Spidey confusion. Mantlo/Wolfman and MTU

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Spidey confusion. Mantlo/Wolfman and MTU

Post by AlexEvangeli » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:09 pm

Looking at ASM #188 Peter Parker bumps into Mary Jane for what seems to be the first time since his failed graduation. MJ also learns that Betty Brant has seperated from ned Leeds in this issue. However this issue is according to the chronology placed after M/TU #74-75 wherein Peter is interacting with MJ and the Carrion arc in Spec (beginning in Spec #25) wherein MJ was made aware of Betty's seperation.

Why was ASM #188 placed after these stories?

Additionally why was M/TU #79 placed aaaaaaaaall the way after ASM #201. This a long time after it was originally published and again it doesn't make sense when one looks at it from the POV of Mary Jane. In the issue there is still something between Peter and MJ but this occurred awhile after they'd very much broken up.

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Re: Spidey confusion. Mantlo/Wolfman and MTU

Post by ShadZ » Mon Jan 25, 2016 4:30 pm

I can answer the M/TU 79 question -- it's because it's a Christmastime story, and it's been placed like that every since the Official Index to Marvel Team-Up came out decades ago....
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Re: Spidey confusion. Mantlo/Wolfman and MTU

Post by AlexEvangeli » Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:09 pm

ShadZ wrote:I can answer the M/TU 79 question -- it's because it's a Christmastime story, and it's been placed like that every since the Official Index to Marvel Team-Up came out decades ago....
I see...then let me ask...if hypothetically we ignored the fact that it was Christmas and looked at everything else, where on the chronology would it fall?

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Re: Spidey confusion. Mantlo/Wolfman and MTU

Post by AlexEvangeli » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:22 am

What about ASM #188 and the Carrion stuff. Why does ASm #188 happen after the Carrion stuff in Spec?

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Re: Spidey confusion. Mantlo/Wolfman and MTU

Post by Russ Chappell » Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:05 pm

AlexEvangeli wrote: Why was ASM #188 placed after these stories?
I don't know that anyone here keeps a database of the reasoning behind the placement of every story, and why any given story is placed before or after any other story, so it may not be possible to recall the reasoning, thirty years after the fact. I can only tell you at this point that, according to Col_Fury's recent audit, the placement is confirmed by the Official Marvel Index. That's all I got. Sorry.

As for your specific question, someone here may still know the answer, but...

Well, it may be due to my limited reading comprehension, but I'm finding your question a little difficult to follow.
Looking at ASM #188 Peter Parker bumps into Mary Jane for what seems to be the first time since his failed graduation. MJ also learns that Betty Brant has seperated from ned Leeds in this issue.
Here, you seem to be saying that MJ learns in ASM 188 that Betty has separated from Ned.
However this issue is according to the chronology placed after M/TU #74-75 wherein Peter is interacting with MJ and the Carrion arc in Spec (beginning in Spec #25) wherein MJ was made aware of Betty's seperation.
Here, you seem to be saying that MJ is made aware of Betty's separation in Spectacular Spider-Man (or possibly in Marvel Team-Up--I'm not sure).

So, where are you saying that MJ learns about Betty's separation? ASM 188? M/TU 74-75? Spectacular 25?

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Re: Spidey confusion. Mantlo/Wolfman and MTU

Post by AlexEvangeli » Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:30 pm

Russ Chappell wrote:
AlexEvangeli wrote: Why was ASM #188 placed after these stories?
I don't know that anyone here keeps a database of the reasoning behind the placement of every story, and why any given story is placed before or after any other story, so it may not be possible to recall the reasoning, thirty years after the fact. I can only tell you at this point that, according to Col_Fury's recent audit, the placement is confirmed by the Official Marvel Index. That's all I got. Sorry.

As for your specific question, someone here may still know the answer, but...

