SECRET WARS

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Somebody » Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:48 pm

Col_Fury wrote:In AOA3 1-5, Apocalypse’s horsemen are Holocaust, Sabretooth, Abyss & Mr. Sinister. Holocaust dies in #1, and almost everyone dies or loses their powers in this domain by the end of this mini, including Apocalypse (he dies). Also, Holocaust is noted as Apocalypse’s son in AOA3, whereas in other books he was a rivalling Baron that Apocalypse defeated (noted above). Barons are from different realities/domains, so that doesn’t fit (if Holocaust is Apocalypse’s son, then he’s from the same reality/domain as Apocalypse).

Both Apocalypse and Holocaust appear at the big fight at the end of SECWARS where the multiverse is restored. There’s no time for them to be defeated in SECWARS and then go on to die in AOA3, and they obviously can’t appear in SECWARS after they’ve died in AOA3.

It seems as though the versions in AOA3 are different than those seen in SECWARS, Planet Hulk & Old Man Logan (and probably whatever other appearances they have).

Thoughts?
The basic problem with saying "oh, the Baron Apocalypse seen in the core mini is from a different Domain" is... where? We have a list of Domains and a map: http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/File:Secre ... ted%29.jpg (sorry about the wikia link, couldn't find anywhere else that had the final map easily).

I'm strongly of the opinion that Doom just hammered the reset button after AOA3. Which could well take place waaay before the core series.

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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by wolverine7230 » Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:07 pm

I would make the same assumption, that Doom just reset the domain, as it were. I mean we've seen him do it before in Attilan Rising, so why not here?

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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:09 am

There are plenty of places we know existed on Battleworld that aren't on that map; Forest Hills and Holy Wood both aren't there, for example. Or Knowhere. Or all of the domains annexed by Utopolis. Or...

But, yeah, why would there be two apocalypse domains? Seems redundant. And none of those missing domains from the map are redundant domains. Hrm.

In AOA3, Dr. Nemesis is trying to get promoted to be a horseman of Apocalypse and Holocaust was Apocalypse's son (and was a horseman), meaning Apocalypse's horsemen came from his domain. In other books (including the main SECWARS title), Apocalypse's barons came from nearby domains he annexed, not from his own domain. I wonder...

What if...? AOA3 happened a while ago, and Doom resurrected Apocalypse (off-panel) after he was turned into a pool of goop. Before Apocalypse died, he made inhabitants of his own domain his horsemen (in AOA3). After his "resurrection" is when he started making former barons from other domains his horsemen (something he's known for in SECWARS & Planet Hulk). That would mean there was only one apocalypse domain and just the one Apocalypse, but more than one Holocaust and more than one Sabretooth; the first ones from his domain (seen in AOA3) and the second ones from other domains he defeated (seen in other books like SECWARS, OML, Planet Hulk and possibly elsewhere).

It's a mess, though, for sure. Any solution we come up with is guesswork.
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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by wolverine7230 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:16 am

Well, Knowhere was a moon. Holy Wood and Forest Hills (alongside both Yinsen and Mondo Cities) are parts of the City. The annexed domains of Utopolis can just be assumed to be shown as part of that domain. Same with Apocalypse's annexed domains.

Wikipedia has a pretty good list of all the domains and their sub-domains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battlewor ... attleworld)

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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Apr 17, 2016 12:53 pm

Where was it revealed that the Forest Hills and Holy Wood are/were part of the City domain? Or is this an assumption made by wikipedia?

Obviously, the map's incomplete as wikipedia points out; it lists at least 14 domains not on the map (most are from things like Secret Wars Journal and Secret Wars Too, but X-Topia from the X-Tinction Agenda mini is one of the missing domains). There are plenty of real-world reasons for that, but there it is.

What we could do, as you suggest, is say that the map is "current." If something's not shown on the map, then that story must have taken place in the past. In theory.

