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MTU 135, X-Men Vs. Hulk, X&AF2 mini series

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 12:15 pm
by PunyBanner
Hello all, I've been reading the Uncanny X-Men Omnibus Vol. 3 (which includes issues 154-175 of Uncanny X-Men plus the Wolverine mini-series) and I've noticed that the chronologies for the X-Men characters is rather messy during this time. Specifically the placements for MTU 135, X-Men Vs. Hulk, and the X-Men/Alpha Flight mini-series.

One problem is Wolverine being in Japan. He is clearly there from issues 169-172 because Colossus comments how the X-Men have not seen him in a long time when they go to Japan in 172, yet MTU 135 is placed between 171 and 172.

The other big problem is that Wolverine clearly meets Lockheed for the first time in 172 yet he would have met Lockheed already in XvHulk and the Alpha Flight mini-series according to the chronology.

I do have a suggestion for fixing these discrepancies. There is a week long gap in 173 right before Wolverine and Mariko's wedding. We could place MTU 135, XvH, and X&AF2 there. I know everyone is in Japan at this time but it's possible they went back to the states for some reason. Professor X asked Kitty to babysit some kids in MTU 135, maybe they flew back for this reason and the other X-Men, including Wolverine, decided to tag along. Maybe they went back to help Xavier get to Japan since he doesn't show up until the wedding. Also, Storm's new mohawk doesn't debut until the wedding. Maybe she took a week to think it over since she does not have the mohawk in MTU 135, XvH, and X&AF2. And maybe Rogue stayed in Japan with Mariko which explains her absence from those issues. I'm just trying to make the best logical sense of this but the whole Lockheed and Japan thing really bugs me. Any thoughts?

Re: MTU 135, X-Men Vs. Hulk, X&AF2 mini series

Posted: Sat Mar 05, 2016 6:10 pm
by JephYork
Unfortunately, these issues are messy no matter where they're placed. Their current positions are the result of a LOT of poking and experimenting and shifting around -- and over two years of discussion, this is the best balancing act we could all come up with.

I don't think an off-the-cuff "hey let's pretend they all just interrupted Wolverine's wedding pre-party and flew halfway around the globe so Kitty could babysit" suggestion addresses all the complex chronology points these issues affect. (And why would Prof. X *ask* Kitty to babysit if she was currently halfway around the globe? Surely he knows other babysitters.)

Here's some discussion about the issues -- I know there's more but can't find it right now.

Spirited discussion on X-Men vs. Hulk from 2009
X-Men/Alpha Flight v2 discussed here
X/AF is also discussed here while talking about M/GN #5

-Jeph!

Re: MTU 135, X-Men Vs. Hulk, X&AF2 mini series

Posted: Sun Mar 06, 2016 7:35 am
by PunyBanner
I guess I'm just trying to pick the lesser of two evils. Coming up with an explanation for why they went back to the states during the week long gap in 173 (the babysitting thing doesn't have to be the reason) seems to be more plausible than figuring out why Wolverine doesn't remember Lockheed. I'm just basing everything off of the dialogue and reactions of the characters (not seeing Wolverine in a long time, Wolverine asking who Lockheed is).

Re: MTU 135, X-Men Vs. Hulk, X&AF2 mini series

Posted: Mon Mar 07, 2016 9:53 pm
by JephYork
We also tried to pick the lesser of two evils. ;)

I think we rationalized the Wolvie/Lockheed thing off as Wolverine saying "what is that thing doing here/out in public?", not "what is that thing?" Besides, this is far from the first time that two characters have had multiple first meetings thanks to continuity-implant stories or general sloppiness...

Hell, Tony Stark doesn't recognize Mary Jane Watson in the current Invincible Iron Man series, despite them living together in Avengers Tower for months during the JMS Amazing Spider-Man run. These things happen.

-Jeph!

Re: MTU 135, X-Men Vs. Hulk, X&AF2 mini series

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 6:51 am
by Michael
Isn't that because of the spell Strange used to make people forget Peter was Spider-Man?

Re: MTU 135, X-Men Vs. Hulk, X&AF2 mini series

Posted: Tue Mar 08, 2016 11:36 am
by JephYork
I doubt it. Tony should still remember that Peter was his employee, and that Peter and his wife lived in the tower.

Over on tumblr, Tom Brevoort's explanation for is "do you...remember the names of everybody who was in your fifth grade class? You went to school with them all every day for months! Same thing. Tony Stark interacts with a lot of people in his life, and from his POV, Mary Jane and even Peter wouldn’t have been so important or life-changing that he’d necessarily remember everything about them years later."

But let's not get sidetracked. ;)

Did the X-Men travel to Japan for Wolverine's wedding -- then, for some reason, all travel home again for a few days and hang around like nothing's going on, before traveling right back, halfway around the planet for a third time, for the ceremony? Including Wolverine, the groom-to-be? This would be after the Silver Samurai's attack on the team...

What possible rationale would they have for this? (Could Rogue's injuries have required medical attention from the mansion's specialized sickbay? She absorbed Wolvie's healing factor in #173 so I'd guess not, but it sure beats "Prof. X wanted Kitty to babysit.")

More importantly -- what domino effect would this suggested change have on the current chronologies? Right now the current delicate placement affects everything from the Hulk to the Defenders...

Re: MTU 135, X-Men Vs. Hulk, X&AF2 mini series

Posted: Wed Mar 09, 2016 12:00 pm
by Somebody
JephYork wrote:I doubt it. Tony should still remember that Peter was his employee, and that Peter and his wife lived in the tower.