Well, it may be due to my limited reading comprehension, but I'm finding your question a little difficult to follow.
Looking at ASM #188 Peter Parker bumps into Mary Jane for what seems to be the first time since his failed graduation. MJ also learns that Betty Brant has seperated from ned Leeds in this issue.
Here, you seem to be saying that MJ learns in ASM 188 that Betty has separated from Ned.
However this issue is according to the chronology placed after M/TU #74-75 wherein Peter is interacting with MJ and the Carrion arc in Spec (beginning in Spec #25) wherein MJ was made aware of Betty's seperation.
Here, you seem to be saying that MJ is made aware of Betty's separation in Spectacular Spider-Man (or possibly in Marvel Team-Up--I'm not sure).

So, where are you saying that MJ learns about Betty's separation? ASM 188? M/TU 74-75? Spectacular 25?
With the greatest of respect to you and Col_Fury et al...there is perhaps some room for some error no?

I apologise for my poor syntax, I shall try to explain more clearly.

According to the chronology, ASM #188 happens after the Carrion arc and the MTU issues. ASM #188 gives the impression that MJ is learning of Ned and Betty’s split for the first time, is interacting with Peter for the first time since she jilted him/Spec #21, which was followed shortly by his failed graduation, something she didn’t know about. Reading ASM in isolation (or even with Spec #21) this makes sense, this is simply the first time they’ve talked since the jilting.

Taking into account the MTU issues and Carrion arc into account though that doesn’t add up. Peter has seen MJ multiple times since the jilting, making the interaction make little sense. At the same time logically she would know he didn’t graduate. It’s something they either would’ve discussed whilst catching up, or MJ would’ve heard about it through the grapevine of their mutual social circle (e.g. Anna and May).

The Carrion arc is also problematic because it mostly gives the impression that MJ either already knew about the split or else is finding out in that issue itself; notably she is hostile to Betty initially before becoming friendly. It kind of makes sense if she already knew about Betty and Ned’s split, but again ASM #188 makes it clear that she finds out in that particular issue (where she is again hostile). This means it makes total sense for ASM #188 to happen before the Carrion arc but not after.

The MTU issues similarly make more sense if they happen after ASM #188. The Carrion arc itself also has MJ mention the events of Spec #23-24 (where she was angry at Peter for standing her up) as if they were very recent, she says ‘the other day’. But if multiple MTU stories happen in the interim (including times she interacted with peter) then it doesn’t make sense for her to be referring to Spec #23-24 as though they were recent events and the last time she encountered Peter; let alone still being upset enough about them to try and talk to him and make amends.

In my personal observations, it would make more logical sense for ASM #187-188 to be placed just after Spec #24, then followed by Carrion and then followed by the MTU issues and the chronology as listed.

On a side note, I am also curious to know where MTU #79 would be placed were one to ignore the Christmas references. logically it would make sense for it to happen in between MTU #78 and 80.

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Re: Spidey confusion. Mantlo/Wolfman and MTU

Post by Russ Chappell » Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:18 pm

AlexEvangeli wrote:With the greatest of respect to you and Col_Fury et al...there is perhaps some room for some error no?
Absolutely. We can make mistakes. We correct mistakes every day, and if we've made one here, we want to correct it.

However, if I'm following you correctly, I just don't see anything here that rises to the level of an error. What I'm hearing is that MJ and Peter would have discussed events in their lives, and MJ would have heard news from other people, etc. But that's a pretty big extrapolation on your part. We just don't see them.

I don't see where you've answered my question, concerning your specific contentions about MJ learning of Betty's status, since your argument seems to hinge on this. In your response, you start with this:
ASM #188 gives the impression that MJ is learning of Ned and Betty’s split for the first time
A couple of paragraphs later, you say this:
The Carrion arc...mostly gives the impression that MJ either already knew about the split or else is finding out in that issue itself
How could "the Carrion arc" give two diametrically opposed impressions? Did she already know about it before the Carrion arc, or did she find out during the Carrion arc? Or did she find out in ASM 188? You seem to be saying both. If I'm understanding you, it appears that multiple interpretations of when MJ learned of Betty's status are possible.

