SECRET WARS

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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SECRET WARS

Post by Col_Fury » Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:41 am

Let’s build a Battleworld chronology!

The recent All-New All-Different Marvel Universe handbook has a Battleworld entry in it, so that will come in handy.

The main story is in Secret Wars #2-9. Some of these minis relate directly to it (like Thors), and others… don’t (like Where Monsters Dwell). Some of these minis reference each other; A-Force happens before Siege v2 because Miss America is sent to the Wall in A-Force, and she arrives at the wall in Siege v2. Star-Lord and Kitty Pryde happens before Guardians of Knowhere because of Star-Lord, Old Man Logan happens before Ultimate End because of old Wolverine, etc.

Once again, I haven’t read a good portion of these yet.

1602 Witch Hunter Angela #1-5
1872 #1-4
A-Force #1-5
Age of Apocalypse v3 #1-5
Age of Ultron vs. Marvel Zombies #1-4
Amazing Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows #1-5
Armor Wars #1-5
Captain Britain and the Mighty Defenders #1-2
Captain Marvel and the Carol Corps #1-4
Civil War v2 #1-5
Deadpool’s Secret Secret Wars #1-4
E is for Extinction #1-4
Future Imperfect #1-5
Ghost Racers #1-4
Giant-Size Little Marvel: AvX #1-4
Guardians of Knowhere #1-4
Hail Hydra #1-4
Hank Jonson, Agent of Hydra #1
House of M v2 #1-4
Howard the Human #1
Inferno #1-5
Infinity Gauntlet v2 #1-5
Inhumans: Attilan Rising #1-5
Korvac Saga #1-4
Marvel Zombies v6 #1-4
Master of Kung Fu v2 #1-4
MODOK Assassin #1-5
Mrs. Deadpool and the Howling Commandos #1-4
Old Man Logan #1-5
Planet Hulk #1-5
Red Skull #1-3
Runaways v4 #1-4
Secret Wars #2-9
Secret Wars 2099 #1-5
Secret Wars Journal #1-5
Secret Wars Too
Secret Wars: Agents of Atlas #1
Secret Wars: Battleworld #1-4
Secret Wars: Secret Love #1
Siege v2 #1-4
Spider-Island #1-5
Spider-Verse v2 #1-5
Squadron Sinister #1-4
Star-Lord and Kitty Pryde #1-3
Thors #1-4
Ultimate End #1-5
Weirdworld #1-5
Where Monsters Dwell v2 #1-5
X-Men ’92 #1-4
X-Tinction Agenda #1-4
Years of Future Past #1-5

Cripes. That’s a lot of books for one crossover.
-Daron Jensen

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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Jason Doty » Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:51 am

Deadpool’s Secret Secret Wars #1-4 does not take place during the current Secret Wars, but intertwines with the original mini series.

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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Somebody » Mon Apr 11, 2016 6:54 am

Col_Fury wrote:Deadpool’s Secret Secret Wars #1-4.
This is set entirely during the original Marvel Super-Heroes Secret Wars. Basically, it retcons a bunch of scenes to have Deadpool in them, and then explains the original version away at the end as "how everyone else remembers it" (since Wasp wished to forget Deadpool was there, and that apparently spread to everyone else)

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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by wolverine7230 » Mon Apr 11, 2016 10:27 am

Well, as far as I can remember in regards to comics that cross over with the main series:

GUARDIANS OF KNOWHERE ends with Quill recruiting the Guardians to take down Doom.
SIEGE takes place in the '30 days' leading up to the fall of the shield (if I remember correctly). A-FORCE crosses over with this.
STAR-LORD AND KITTY PRYDE takes place during the main story, as Quill was on the life raft.
THORS leads into the final battle with Doom.
ULTIMATE END crosses over with the final issue (I think). OLD MAN LOGAN crosses over with this.
WEIRDWORLD crosses over with the very end of the series.

I'm pretty sure that's all of them, but I may have missed a couple.

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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Clive_Reston » Mon Apr 11, 2016 11:33 am

The Secret Wars hardcover reshuffles a bunch of scenes from #7 and #8 to their originally intended running order, but that doesn't really affect much other than making the story flow better.

The end of Siege #4 is concurrent with SW #6.

