Problems with Secret Wars II #7

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robfj
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Problems with Secret Wars II #7

Post by robfj » Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:24 pm

I'm still working on Secret Wars II for the Iron Man Library, and I've found problems surrounding Secret Wars II #7.

Firstly there is a clash. Beyonder places New Defenders #152 after SECWARSII 7.

BEYONDER
----
SECWARSII 6
CAD2 4
MICRO2 16
PP 18
T 363
PM&IF 121
SECWARSII 7 **
NM 36
ASM 273 (1 - 21:6)
UX 202
NDEF 152 **
PPSSM 111 (1 - 12:3)
ASM 273 (21:7 - 23) ~ PPSSM 111 (12:4 - 12:8)
PPSSM 111 (13 - 25)
SECWARSII 8 (1 - 13)
----

But a trail of breadcrumbs contradicts this:-

MR FANTASTIC
----
SECWARSII 6
FF 286
NDEF 152 **
XF 1
CA 314
A 264 **
FF 287
FF 288
SECWARSII 9
----

HERCULES
----
SECWARSII 5
HV.HRC:WTC-FB
FF 285
A 262
A 263
FF 286
CA 314
A 264 **
IH2 316 **
SECWARSII 8
----

WONDER MAN
----
SECWARSII 5
WCA2 5
WCA2 6
IH2 316 **
WCA2 7 **
WCA2 8
WCA2 9
SECWARSII 9
----

THING
----
HV.HRC:WTC-FB
TG 30
TG 31
TG 32
WCA2 3
WCA2 4
WCA2 5
WCA2 6
WCA2 7 **
SECWARSII 7 **
WCA2 8
WCA2 9
SECWARSII 9
WCA2 10
TG 33
----

Ie there is a chain of issues
NDEF 152
A 264
IH2 316
WCA2 7
SECWARSII 7

New Defenders #152 is firmly embedded in the sequence
A 263
FF 286
NDEF 152
XF 1
Avengers #263 and Fantastic Four #286 feature the resurrection of Jean Grey. In NDEF 152 Mr Fantastic tries to contact Angel, Beast and Iceman but the Defenders are deep in their final adventure. That series ends and the original X-Men are reunited in X-Factor #1.

Beyonder's appearance in NDEF 152 is integral to the plot. The reason it is put after SECWARSII 7 is that it is included in the list of apps at the end of that issue. So one solution could be to ignore that and move NDEF 152 in Beyonder's timeline. It wouldn't be the 1st time.

But I have another suggestion because there are some other problems with the placement of SECWARSII 7.

That issue is mainly Beyonder vs Mephisto and a load of villains. Molecule Man, Volcana and a bunch of cosmic beings also appear, but their previous apps are other issues of Secret Wars II. But Thing also plays a major role.

His timeline places him between West Coast Avengers #7 and #8. Which is strictly impossible as Thing and the WCA are in the Cat People's Land Within in #6-7 and only return to Earth at the beginning of #8. We could try to split #8 in two, but the action is continuous in there.

The other problem is with Ultron.

ULTRON
----
WCA2 1
WCA2 2
VIS&SCRW2 2
WCA2 4
WCA2 5
WCA2 6
WCA2 7
SECWARSII 7
DD 275
----

There are 2 Ultrons in WCA2 7, Mk 11 and Mk 12, but both get destroyed. And Ultron-13 doesn't appear until Dr Doom creates it much later in Daredevil #275. So which is the robot in SECWARSII 7?

WCA2 7 does end with somebody tinkering with an Ultron head, so he could build an Ultron for SECWARSII 7 which never appears again.

Or we could move SECWARSII 7 to a place where 1 or 2 Ultrons exist, Thing is available for use, and we can resolve the NDEF 152 problem.

SECWARSII 7 shows the WCA in Thing's résumé of his past (but his words don't actually mention them). So it should occur after he 1st meets them in WCA2 3-4. Luckily there is a gap between there and #5-9 where Firebird recovers from her fight with Master Pandemonium. And Thing has walked out on the WCA in #4 but is visiting them again in #5, so there's room there for him to do other stuff.

Between #4 and #5 Ultron-12 is around and still evil. (He becomes good in #6-7 and fights bad Ultron-11 who has rebuilt himself since Secret Wars I and following Thing issues.) So Mk 12 would be the guy in SECWARSII 7.