Until we can clear up this discrepancy, we can't move much further.
On a side note, I am also curious to know where MTU #79 would be placed were one to ignore the Christmas references. logically it would make sense for it to happen in between MTU #78 and 80.
I suppose you could place it wherever you wanted. If you want to ignore the references, and ignore the Official Index, and ignore the MCP, you're certainly free to do so. I suppose between MTU 78 and 80 is as good as any other place. (Hey, look, I hear you. I know where you're coming from. I'm just anal-retentive enough to insist that issue numbers serve a purpose, and unless there's overriding in-story evidence that an issue occurs out of order, then 79 always comes between 78 and 80. I don't consider calendar references to be strong enough evidence to juggle issue order. But Marvel put out an official publication and said that MTU 79 does NOT occur between 78 and 80, so the MCP reflects that.)

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Re: Spidey confusion. Mantlo/Wolfman and MTU

Post by Michael » Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:02 pm

Olshevsky's Index had PPTSS 25-32 page 11 placed after Amazing 188. I don't remember why we moved them. Anybody?

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Re: Spidey confusion. Mantlo/Wolfman and MTU

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:21 pm

The recent ASM Index reflected chronologies put in place by previous Index series', but that doesn't make them infallible of course. :)

Like Russ, I'm also not a fan of taking issues out of their numbered sequence. In my mind, M/TU 79 should take place between M/TU 78 & 80, but the Olshevsky Index clearly placed it out of order. I've been meaning to take a look at this era and build a case to put the M/TU series in publication order, but where's the time? :lol:
Michael wrote:Olshevsky's Index had PPTSS 25-32 page 11 placed after Amazing 188. I don't remember why we moved them. Anybody?
I'm sure it'd be in the Archives somewhere.
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Re: Spidey confusion. Mantlo/Wolfman and MTU

Post by Russ Chappell » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:35 am

Col_Fury wrote: I've been meaning to take a look at this era and build a case to put the M/TU series in publication order, but where's the time?
You'd have an even higher burden of proof than normal, to overrule the Index this time. This was not an oversight; this was a clear and intentional decision on their part.

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Re: Spidey confusion. Mantlo/Wolfman and MTU

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Jan 28, 2016 6:39 am

That's exactly why it keeps getting pushed off to the side. :lol:
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Re: Spidey confusion. Mantlo/Wolfman and MTU

Post by AlexEvangeli » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:11 am

Russ Chappell wrote:
AlexEvangeli wrote:With the greatest of respect to you and Col_Fury et al...there is perhaps some room for some error no?
Absolutely. We can make mistakes. We correct mistakes every day, and if we've made one here, we want to correct it.

However, if I'm following you correctly, I just don't see anything here that rises to the level of an error. What I'm hearing is that MJ and Peter would have discussed events in their lives, and MJ would have heard news from other people, etc. But that's a pretty big extrapolation on your part. We just don't see them.

I don't see where you've answered my question, concerning your specific contentions about MJ learning of Betty's status, since your argument seems to hinge on this. In your response, you start with this:
ASM #188 gives the impression that MJ is learning of Ned and Betty’s split for the first time
A couple of paragraphs later, you say this:
The Carrion arc...mostly gives the impression that MJ either already knew about the split or else is finding out in that issue itself
How could "the Carrion arc" give two diametrically opposed impressions? Did she already know about it before the Carrion arc, or did she find out during the Carrion arc? Or did she find out in ASM 188? You seem to be saying both. If I'm understanding you, it appears that multiple interpretations of when MJ learned of Betty's status are possible.

Until we can clear up this discrepancy, we can't move much further.
On a side note, I am also curious to know where MTU #79 would be placed were one to ignore the Christmas references. logically it would make sense for it to happen in between MTU #78 and 80.
I suppose you could place it wherever you wanted. If you want to ignore the references, and ignore the Official Index, and ignore the MCP, you're certainly free to do so. I suppose between MTU 78 and 80 is as good as any other place. (Hey, look, I hear you. I know where you're coming from. I'm just anal-retentive enough to insist that issue numbers serve a purpose, and unless there's overriding in-story evidence that an issue occurs out of order, then 79 always comes between 78 and 80. I don't consider calendar references to be strong enough evidence to juggle issue order. But Marvel put out an official publication and said that MTU 79 does NOT occur between 78 and 80, so the MCP reflects that.)
I respect the MCP placing of MTU #79, that was just more of a creative exercise on my part.