No Europix domain on the map? The map was made after that was annexed by Utopolis (so, after the Squadron Sinister mini). No Yinsen City or Mondo City? The map was made after they were merged into one domain, the City (as seen in the Captain Britain mini). No Holy Wood or the Forest Hills domains? Well, they were both purged from Battleworld by the Thors at the end of the Korvac Saga mini, so those domains must have been removed from the map as well. No X-Topia? X-Tinction Agenda must have occurred in the past and something happened to that domain (similar to what apparently happened to Holy Wood and the Forest Hills, or it was annexed by another domain).

We know that Squadron Sinister has to happen after SECWARS 2 (Hyperion appears in SECWARS 2 and dies in Squadron Sinister, which is where Utopolis is annexing nearby domains), so the map should reflect what Battleworld looks like as of SECWARS 6-9 (even though it was printed in SECWARS 2). In theory.
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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by wolverine7230 » Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:25 pm

I'm sure I read somewhere that Forest Hills and Holy Wood were both parts of the City.

According to wikipedia, it's made completely of sub-domains, so...

But yeah, my idea that the map is just Battleworld as it is 'now' does seem to fit best.

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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Somebody » Sun Apr 17, 2016 4:36 pm

Col_Fury wrote:It's a mess, though, for sure. Any solution we come up with is guesswork.
Hence why I said "This means you're going to encounter the single biggest continuity flub of the entire event (at least a 2.3 on the Bendis Scale - an irreconcilable A->B->A loop). There are several unpalatable options to break it (which is why I suggested reading Inhumans: Attlan Rising before AoA!), but it's there." :)
Col_Fury wrote:Where was it revealed that the Forest Hills and Holy Wood are/were part of the City domain? Or is this an assumption made by wikipedia?
The interactive map on marvel.com links The City to Korvac Saga: http://marvel.com/comics/events/323/secret_wars_2015

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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Apr 17, 2016 5:16 pm

That's odd.

And they link New Mars to Killraven. Are there any Killraven stories in any of the Secret Wars tie-ins? I haven't seen any yet.

They also link Valley of the Flame to Devil Dinosaur, even though Valley of the Flame only appeared (as far as I know so far) in Where Monsters Dwell v2. No Devil Dinosaur there.

And none of the links lead to anything Secret Wars related (well, Valley of Doom links to an interview about 1872 and Weirdworld links to an interview about the new Weirdworld, to be fair); they link to ads for TPBs of classic stories that some of these domains are based on/inspired by. Technopolis links to an ad for Armor Wars, Egyptia links to some New Warriors issues, Dystopia links to the David/Perez Future Imperfect mini from the '90s, etc.

Killraven got me thinking; IF New Mars was intended to have a Killraven story... the original Guardians of the Galaxy are from Killraven's future. These versions of the Guardians appear in Korvac Saga. Korvac Saga ended with the two domains eradicated by the Thors. The only appearance I've seen of New Mars so far is in INHS:AR, where it's a barren wasteland controlled by the Warzone domain. I wonder if the barren wasteland of New Mars was originally the Forest Hills & Holy Wood domains before they were eradicated, and now it's the New Mars wasteland?

Not that any of it really matters, and I'm not actually suggesting anything here. It's all a string of thought based on a mistaken Killraven link on an ad disguised as a map. :)

* * *

Weirdworld #1-5 happens off to the side, doesn’t involve any characters from other domains, but the end overlaps with SECWARS 9. Also, the last few pages happen after the Multiverse is restored.

*

Red Skull #1-3 has Doom, Strange (both in recent flashbacks), the shield and Abigail Brand. So at least before SECWARS 3-5 (because of Strange), and probably sometime before SECWARS 2. Happens in Killville and the deadlands.

*

Speaking of Killville, Dr. Strange appears in M.O.D.O.K. Assassin #1-5, as do some of the House of M characters (Magneto, Quicksilver, Scarlet Witch, Polaris & Gambit, who dies) and some Thors (Beta Ray Bill & Angela). Also, Sentinels from the Sentinel Territory (from Years of Future Past). 2099 is seen, but no characters.

This has to happen before Guardians of Knowhere, because this Angela dies there. Also, at least before SECWARS 3-5 because of Strange. Also, before HOM2 1-4 because Quicksilver is still with Magneto here. Years of future Past...