The first scene of Ultimate End #1 is significantly later than the rest of the issue--a flashback starts right after it, and the story doesn't get up to that point again until near the end of #4. (I've seen a bunch of commentary on Ultimate End that assumes that it takes place on the old 616 and/or happens during the final incursion. Nope nope nope.) There's also a sub-flashback in Ultimate End #1 that's basically identical to a scene in All-New X-Men #31, but is actually about how that situation played out on Battleworld rather than on 616.

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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Somebody » Mon Apr 11, 2016 2:09 pm

There's a lot of minor appearances by Dr./Sheriff Strange in the likes of Inferno and Red Skull to consider, however.

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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:55 pm

A quick glance at the main Secret Wars series tells me a few things.

Secret Wars #2 happens. #3-5 start some time later, and happens in fairly short order. #6-9 start three weeks later, and happens in fairly short order.

In Secret Wars #2, Scott Summers is mentioned as Baron of the Inferno. In Inferno #1-5, Summers stops being Baron, Madelyn Pryor becomes Baron (again) and Dr. Strange appears. In Secret Wars #4, Dr. Strange dies. In Secret Wars #6, Madelyn Pryor is Baron of the Inferno. So, Inferno has to happen between Secret Wars #2-3.

Thanos, Star-Lord (and everyone else) enter Battleworld in Secret Wars #3-5. Star-Lord (with memories of the previous world) appears in Star-Lord & Kitty Pryde #1-3, then in Guardians of Knowhere #1-4. So, these minis happen between then in Secret Wars #5-6.

Thanos (with memories of the previous world) appears in Siege #1-4, so that's also between Secret Wars #5-6. As mentioned previously, the end of Siege #4 and the end of Secret Wars #6 happen concurrently (they show the same scene of the Thing waking up).

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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Somebody » Wed Apr 13, 2016 7:40 pm

There's the certain curiosity of the endings of Age of Apocalypse & Future Imperfect to consider, with respect to the main series. You may want to consider the ending of Inhumans: Attlan Rising in that context...

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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Apr 14, 2016 10:35 pm

Dr. Strange appears in A-Force #1-5, and A-Force seems to happen shortly before Siege v2 #1-4 starts. Since Dr. Strange dies in Secret Wars #4, A-Force happens between Secret Wars #2-3.

Strange does not appear in Captain Britain & the Mighty Defenders #1-2, but Doom does, doing Strange's job. This suggests Captain Britain & the Mighty Defenders #1-2 happens after Strange's death, so between Secret Wars #5-6.

House of M v2 #1-4 doesn't have Strange, Doom or any Thors. It can happen pretty much anywhere, really.

E is for Extinction #1-4 doesn't have Strange, Doom or any Thors. It can happen pretty much anywhere, really.

X-Tinction Agenda #1-4 has Doom, Strange, Franklin's Galactus, Invisible Woman and a Thor. So, either between Secret Wars #2-3 or before Secret Wars #2.

Valeria appears throughout Runaways v4 #1-4 running Doom's academy. In theory, since Valeria is not investigating Strange's death, this should either be before Secret Wars #2 or between Secret Wars #2-3.

The Thors appear in Korvac Saga #1-4, but that doesn't really tell us much (I haven't read Thors #1-4 yet). In theory, either before Secret Wars #2 or between Secret Wars #2-3.

Doom, Valeria, some Thors and the Shield appear in Squadron Sinister #1-4. This Hyperion appears in Secret Wars #2, and this Hyerion is killed in Squadron Sinister #4, so this mini has to be at least after Secret Wars #2.
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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by wolverine7230 » Fri Apr 15, 2016 1:37 am

Why are we assuming all series take place concurrently with the main series?

Remember Doom and Strange have been there for '8 years'.

Although there are flashbacks in Siege to 30 years ago, if I remember correctly.

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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Apr 15, 2016 2:43 am

wolverine7230 wrote:Why are we assuming all series take place concurrently with the main series?

Remember Doom and Strange have been there for '8 years'.
To be fair, "before Secret Wars #2" and "pretty much anywhere, really" could mean six years ago.
wolverine7230 wrote:Although there are flashbacks in Siege to 30 years ago, if I remember correctly.
It's mentioned in Runaways v4 that Doom's academy (whatever it was called, I already forget) has been around for 60 years. But it's also pointed out in various places that memories have been altered to make inhabitants think Battleworld is the way things have always been. It seems that anything that's shown to have happened more than "eight years ago" is a false memory.