Apologies, I am clearly not explaining myself very well. Basically the Carrion arc has MJ talking to Betty and calling her Betty Leeds in a derisive way because she is still married and dating Peter at the same time as MJ. As the chronology stands this would be the first time they’ve encountered one another since Betty’s wedding many issues ago. Later on they part company peacefully, having talked and it very plain and obvious that MJ is aware by that point that Betty and Ned had split up, with Betty mentioning how she was immature to have jumped into that.

And yet in ASM #188 MJ meets Betty she says something like “Look who’s back in town” and and calls her Mrs. Leeds derisively seemingly again and Betty explains to MJ about her and Ned as if this is the first time MJ has heard about it and they are hostile. To me it seems to make more sense for ASM #188 to precede the Carrion arc.

Here are the appropriate images I managed to scour. Carrion:

http://40.media.tumblr.com/98f01671b9f9 ... 2_1280.jpg

http://41.media.tumblr.com/af26faecfae3 ... 1_1280.jpg

And here is ASm #188

http://41.media.tumblr.com/44509c8683a5 ... 3_1280.jpg

http://41.media.tumblr.com/3da6507315e9 ... 4_1280.jpg

I hope now what I was trying (poorly) to convey is made clearer. The Carrion images are why I was saying it seemed like MJ either knew or found out about Betty and Ned. Taking it on face value you could say MJ met Betty and was unaware of the split and then found out when they went up together, or that she did know somehow and they simply talked further about it. Regardless though their later interaction in ASM #188 is at least very odd when taking this prior one into account. I mean why would MJ and Betty be pretending as if this is the first time they've met in awhile or that MJ doesn't know about the split or about Peter and Betty getting involved? Even if in some weird way it was for Peter's sake Peter knows they are both aware of the situation again evidenced by the Carrion arc.

And with that last image it also seems to me that it doesn’t really make much sense for Peter and MJ’s MTU interactions to have happened before this. Perhaps it is an extrapolation for MJ to know about the failed graduation but from a realistic POV it is very unlikely that in all that time and having interacted with Peter beforehand that she’d have not heard a word about it from anyone, least of all him. I mean why avoid telling her until that very moment if they’ve seen each other quite a few times since then? The real world answer is of course Marv Wolfman plainly intended this to be the first time Peter encountered MJ since the aborted graduation and the scene plays that way in the context of the MTU stuff.

And as I said before the Carrion arc in Spec has MJ reacting to a previous encounter in Spec #23-24. Basically she felt bad about what she did in Spec #23-24 ‘the other day’ and in Carrion is trying to patch things up. It doesn’t seem to make sense then that at least a week has passed (in which she has encountered Peter at least twice) and she still feels bad about it and is only now doing something about it.

To my recollection MTU was relatively self contained/nebulous so it would seem to make more sense for it to happen after these events.

I’m not suggesting that the MCP should or has to change, I’m just trying to clear up my own confusion you see. I write a lot of Spider-Man analytical articles and essays so knowing where stuff happens is important to determining how to examine the character. With what we are discussing here it creates a very different reading of ASM #188 when you know the carrion arc precedes it compared to placing afterwards. As it stands now one would have to figure out Betty and MJ's odd interactions in context of their prior meeting.

Apologies, I am clearly not explaining myself very well. Basically the Carrion arc has MJ talking to Betty and calling her Betty Leeds in a derisive way because she is still married and dating Peter at the same time as MJ. As the chronology stands this would be the first time they’ve encountered one another since Betty’s wedding many issues ago. Later on they part company peacefully, having talked and it very plain and obvious that MJ is aware by that point that Betty and Ned had split up, with Betty mentioning how she was immature to have jumped into that.

And yet in ASM #188 MJ meets Betty she says something like “Look who’s back in town” and and calls her Mrs. Leeds derisively seemingly again and Betty explains to MJ about her and Ned as if this is the first time MJ has heard about it and they are hostile. To me it seems to make more sense for ASM #188 to precede the Carrion arc.