This only alters 2 timelines:-

THING
----
HV.HRC:WTC-FB
TG 30
TG 31
TG 32
WCA2 3
WCA2 4
SECWARSII 7 moved from after WCA2 7
WCA2 5
WCA2 6
WCA2 7
WCA2 8
WCA2 9
SECWARSII 9
WCA2 10
TG 33
----

ULTRON
----
WCA2 1
WCA2 2
VIS&SCRW2 2
WCA2 4
SECWARSII 7 moved from after WCA2 7
WCA2 5
WCA2 6
WCA2 7
DD 275
----

While checking for other characters affected I noticed that Death has been missed out of SECWARSII 6 where she plays a significant role.

DEATH
----
M/S-HCOC 3
FF 257
SECWARSII 6 added because missed out
SECWARSII 7
PPSSM 111
PP 20
----

Also as noted above for Thing his whole WCA stint in #3-10 including SECWARSII 7 occurs between his own #32 and #33. But Sharon Ventura mistakenly has SECWARSII 7 between TG 31 and 32.

MS. MARVEL II/SHARON VENTURA
TG 27
TG 30
TG 31
SECWARSII 7
TG 32
TG 33
----

However I think this is an even bigger mistake because I don't believe she's even *in* the issue. Grand Comics Database agrees with me. Marvel Wiki also doesn't see her, but interestingly it has the Carol Danvers Ms Marvel in a flashback. The order the Wiki lists its characters tells me they've mistaken Mockingbird in the West Coast Avengers in Thing's memory for Carol. comicbookdb *does* list the Sharon Ventura Ms Marvel but, unless they think the damsel that Thing is defending in a film he's starring in is her, I don't know where they find her. She's surely not 1 of the horde of villains. And Thing never interacts with anyone who could be her.

So, if you *can* find her in the issue her app should be moved to between TG 32 and TG 33. But for my money the correct version is:-

MS. MARVEL II/SHARON VENTURA
TG 27
TG 30
TG 31
(SECWARSII 7 deleted)
TG 32
TG 33
----

Other characters aren't affected by the change even if they have a local sequence of apps. Eg Crimson Dynamo V goes from SECWARSII 7 to X-Factor #1 which is certainly valid in the new scheme but was thrown into doubt by the discrepancy I discovered.

Dr Doom is also worth mentioning.

DR DOOM
----
M/S-HSECWARS 12
1985 1
FF 288 (22)
SECWARSII 7
M/GN:EDOOM
----

Note that SECWARSII 7 in his timeline is in the same anomalous position as the Emperor Doom GN. It's after FF 288 which the Beyonder's timeline (and Secret Wars II itself) has after SECWARSII 8. Ie for everyone else SECWARSII 7 is really in the time when Dr Doom didn't actually exist as himself. But this problem exists even without my changes, and I'm not going to touch it (at least not now).

Michael
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Re: Problems with Secret Wars II #7

Post by Michael » Mon Aug 29, 2016 10:10 pm

OK, a couple points:
1) Ben is on an island where a movie is being filmed in Thing 31 and returns home in Thing 32. Since Ben is on an island where a movie is being filmed in Secret Wars II 7, it would make sense if these were intended to be the same movie/island and Secret Wars II takes place between Thing 31 and 32.
2)West Coast Avengers 5 seems to be intended to take place the day after West Coast Avengers 4 since Wonder Man says to Tigra "we never made it down here last night" but for a contrary opinion see the supermegamonkey website:
http://www.supermegamonkey.net/chronoco ... rs_5.shtml

robfj
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Re: Problems with Secret Wars II #7

Post by robfj » Tue Aug 30, 2016 1:12 pm

I take your point 1. I hadn't looked back at Thing #31-32 because we already had SECWARSII 7 way beyond that and I was moving it back from there. TG 32 is placed before he 'joins' the WCA so this would mean moving SWII#7 before the whole of the WCA2 series. At 1st glance I can't see anything wrong with that but I'll go investigate/think and be back soon.

This would allow point 2 to go away because WCA2 4 and 5 can then be as close as we want to make them.

robfj
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Re: Problems with Secret Wars II #7

Post by robfj » Wed Aug 31, 2016 6:17 am

Unfortunately linking SECWARSII 7 to TG 31 isn't as straightforward as I hoped.