*

Years of Future Past #1-5 feature the classic purple Sentinels, then introduce Sentinels that look like Doctor Doom (green & grey). The Sentinels that appear in M.O.D.O.K. Assassin are the classic purple ones. I'm pretty sure I've seen Sentinels from this domain in other books, and they've been the classic purple ones. Years of Future Past ends on a cliffhanger, so we don't really know if the Doom Sentinels are the new standard, or if they went back to using the classic Sentinels. There's no crossover of characters from this book into other books (beyond generic Sentinel robots), so I'm not sure it matters too much.
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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:25 pm

Armor Wars #1-5 happens (over a few days, maybe a week) in the Technopolis domain, where Tony Stark is the baron and Jim Rhodes is a Thor. Jim Rhodes dies and Stark is sent to the deadlands. These characters appear in Old Man Logan #3, pages 12-20. So, this whole mini happens after Old Man Logan #3.

We'll see if this Jim Rhodes Thor shows up in the Thors mini, I guess.

*

Secret Wars 2099 #1-5 happens off to the side and doesn’t feature any recurring Battleworld characters. The status quo at the start is essentially the same as it is at the end. It can happen pretty much anywhere.

Same thing for X-Men ’92 #1-4.

Pretty much the same thing for Master of Kung Fu v2 #1-4, except Shang Chi is the boss at the end, whereas he wasn't at the beginning.
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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Col_Fury » Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:37 pm

Ghost Racers #1-4 is vague as to how long it takes to happen, but at least there’s a break in the action between #1-2. Arcade appears running the Killiseum in this series. Arcade also appears in Planet Hulk #1 doing the same thing, and the Captain America starring in Planet Hulk is seen in Ghost Racers #1. Of course, Arcade dies in Ghost Racers #4.

Planet Hulk #1-5 flashbacks
Ghost Racers #2-3 flashbacks
Ghost Racers #1
Planet Hulk #1-5
Ghost Racers #2-4

*

1872 #1-4 takes place after AOUV.M/Z 1-4, not that there’s any character overlap.

*

Mrs. Deadpool & the Howling Commandos #1-4 doesn’t have any recurring Battleworld characters (an army of Thors appear, but they’re generic). Weirdworld the location also appears. Dracula is killed and the domain is apparently left baron-less, but I’m not sure how much that matters, as I’m not sure if this domain appears anywhere else.

*

1602 Witch Hunter Angela #1-4 happens off to the side with no recurring Battleworld characters. If this Angela appears anywhere else, though, it will have to be before this mini (because she dies in this).

*

Secret Wars: Agents of ATLAS #1 happens in the Metropolitia domain. Apparently thing didn’t work out too well here, as this place isn’t on the Battleworld map.

*

Howard the Human #1 could happen anywhere, really. No recurring Battleworld characters.

*

Giant-Size Little Marvel: AVX #1-4 happens over a day or so in the Marville domain. I’m not sure these count as actual appearance, but we see the Apocalypse domain characters, some Spider-characters and deadland zombies in #1, Arkon & Weirdworld and some Thors in #2, Hulks beating up Devil Dinosaur (from Planet Hulk) and Steve Rogers from 1872 in #3, and a whole bunch of gathered Cyclops’ in #4. And of course, a giant Doom looming over Battleworld in each issue.

I’m assuming these aren’t actual character appearances (I can't see a point where a bunch of Cyclops' from different domains all get together and compare hair styles), but we could use these introduction panels to place this mini (if we interpret the panels as a symbolic snapshot/montage of things that have already happened in Battleworld by the time this mini happens). If so, then this is after AOA3, Weirdworld, Planet Hulk, and 1872. Also, after the flashbacks of E if for Extinction, when that Cyclops was still a younger man. I haven't read any of the Secret Wars Spider-minis yet.
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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:43 pm

Captain Marvel and the Carol Corps #1-4 pretty much keeps to itself. Thors appear, but no recurring ones (just generic ones, and the one from this domain).