Here are the appropriate images I managed to scour. Carrion:

Image

Image

Image

Image

With that last image it also doesn’t really make much sense for Peter and MJ’s MTU interactions to have happened before this. Perhaps it is an extrapolation for MJ to know about the failed graduation but from a realistic POV it is very unlikely that in all that time and having interacted with Peter beforehand that she’d have not heard a word about it from anyone, least of all him. I mean why avoid telling her until that very moment if they’ve seen each other quite a few times since then? The real world answer is of course Marv Wolfman plainly intended this to be the first time Peter encountered MJ since the aborted graduation and the scene plays that way in the context of the MTU stuff.

And as I said before the Carrion arc in Spec has MJ reacting to a previous encounter in Spec #23-24. Basically she felt bad about what she did in Spec #23-24 ‘the other day’ and in Carrion is trying to patch things up. It doesn’t seem to make sense then that at least a week has passed (in which she has encountered Peter at least twice) and she still feels bad about it and is only now doing something about it.

To my recollection MTU was relatively self contained/nebulous so it would seem to make more sense for it to happen after these events.

I’m not suggesting that the MCP should or has to change, I’m just trying to clear up my own confusion you see.

Also out of curiosity, I am presuming that the chronology for each character is taking into consideration what happens in other series right? Like an ASM issue might have to happen out of numerical order precisely because of something that happens in Iron Fist or something right?

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Re: Spidey confusion. Mantlo/Wolfman and MTU

Post by Russ Chappell » Thu Jan 28, 2016 9:30 am

AlexEvangeli wrote:Also out of curiosity, I am presuming that the chronology for each character is taking into consideration what happens in other series right? Like an ASM issue might have to happen out of numerical order precisely because of something that happens in Iron Fist or something right?
Theoretically, yes, that's possible. That's what I meant, when I said
unless there's overriding in-story evidence that an issue occurs out of order, then 79 always comes between 78 and 80.

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Re: Spidey confusion. Mantlo/Wolfman and MTU

Post by Russ Chappell » Thu Jan 28, 2016 11:11 am

Let me start with a general statement, and then I'll get to some specifics.

When I started the MCP twenty years ago, I was determined that it would faithfully reflect the chronologies laid out in the Official Index. I wanted to use the Index as a skeleton, over which I could lay all the other stories that got left out of the Index. There are plenty of cases where we can read a story and say to ourselves, "Well, gee, it reads better, if it were this way." But I had to grant that Marvel was a better authority on the order of their stories than I was.

Now, of course, the Index was written by humans, and as such, they can make mistakes. But we have to show why the Index--or for that matter, the current listings in the MCP, whether they're confirmed by the Index or not--CAN'T be right. Just saying, "I like my way better" is a perfectly valid reason for changing things in your personal chronologies, but that's not enough to change things here. And that's been the policy, from the beginning. I apply it to myself, and we apply it to everyone else.

Now let's get to some specifics.
AlexEvangeli wrote:[In Carrion, MJ calls] her Betty Leeds in a derisive way because she is still married and dating Peter
Well, let's look at it. MJ bumps into Betty on the street and says, "Oh--Excuse me! Why--Betty Leeds! What are you doing here?"

Is this in a derisive way? I dunno. That's exactly what I'd expect her to say, if she bumped into Betty on the street, without any derision.
[In ASM 188, MJ] calls her Mrs. Leeds derisively seemingly again
Ehhh, I don't know about "derisively," but I'll grant your point here, because Marvel went to the trouble of bolding the word MRS. She's not attempting to make fun of Betty, she's just making the pointed comment that Betty is still married. I'm just not sure that either of these instances have any bearing on when MJ discovered Betty's status. Betty IS still married at this point, so her name IS Mrs. Leeds, and Betty Leeds. Since MJ's right in both cases, I don't think it serves to clear up anything about the timing.
Later on [in the Carrion arc] they part company peacefully, having talked and it very plain and obvious that MJ is aware by that point that Betty and Ned had split up, with Betty mentioning how she was immature to have jumped into that.
The plain and obvious is an inference on your part. Betty is saying she was immature to jump at the security of marrying Ned. This can be interpreted as, "I regret marrying Ned so soon." Someone could say that, even if they weren't separated, so I'm not sure you can assume that MJ knows about the separation from that statement.