Over on tumblr, Tom Brevoort's explanation for is "do you...remember the names of everybody who was in your fifth grade class? You went to school with them all every day for months! Same thing. Tony Stark interacts with a lot of people in his life, and from his POV, Mary Jane and even Peter wouldn’t have been so important or life-changing that he’d necessarily remember everything about them years later."
Wouldn't a better explanation have been "Stark was mindwiped all the way back to the start of Ellis' Iron Man run at the end of Dark Reign"?

Re: MTU 135, X-Men Vs. Hulk, X&AF2 mini series

Posted: Sun Mar 13, 2016 3:37 pm
by PunyBanner
Why do we need to come up with a rationale for them coming back to the states? We don't see every minute of their lives. There was a week gap and anything could have happened to make them come back. Who knows? We don't need to explain it. I personally feel it's a better fit. Not perfect, but better. Also, I think X-Men Vs. Hulk should be non-canon due to the problems it creates and I don't think it is ever mentioned in any other comic or followed up on. (Speaking of canon, why in the world is Star Trek/X-Men considered canon?? They mention Star Trek being a TV show in the Marvel Universe!! Is it mentioned in a canon comic somewhere?)

Re: MTU 135, X-Men Vs. Hulk, X&AF2 mini series

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 12:26 am
by Jason Doty
PunyBanner wrote
(Speaking of canon, why in the world is Star Trek/X-Men considered canon?? They mention Star Trek being a TV show in the Marvel Universe!!
It's a Universe to Universe crossover. It should be included. Not to mention it is referenced in the handbook entries.

PunnyBanner wrote
Also, I think X-Men Vs. Hulk should be non-canon due to the problems it creates and I don't think it is ever mentioned in any other comic or followed up on.
Who is to say it won't be? Look at the Spider-Verse Crossover, think of the backtracking involved in adding Spider-Ham, which also led to a missed appearance of Howard the Duck (a character who is a 100% 616 mainstay). If it's Marvel we should make our best effort to accommodate it.

If we start down the road of tossing things that don't match up perfectly, or are a tough fit, we would be tossing many canon series in favor of others.

Re: MTU 135, X-Men Vs. Hulk, X&AF2 mini series

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 8:44 pm
by PunyBanner
It's a Universe to Universe crossover. It should be included. Not to mention it is referenced in the handbook entries.
The handbooks used to mention X-Men: First Class and Wolverine: First Class but that has been omitted in later updates. Do any X-Men characters in the Star Trek crossover mention that they are meeting characters from a TV show?

Re: MTU 135, X-Men Vs. Hulk, X&AF2 mini series

Posted: Mon Mar 14, 2016 10:20 pm
by Jason Doty
PunyBanner wrote
The handbooks used to mention X-Men: First Class and Wolverine: First Class but that has been omitted in later updates.
Which entries? I just want to check from one to another.
Also, I believe there are a few issues of that series, or maybe just one, that are included in the MCP because of a reference in a present day tale.

Puny Banner wrote
Do any X-Men characters in the Star Trek crossover mention that they are meeting characters from a TV show?
I don't believe so, but since both the Marvel Characters and the Star Trek Characters are both from fictional universes, who knows who plays the fictional characters on a television show called "Star Trek" in the Marvel Universe. A pop culture reference in a comic is just that.

If a kid in the Marvel Universe dresses like Batman on Halloween, does that mean the DC Universe crossovers should be negated or that the DC Universe doesn't exist as a separate fictional universe? I personally don't think so.

Re: MTU 135, X-Men Vs. Hulk, X&AF2 mini series

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 9:25 am
by PunyBanner
Which entries? I just want to check from one to another.


The big one that comes to mind is the High Evolutionary. His hardcover handbook profile references a Wolverine: First Class story but his later profile in the updated paperback has this story omitted.

I don't believe so, but since both the Marvel Characters and the Star Trek Characters are both from fictional universes, who knows who plays the fictional characters on a television show called "Star Trek" in the Marvel Universe. A pop culture reference in a comic is just that.
I have to disagree. There is a Damage Control comic where the characters talk about Star Trek at great length, mentioning episodes, Captain Kirk, Klingons, even The Next Generation. Unless the X-Men are shocked at meeting TV characters, it really should not be canon. Makes no sense to me personally especially after reading that Damage Control comic.

Re: MTU 135, X-Men Vs. Hulk, X&AF2 mini series

Posted: Wed Mar 16, 2016 3:31 pm
by JephYork
Fictional universes relate to other fictional universes in weird ways.

DC comic books exist as fiction in the Marvel Universe, and vice versa. And yet, both universes have crossed over multiple times, with some of those stories even being referenced in later (non-crossover) issues. How can Spider-Man read a Superman comic, then meet Superman -- and then have that meeting referenced in "Avengers Forever"?

You, personally, can view those crossovers as non-canon if you choose to. Others can choose to come up with long-winded explanations for the mechanics of how fictional universes interact. (Like, for example, perhaps when two fictional worlds cross over, they are both briefly "re-written" by whatever cosmic forces govern them, so that they no longer recall the other universe as fictional.) Still others can just shrug, accept that they're reading comic books and that *all* of it is fictional, and enjoy the stories for what they are. :)

We've gotten AMAZINGLY sidetracked from your original notion, that you think some stories should occur during the weeklong gap in UXM #173. If you're still interested in trying to argue for that placement, I'd be interested to see how your proposed changes affect other related chronologies (like the Hulk, Alpha Flight, the Defenders, etc etc).

-Jeph!

Re: MTU 135, X-Men Vs. Hulk, X&AF2 mini series

Posted: Fri Mar 18, 2016 8:27 am
by PunyBanner
Yeah, sorry for bringing up an unrelated topic. As for how my proposed changes affect everything else, I haven't looked into that. I sometimes think about these things and forget about the larger Marvel Universe and how other character's chronologies might be affected. I can check on the Hulk but I don't own any Alpha Flight comics to check thoroughly.