Jim Rhodes from Limbo/Inferno appears here, and mentions a guy is the baron. So, before Inferno #1-5, while Scott Summers is still the baron and before Madelyne resumes being baron.

The Hydra Empire is mentioned (soldiers are seen from a distance, but no recurring characters).

*

Hail Hydra #1-4 also keeps to itself. This could happen on either side of Captain Marvel and the Carol Corps; it doesn’t matter, really.

*

Hank Johnson, Agent of… Hydra #1 can’t be the same domain as the Hydra Empire seen in Hail Hydra. The All New All Different handbook says this is the Yorkville domain seen in Secret Wars: Secret Love #1.

*

Secret Wars: Secret Love #1
-first story happens in the Inferno domain, but doesn’t involve any X-characters. Having said that, it should happen pretty early on, when the domain is just at first dealing with the Inferno demons. So, before Inferno #1-5 and any flashbacks.

-second story feature the Robbie Reyes Ghost Rider, and happens between Ghost Racers #1-2.

-third story is the Yorkville domain. Not on the map.

-fourth story happens in an unspecified domain.

-fifth story happens in the bug world domain. Not on the map.
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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:49 am

Thors #1-4 happen pretty quickly, and of course involve a bunch of Thors. #4 overlaps with SECWARS 7.

SECWARS 7 (1-8)
TS 1-3
TS 4 (1-9)
TS 4 (10-14) ~ SECWARS 7 (9-10) (not actually concurrent; listed this way for brevity)
TS 4 (15-18)
SECWARS 7 (11-20)
SECWAR 8-9
TS 4 (19-20) (no characters appear here)

*

Secret Wars: Battleworld #1
-first story involves characters from the Limbo/Inferno domain, at a time when Scott Summers is the baron, so before Inferno #1-5 (but after the flashbacks). Strange appears, and happens in the 2099 domain (for what that’s worth). Also, some Thors appear.

-second story happens in the Iron Man side of the Warzone domain, so before Civil War v2 #1-5. Some Thors appear.

Secret Wars: Battleworld #2
-first story happens in the New Quack City domain. No character overlap between this and Howard The Human #1, and there’s no indicator if either one happens first. Blade from a different domain appears.

-second story happens in Arcade’s Killiseum. Captain America from Planet Hulk #1-5 appears, so after those flashbacks and before the main story in Planet Hulk #1-5. Probably before Ghost Racers #1. Doom appears.

Secret Wars: Battleworld #3
-first story happen in Mojo dot Mojo, an underground domain. Lots and lots of variant Wolverines here.

-second story happens in the Valley of the Flame, and features a Deadpool, Lockjaw, Devil Dinosaur and Moon Boy. Who knows if this happens before or after Where Monsters Dwell v2 #1-5. Also, ths is probably a different devil Dinosaur than the one seen in Planet Hulk #1-5.

-third story has a bunch of different Ant-Men fighting each other.

Secret Wars: Battleworld #4
-first story happens in the Egyptia domain. It’s off to the side and involves a small village, so could probably happen anywhere.

-second story happens in the Dystopia domain. The Silver Surfer here is the same Silver Surfer from Secret Wars: 2099 #1-5, and happens before Secret Wars: 2099 #1-5. The Maestro here is the same one from Future Imperfect #1-5. Probably before Future Imperfect #1-5.

Secret Wars Journal #1
-first story happens in King James’ England domain, and happens before Siege v2 #1. Also, before 1602 Witch Hunter Angela #1.

-second story happens in the Egyptia domain, but doesn’t have any recurring characters that I’ve seen.

Secret Wars Journal #2
-first story happens in Killville domain, and is likely before M.O.D.O.K. Assassin. There doesn’t seem to be any recurring characters, though.

-second story happens in Bar Sinister. Probably before SECWARS 2.

Secret Wars Journal #3
-first story happens in the Old Town domain (not on the map) and involves some Domain of Apocalypse characters. Old Town seems to be REALLY intended to be the Marvel Noir characters.

-second story happens in Greenland, after Planet Hulk #1 (second story) and before Planet Hulk #1-5.