In ASM 188, Betty says, "Mary Jane, did you hear about Ned and me?" MJ says, "No. Tell me."

To me, it seems that the creators showed us two scenes in two different books where MJ appears to learn for the first time that Betty and Ned are separated, and the editor didn't catch the snafu. So we're left to determine which came first. We see in dialog that MJ doesn't know in ASM 188, and Betty doesn't know that MJ knows (because she asks). It seems to me that the better evidence suggests that MJ discovers in ASM 188, rather than the implied discovery in PPSSM.

So to answer the question from your original post:
[ASM 188] is according to the chronology placed after ... the Carrion arc in Spec (beginning in Spec #25) wherein MJ was made aware of Betty's seperation.

Why was ASM #188 placed after these stories?
My answer would be "MJ was not made aware of Betty's separation in ~ PPSSM 25. She was made aware of it later, in ASM 188." Now I realize that you could STILL make the argument that if MJ does discover Betty's status in ASM 188, then it re-enforces the argument that ASM 188 occurs before their "reconciliation" in PPSSM, but I can see both sides of it, and so it doesn't elevate to an error. We can't say definitively that the Index is wrong.

Now as to the placement of M/TU:

Your argument here appears to hinge on MJ's regret in ~ PPSSM 25 at the way she's treated Peter, in a previous issue of PPSSM, and yet has had interactions with Peter in M/TU in between these two events.

I know in my lifetime, I've said something to someone that I've regretted, and later had interactions in social situations with that someone and things appeared to be okay, but the things I said, and the regret that I felt, was still eating me up (but secretly). Eventually, I couldn't handle it anymore. I couldn't pretend that it never happened. Morally, I had to go back to that person, and clear the air, and apologize. Life works like that, sometimes.

So this ordering of events doesn't bother me. It actually makes it all seem more real to me.

But that's just me.

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Re: Spidey confusion. Mantlo/Wolfman and MTU

Post by AlexEvangeli » Thu Jan 28, 2016 8:05 pm

Russ Chappell wrote:Let me start with a general statement, and then I'll get to some specifics.

When I started the MCP twenty years ago, I was determined that it would faithfully reflect the chronologies laid out in the Official Index. I wanted to use the Index as a skeleton, over which I could lay all the other stories that got left out of the Index. There are plenty of cases where we can read a story and say to ourselves, "Well, gee, it reads better, if it were this way." But I had to grant that Marvel was a better authority on the order of their stories than I was.

Now, of course, the Index was written by humans, and as such, they can make mistakes. But we have to show why the Index--or for that matter, the current listings in the MCP, whether they're confirmed by the Index or not--CAN'T be right. Just saying, "I like my way better" is a perfectly valid reason for changing things in your personal chronologies, but that's not enough to change things here. And that's been the policy, from the beginning. I apply it to myself, and we apply it to everyone else.

Now let's get to some specifics.
AlexEvangeli wrote:[In Carrion, MJ calls] her Betty Leeds in a derisive way because she is still married and dating Peter
Well, let's look at it. MJ bumps into Betty on the street and says, "Oh--Excuse me! Why--Betty Leeds! What are you doing here?"

Is this in a derisive way? I dunno. That's exactly what I'd expect her to say, if she bumped into Betty on the street, without any derision.
[In ASM 188, MJ] calls her Mrs. Leeds derisively seemingly again
Ehhh, I don't know about "derisively," but I'll grant your point here, because Marvel went to the trouble of bolding the word MRS. She's not attempting to make fun of Betty, she's just making the pointed comment that Betty is still married. I'm just not sure that either of these instances have any bearing on when MJ discovered Betty's status. Betty IS still married at this point, so her name IS Mrs. Leeds, and Betty Leeds. Since MJ's right in both cases, I don't think it serves to clear up anything about the timing.
Later on [in the Carrion arc] they part company peacefully, having talked and it very plain and obvious that MJ is aware by that point that Betty and Ned had split up, with Betty mentioning how she was immature to have jumped into that.
The plain and obvious is an inference on your part. Betty is saying she was immature to jump at the security of marrying Ned. This can be interpreted as, "I regret marrying Ned so soon." Someone could say that, even if they weren't separated, so I'm not sure you can assume that MJ knows about the separation from that statement.