Also, it's not like Valeria is in her 40s. Anything with her (or Franklin) appearing in it has to be recent (which seems to be the books I've been reading first).

-side note-
It could be argued that any "older" flashbacks that only deal with that reality/domain could be real, assuming the flashback doesn't have any Battleworld elements. So if there are flashback to thirty years ago in Age of Apocalypse v3, they could have still happened in that AoA reality (pre-Multiversal collapse); but if Apocalypse became a Baron thirty years ago, well, that plainly doesn't work in the context of Battleworld only having been around for eight years.

* * *

Where Monsters Dwell v2 #1-5 doesn't have Strange, Doom or any Thors. It can happen pretty much anywhere, really.

Civil War v2 #1-5 doesn't have Strange, Doom or any Thors. It can happen pretty much anywhere, really. It also has flashback to "six years ago."

Infinity Gauntlet v2 #1-5 doesn't have Strange, Doom or any Thors. It can happen pretty much anywhere, really. Also, alternate Thanos and Star-Lord (not the imported real deals) appear here, for what it's worth.
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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Apr 15, 2016 10:15 am

Secret Wars #2 references Old Man Logan; old Wolverine is in the middle of his trek during Secret Wars #2, so Old Man Logan has to start before Secret Wars #2, and end sometime after it. So where’s the break?

Old Wolverine doesn’t even start his trek until the end of issue #1, so it can’t be there (Strange wouldn’t have heard about it yet). #2 continues from #1, and #3 continues from #2. He’s being chased by a single Thor through these issues, so Strange wouldn’t have heard about it yet. In #3, a different Thor drops old Wolverine in the Badlands (a standard Battleworld punishment), so the break should be before this (because now, the matter has been settled). So, during #3, then (between pages 11-12).

#3 continues into #4-5, where old Wolverine finds himself in the combined Manhattan region seen in Ultimate End #1-5. Lots of these characters show up in Old Man Logan #5, so where does THAT go?

ULTEND 1-FB starts “three weeks ago.” ULTEND 1-FB-FB happens shortly before that. ULTEND 2 picks up from there and spans some time. ULTEND 3 starts “two weeks ago” and spans some time, and ULTEND 3-FB happens during ULTEND 2. ULTEND 4 picks up from #3’s end, and spans some time. Doom (and Valeria) appear, doing what Strange used to, so this is likely after Strange’s death. #4 ends where #1 started. Also, Miles Morales shows up in ULTEND 4. #5 picks up from #4’s end, and old wolverine is already there at the end of ULTEND 4. Then there’s a break, then the end of ULTEND 5 overlaps with the big fight at the end of the Secret War mini.

Both Old Man Logan #5 and ULTEND 5 have a few pages that happen after the Multiverse is restored.

Putting it all together:

OML 1-3 (1-11)
SECWARS 2
ULTEND 1-FB-FB
ULTEND 1-FB
ULTEND 2 (1-10)
OML 3 (12-20)
SECWARS 3-5
ULTEND 3-FB
ULTEND 2 (11-20)
ULTEND 3
ULTEND 4 (1-13)
OML 4-5 (1-10)
SECWARS 6
ULTEND 4 (14-18)
ULTEND 1
ULTEND 4 (21-22)
ULTEND 5 (1-17)
SECWARS 7
SECWARS 8 ~ OLM 5 (11-16) ~ ULTEND 5 (18-28) (not actually concurrent; just listed this way for brevity)
SECWARS 9
ULTEND 5 (29-32)
OML 5 (17-20)

An Age of Apocalypse-type region appears in Old Man Logan #2-3, so I guess I’ll be reading Age of Apocalypse v3 #1-5 next!
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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Somebody » Fri Apr 15, 2016 11:35 am

Col_Fury wrote:An Age of Apocalypse-type region appears in Old Man Logan #2-3, so I guess I’ll be reading Age of Apocalypse v3 #1-5 next!
Ah. This means you're going to encounter the single biggest continuity flub of the entire event (at least a 2.3 on the Bendis Scale - an irreconcilable A->B->A loop). There are several unpalatable options to break it (which is why I suggested reading Inhumans: Attlan Rising before AoA!), but it's there.

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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Apr 15, 2016 8:47 pm

I got thoroughly distracted by Age of Ultron vs. Marvel Zombies (James Robinson & Steve Pugh with JIM HAMMOND!), which led to further distractions. These things happen.