Secret Wars Journal #4
-first story happens on the shield and has characters from other domains (Punisher from Egyptia, Iron Fist from Apocalypse domain, Mole Man from Technopolis). Before Armor Wars #1-5 & Siege v2 #1-4.

-second story happens in the Sentinel Territories, before Years of Future Past.

Secret Wars Journal #5
-first story happens in the Wastelands, before Old Man Logan #1.

-second story happens in the Westchester domain, after X-Men ’92 #1-4. Doom appears. Devi Dinosaur from Secret Wars: Battleworld #3/2 appears in flashback, as does Maestro, Monster Metropolis folks (from Mrs. Deadpool), Hydra agents and MODOK from Killville.

Secret Wars Too #1
-first story is a Marvel bullpen story

-second story is Battleworld’s Earth-617 domain, where Aunt May and Uncle Ben are greedy bastards.

-third story has Ms. America (from A-Force and later Siege v2) and Lady Kate Bishop (from Secret Wars Journal #1 and later Siege v2) hopping between domains looking for pizza. Happens after Secret Was: Battleworld #3/2, after Secret Wars: Battleworld #4, and either before or after M.O.D.O.K. Assassin.

-fourth story happens on Earth-616 shortly before the final incursion.

-fifth story happes in a domain where Galactus has a food blog.

-sixth story happen in domain XXX, has three Cyclops’ and a Jean Grey who likes to date bears.

-seventh story has Marvel characters hanging out in a cafeteria while a documentary is filmed about Doctor Doom.
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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:47 pm

ASM: Renew Your Vows #1-5 pretty much sticks to itself. No recurring characters appear and could happen pretty much anywhere.

Spider-Island #1-5 also sticks to itself. A Thor (a dinosaur Thor from the Valley of Flame domain) arrives at the end, but that’s it for “other” characters. Spider-Man ends up as baron of the domain, but I haven’t seen any references to this domain in other books, so it looks like that doesn’t matter. Could happen pretty much anywhere.

The second stories are one adventure in the MC-2 reality, and happens explicitly after the Spider-Verse crossover. MC-2’s not on the map.

Spider-Verse v2 #1-5 also pretty much keeps to itself. This region’s Thor shows up at the end, but it’s not a recurring Thor. I’m going to say this is the one that’s before Giant-Size Little Marvel: AVX.
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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Apr 22, 2016 1:40 am

We ended up with three types of books. The ones that tie into the main series, the stuff that’s not on the map (and so we decided they took place farther in the past), and the stuff that didn’t reference much outside its own book. Here’s the first stab:

Hank Johnson, Agent of Hydra #1 (anywhere, not on map)
Korvac Saga #1-4 (not on map)
Secret Wars: Agents of Atlas #1 (not on map)
Secret Wars: Secret Love #1 (before Inferno flashbacks)
Secret Wars: Secret Love #1/3 (not on map)
Secret Wars: Secret Love #1/4 (not on map)
Secret Wars: Secret Love #1/5 (not on map)
Spider-Island #1-5 second stories (not on map)
X-Tinction Agenda #1-4 (not on the map)
Secret Wars Journal #3 (before AOA3, not on map)
Age of Apocalypse v3 #1-5 (a while back)
Secret Wars: Battleworld #4/2 (before 2099, before Future Imperfect)
Future Imperfect #1-5 (a while back)
Amazing Spider-Man: Renew Your Vows #1-5 (anywhere)
Captain Marvel and the Carol Corps #1-4 (before Inferno)
E is for Extinction #1-4 (anywhere)
Hail Hydra #1-4 (anywhere)
Howard the Human #1 (anywhere)
Infinity Gauntlet v2 #1-5 (anywhere)
Marvel Zombies v6 #1-4 (anywhere)
Master of Kung Fu v2 #1-4 (anywhere)
Mrs. Deadpool and the Howling Commandos #1-4 (anywhere)
Red Skull #1-3 (anywhere)
Secret Wars 2099 #1-5 (anywhere)
Secret Wars: Battleworld #1 (before Inferno (but after flashbacks))
Secret Wars: Battleworld #1/2 (before Civil War v2)
Secret Wars: Battleworld #2 (anywhere)
Secret Wars: Battleworld #3 (not on map, but might not matter)
Secret Wars: Battleworld #3/2 (anywhere)
Secret Wars: Battleworld #4 (anywhere)
Spider-Island #1-5 (anywhere)
Spider-Verse v2 #1-5 (anywhere)
Where Monsters Dwell v2 #1-5 (anywhere)
X-Men ’92 #1-4 (anywhere)
Years of Future Past #1-5 (anywhere)
Secret Wars Journal #1 (before 1602, before SIEGE2 1)
Secret Wars Journal #1/2 (anywhere)
Secret Wars Journal #2 (before M.O.D.O.K. assassin)
Secret Wars Journal #2/2 (anywhere)
Secret Wars Journal #3/2 (before Planet Hulk (but after backup strip origin))
Secret Wars Journal #4 (before ARMWARS & SIEGE2)
Secret Wars Journal #4/2 (before Years of Future Past)
Secret Wars Journal #5 (before OML)
Secret Wars Journal #5/2 (after X-Men ’92)
1602 Witch Hunter Angela #1-4 (anywhere)
M.O.D.O.K. Assassin #1-5 (before HOM2 1-4)
House of M v2 #1-4 (anywhere)
RUN4 1-4 (anywhere, but recent)
Secret Wars: Battleworld #2/2 (before Planet Hulk)
Ghost Racers #1
Secret Wars: Secret Love #1/2
Planet Hulk #1-5
Ghost Racers #2-4
OML 1-3 (1-11)
SECWARS 2
AFOR 1-5 (shortly before SIEGE2)
ULTEND 1-FB-FB
ULTEND 1-FB
ULTEND 2 (1-10)
SIEGE2 1
AOUV.M/Z 1-4 (after AFOR 1-5, after SIEGE2 1)
OML 3 (12-20)
INFERNO 1-5 (between SECWARS 2-3)
ARMWARS 1-5 (after OML 3)
1872 1-4 (after AOUV.M/Z 1-4)
SQSIN 1-4 (between SECWARS 2-3)
Giant-Size Little Marvel: AvX #1-4 (after AOA3, E is for Extinction flashbacks, 1872, Planet Hulk, Spider-Island)
Secret Wars Too #1/3 (after Battleworld 3/2, after Battleworld #4, after Journal #1 & 1/2, after AFOR 1-5)
Inhumans: Attilan Rising #1-5 (before CW2 1-5, before SECWARS 3)
Civil War v2 #1-5 (anywhere)
SECWARS 3-5
CB&MDEF 1-2 (between SECWARS 5-6, must be shortly after CW2)
ULTEND 3-FB
ULTEND 2 (11-20)
ULTEND 3
ULTEND 4 (1-13)
OML 4-5 (1-10)
SLORD&KPRY 1-3 (between SECWARS 5-6, before GOKNOW 1-4)
GOKNOW 1-4 (after SLORD&KPRY, before SECWARS 6)
SIEGE2 2-3
SECWARS 6 ~ SIEGE2 4 (not the whole issue; just listed this way for brevity)
ULTEND 4 (14-18)
ULTEND 1
ULTEND 4 (21-22)
ULTEND 5 (1-17)
WWORLD 1-4, 5 (1-17)
SECWARS 7 (1-8)
TS 1-3
TS 4 (1-9)
TS 4 (10-14) ~ SECWARS 7 (9-10) (not actually concurrent; listed this way for brevity)
TS 4 (15-18)
SECWARS 7 (11-20)
SECWARS 8 ~ OLM 5 (11-16) ~ ULTEND 5 (18-28) (not actually concurrent; just listed this way for brevity)
SECWARS 9
TS 4 (19-20)
WWORLD 5 (18-20)
ULTEND 5 (29-32)
OML 5 (17-20)

Anything look odd or out of place?
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Re: SECRET WARS

Post by wolverine7230 » Fri Apr 22, 2016 9:40 am

Why does 1872 take place after AOUV.MZ?

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