In ASM 188, Betty says, "Mary Jane, did you hear about Ned and me?" MJ says, "No. Tell me."

To me, it seems that the creators showed us two scenes in two different books where MJ appears to learn for the first time that Betty and Ned are separated, and the editor didn't catch the snafu. So we're left to determine which came first. We see in dialog that MJ doesn't know in ASM 188, and Betty doesn't know that MJ knows (because she asks). It seems to me that the better evidence suggests that MJ discovers in ASM 188, rather than the implied discovery in PPSSM.

So to answer the question from your original post:
[ASM 188] is according to the chronology placed after ... the Carrion arc in Spec (beginning in Spec #25) wherein MJ was made aware of Betty's seperation.

Why was ASM #188 placed after these stories?
My answer would be "MJ was not made aware of Betty's separation in ~ PPSSM 25. She was made aware of it later, in ASM 188." Now I realize that you could STILL make the argument that if MJ does discover Betty's status in ASM 188, then it re-enforces the argument that ASM 188 occurs before their "reconciliation" in PPSSM, but I can see both sides of it, and so it doesn't elevate to an error. We can't say definitively that the Index is wrong.

Now as to the placement of M/TU:

Your argument here appears to hinge on MJ's regret in ~ PPSSM 25 at the way she's treated Peter, in a previous issue of PPSSM, and yet has had interactions with Peter in M/TU in between these two events.

I know in my lifetime, I've said something to someone that I've regretted, and later had interactions in social situations with that someone and things appeared to be okay, but the things I said, and the regret that I felt, was still eating me up (but secretly). Eventually, I couldn't handle it anymore. I couldn't pretend that it never happened. Morally, I had to go back to that person, and clear the air, and apologize. Life works like that, sometimes.

So this ordering of events doesn't bother me. It actually makes it all seem more real to me.

But that's just me.
I deeply apologise if I have offended you or anyone else. That was not my intention. And again, I was simply trying to clarify something for myself due to the confusion. For whatever it is worth, long before I discovered this site I had a similar policy of using other official chronologies I found (not for Marvel comics) as skeletons, but I myself adjusted them based upon stuff in the stories themselves because as you say, even the official stuff was written by humans who make mistakes.


The derisiveness in the first Carrion scan is something I got from MJ’s repeated use of the Leeds surname (plus the emphasis placed upon it), the context of the scene (they are being catty) and the fact that MJ is a personal friend of Betty’s so using her surname like that is odd. She was her Maid and honour after all.

For whatever it is worth, Betty had insisted upon being referred to by her maiden name in prior issues , though granted MJ might not have known that.

As for MJ not knowing that Betty and Ned are separated, the second scan leaves very little room for that. Mj knows Betty is involved with Peter and talks about how she survived jumping into marriage with Ned, which Betty just spoke about in the context of being immature/making a mistake. It is very odd that this exchange would happen and MJ would walk away thinking Betty was still with Ned.

ASm #188 however also has MJ make a line of dialogue like “Look who’s back in town.” Taken again with the context of the scene this was intended to be the first time MJ encounters Betty since she returned from her honeymoon and is discovering her and Peter’s relationship. Which adds up with the Carrion stuff occurring afterwards because MJ seemed to not be that surprised that the first time she’s met Betty since her wedding is at Peter’s apartment where she and Peter are seeing one another.

Well, yes it is a snafu I agree. This era for Spider-Man is riddled with them. Wolfman on ASM, Mantlo on Spec and Claremont of MTU were clearly not communicating since, with regards to MJ’s status alone, they were presenting three conflicting ongoing narratives. If you read ASM in isolation you’d have never known that Peter had even seen MJ before #188 and thereafter that he ever spoke to her again until ASM #191. Mantlo and Claremont however have hem still interacting in the interim.

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