AOUV.M/Z 1-4 features the shield (which turns out to be the Thing later in the crossover). Ms. America from A-Force shows up on the shield here, so this is after A-Force #1-5.

M/Z6 1-4 features the shield and the army of Cyclops clones (the Endless Summers) in the first issue; the rest is a journey through the deadlands. Could happen pretty much anywhere (unless this Elsa Bloodstone appears somewhere else).

SIEGE2 1-4 also features Ms. America, so after AFOR 1-5 (she’s already here, not arriving, so this is likely after AOUV.M/Z 1-4). Spans three weeks between issues 1-2, then 2-4 spans two days, and ends with the shield getting up and walking away (concurrent with SECWARS 6’s end). Any appearances of Thing-as-the shield have to be before (or during) this mini.

Putting most of it together:

SECWARS 2
AFOR 1-5
AOUV.M/Z 1-4
SIEGE2 1
SECWARS 3-5
SIEGE2 2-3
SECWARS 6 ~ SIEGE2 4 (again, not the whole issue; just listed this way for brevity)

It sounds like I’ll be reading Inhumans before AoA. :)
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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Col_Fury » Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:24 pm

INHS:AR 1-5 happens pretty quickly (like, over a few days), has a bts appearance by Dr. Strange, actual appearances by Doom, an appearance by an alternate Star-Lord and happens before Civil War v2 #1-5 (after the flashbacks and before the main story). Because of Strange, at least before SECWARS 3, and probably before SECWARS 2.

The Star-Lord here has to be an alternate. The real Star-Lord doesn’t venture out into Battleworld until after Strange’s death. Since Strange is alive, this is before Star-Lord-616 is in Battleworld, so this can’t be the real Star-Lord. Of course, the real Star-Lord ends up doing the same thing this Star-Lord is doing here, which is singing in a night club.

The mini starts with Medusa ruling Attilan and Black Bolt leading the resistance. At the end, Doom resets everyone’s memories and puts Black Bolt in charge of Attilan and Medusa leading the resistance. Doom mentions this isn’t the first time he’s reset things in New Attilan; it seems to be a running experiment that’s been going on for a while.

Also, Maestro appears here.

*

FIMP 1-5 happens pretty quickly, but ends with Maestro forever trapped in a hallucination. Hmn.

Maestro is around for the big fight at the end of the crossover where the Multiverse is restored, so this mini can’t happen after that. The handbook entry on Dystopia (Maestro’s domain) keeps it vague as to whether he was actually trapped forever in the hallucination. I suppose this could have happened a while back and Maestro eventually got out of it (or was released) and calmed down/had his memories/personality tampered with by Doom.

*

Planet Hulk #1-5 has Doom and Strange, so this is at least before SECWARS 3, and probably before SECWARS 2. Holocaust appears in flashback, and it’s mentioned that Holocaust’s domain was annexed by Apocalypse.

Apocalypse and at least one of his horsemen (Holocaust) appear in SECWARS 2, and it’s mentioned that all his current horsemen are former Barons defeated by Apocalypse (he beats the baron, annexes the territory and makes the former baron one of his horsemen). The Holocaust appearing in Planet Hulk is mentioned as being defeated by Apocalypse in one of the flashbacks, so that all fits with what’s revealed in SECWARS 2.

Side note: one of Apocalypse’s horsemen in Old Man Logan is Sabretooth. Holocaust appears as one of Apocalypse’s horsemen in SECWARS 2.

*

In AOA3 1-5, Apocalypse’s horsemen are Holocaust, Sabretooth, Abyss & Mr. Sinister. Holocaust dies in #1, and almost everyone dies or loses their powers in this domain by the end of this mini, including Apocalypse (he dies). Also, Holocaust is noted as Apocalypse’s son in AOA3, whereas in other books he was a rivalling Baron that Apocalypse defeated (noted above). Barons are from different realities/domains, so that doesn’t fit (if Holocaust is Apocalypse’s son, then he’s from the same reality/domain as Apocalypse).

Both Apocalypse and Holocaust appear at the big fight at the end of SECWARS where the multiverse is restored. There’s no time for them to be defeated in SECWARS and then go on to die in AOA3, and they obviously can’t appear in SECWARS after they’ve died in AOA3.

It seems as though the versions in AOA3 are different than those seen in SECWARS, Planet Hulk & Old Man Logan (and probably whatever other appearances they have).

Thoughts?
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