe using more than one at a time breaks a normal person's mind? Or something? *shrug*

Re: SECRET WARS #9

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:52 pm
by Russ Chappell
Col_Fury wrote:You would think using more than one Gem at a time would be more efficient (Thanos had fun using all six at once back in the '90s),
This may have been negated/retconned at some point, but after Infinity Gauntlet, didn't the Living Tribunal rule that multiple gems could no longer be used at the same time, specifically because of Thanos?

Re: SECRET WARS #9

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:44 pm
by Jason Doty
Secret Wars #9, is pretty clear that all the universes are being created and recreated by Franklin Richards and Reed who is infused with power by the Molecule Man. While all that came before did, Isn't this an all new creation known as The Prime Earth. On this Prime Earth.

Everyone is recreated regardless if they died during the incursion or during Secret Wars. This universe is created with exceptions, such as those like Miles Morales and his friends and mother now not only resurrected but living on it as well.

I think it would be prudent to denote a marker on everyone's last appearance before Secret Wars #2 (The End of both the 616 and 1610 universes) and anything we see after in this All-New, All-Different Marvel Universe in Secret Wars #9. Any character from another universe now residing in the Prime Universe get transferred to the main page with a note placed on there original page to the main page from there original.

Re: SECRET WARS #9

Posted: Thu Jan 14, 2016 9:37 pm
by Somebody
Russ Chappell wrote:
Col_Fury wrote:You would think using more than one Gem at a time would be more efficient (Thanos had fun using all six at once back in the '90s),
This may have been negated/retconned at some point, but after Infinity Gauntlet, didn't the Living Tribunal rule that multiple gems could no longer be used at the same time, specifically because of Thanos?
It was negated as soon as Infinity War, IIRC. [Plus, this wasn't the MU Gems, it was the Gems of whatever universe that the bit of Battleworld Doom's castle was built on came from. And the Living T was killed in the run-up - the Illuminati skinned him and used it for their "life raft"]

While he had been using the Gauntlet in concert up to that point, for some reason, Panther removed one Gem - which appeared to be the yellow one (Time) - placed it in his palm and focused on it. It would have made more sense to use the Gauntlet - if nothing else, the Power Gem would have backed up what he was trying to do - but he... didn't.

EDIT: From that CBR interview:
Secret-Wars-09-Black-Panther-Infinity-Gauntlet-786a2.jpg
Secret-Wars-09-Black-Panther-Infinity-Gauntlet-786a2.jpg (93.44 KiB) Viewed 1302 times
Next page, his mask/injuries are fixed, the Gem(s) & Gauntlet are gone and he's back in Wakanda.

Re: SECRET WARS #9

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 12:34 am
by Col_Fury
Jason Doty wrote:While all that came before did, Isn't this an all new creation
No.

Reality-616 has been destroyed and recreated before in at least two different Doctor Strange stories that I can think of, and I'm sure it's happened a bunch of times before. This is no different.
Somebody wrote:Plus, this wasn't the MU Gems, it was the Gems of whatever universe that the bit of Battleworld Doom's castle was built on came from.
Oh, that's right. Infinity Gems only work in their native reality, right? So how would Black Panther have used any of them for this, anyway? Unless… it was the Reality Gem, the only one that can affect realities besides its own. :) :D :mrgreen: ooOO?! :outtahere:

Re: SECRET WARS #9

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 2:06 am
by Clive_Reston
The "gems only work in the same universe" thing makes sense to me: the new "prime earth"'s universe is (at that point) the only one there is, i.e. the one in which Doom's Battleworld existed (until Reed and maybe T'Challa remolded it into a nearly exact copy of the old 616 universe), so it's still the one in which that particular Infinity Gauntlet and its gems work. Not that T'Challa appears to have brought them with him...

Re: SECRET WARS #9

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 3:00 am
by Somebody
Col_Fury wrote:Oh, that's right. Infinity Gems only work in their native reality, right? So how would Black Panther have used any of them for this, anyway?
He was between realities. In Hickman's Council of Reeds thing, one of the IG Reeds got another one to become a portal to the IG's reality so that his IG would work in the fight.

Re: SECRET WARS #9

Posted: Fri Jan 15, 2016 7:34 am
by Jason Doty
Fury wrote
No.

Reality-616 has been destroyed and recreated before in at least two different Doctor Strange stories that I can think of, and I'm sure it's happened a bunch of times before. This is no different.
From Newsarama

Brevoort also expounded on the fate of Marvel's multiverse, which the Richardses were left to rebuild in Secret Wars #9, particularly mentioning that the issue signaled the end of the term "616" to refer to the mainstream Marvel Universe, in favor of the term "Prime Earth."

“It's effectively a new multiverse. The biggest and most important thing here that nobody in the world will like, and that I'm the only one that keeps poking at, is the fact that the Marvel Universe is no longer the 616. I don't know if by the end of Secret Wars #9 there are 616 universes yet. There will be an infinite number of them. Realities that we've known and new ones that we've never visited before are being constantly created, and then mapped and explored by Reed and his family.”

“They started by restoring the Marvel Universe. So really, it's now the Prime Universe.”
I think recreating the multiverse is a scale above, and while what was the 616 was restored to be the new "Prime," It has been restored with changes which should be addressed and on a level higher, and is a company wide change.