It's true that both feature Thing involved with a movie being made on a Pacific island. And both came out in the same month so the writers probably meant for them to be the same thing. But they didn't make a very good job of it.

In TG 31 Thing is a bystander of a film about dinosaurs and ape-men (humans in Planet Of The Apes-ish monkey suits). A red animatronic dinosuar is involved, and that and the Moon Boy-like ape-men sort-of justify the cover blurb 'Devil Dinosaur the movie'. Sharon Ventura is a stuntwoman on the set as an ape-woman.

In SWII 7 Thing is an actor (possibly the star) in a film featuring aliens. If Sharon is seen there it can only be as the (non-ape-woman) female he's defending from the aliens.

We *could* spin a justification for combining the 2 things. Thing ruins some of the shots in the original film. That and an invasion by Godzilla makes the director give up and go home. But maybe he changed his mind between TG 31 and 32 and decided to make the best of a bad job by rewriting the script to *feature* Thing. And he either threw aliens in or they were always part of the ape-men/dinosaur plot.

MCP is obviously in 2 minds on the subject. The positioning of the (questionable) Sharon Ventura app in SWII 7 between TG 31 and 32 fits my suggestion in the previous paragraph. But for Thing we have SWII 7 after WCA2 7 and TG 31-32 before WCA2 3.

I suggested moving SWII 7 back to before WCA2 5 for other reasons. Moving it even further back to before TG 32 would still suit my reasons, but unfortunately it causes other problems.

1st there's Thing's own chronology. The West Coast Avengers appear in Thing's memories of his recent past in SWII 7, which must place that after his 1st meeting with them in WCA2 3-4. In WCA2 3 he says Los Angeles is his new home, and in 4 he says he's wrestling there. The Unlimited Class Wrestling Federation seem to move their base from Las Vegas to LA while Thing is away on the island in TG 31. And WCA2 4 came out in the same month as TG 31.

But the evidence isn't as clear-cut as that. TG 28-30 are definitely in LV. The pre-island bit of TG 31 doesn't actually say what city it is in. TG 32 is definitely in LA but *could* only be an away match for the wrestlers like the visit to New Orleans in 29. 33 isn't specific but the UCWF HQ seems to be the same building as in #30. However 34 is in LA, and any relevant statements in later issues refer to that city.

Plus Thing doesn't say anything in TG 32 about LA being a new home for the UCWF. And he seems to be returning to the same hotel room he left in TG 31. So maybe they moved from LV to LA between 30 and 31. This could allow us to move TG 31-32 to after WCA2 3-4 to meet SWII 7 in a place where Thing's memories could include the Whackos.

This would avoid the problems I hinted at above. If SWII 7 were before WCA2 3-4 then it would also be before SWII 5! And avoiding that would involve messing with the chronologies of WCA and Iron Man, and maybe more.

But of course that just exacerbates Michael's point 2. Now TG 31-32 as well as SWII 7 are between WCA2 4 and 5 which claim to be consecutive days. But the MCP also has other things definitely in that gap:- IM 202-204 and SWII 5. As so often we're faced with the choice of which in-comic references to ignore/modify.

At least I have the excuse that by moving SWII 7 and now TG 31-32 to between WCA2 4 and 5 I'm not creating a gap that didn't already exist with IM 202-204 and SWII 5. But of course by putting SWII 7 in there with SWII 5 I'm making the gap much bigger, to also include SWII 6 and all that that drags in that has to be between 5 and 6, and 6 and 7.

By this point Wonder Man's comment to Tigra should be changed to "Do you remember that night many weeks ago when we talked about meeting down here on the beach?"!

I'll provide the amended chronologies if I don't get any negative comments.
Last edited by robfj on Thu Sep 01, 2016 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

robfj
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Re: Problems with Secret Wars II #7

Post by robfj » Thu Sep 01, 2016 5:38 am

The only chronology really affected is Thing's

THING
----
HV.HRC:WTC-FB
TG 30
WCA2 3
WCA2 4
TG 31 moved from after TG 30
SECWARSII 7 moved from after WCA2 7
TG 32 moved from before WCA2 3
WCA2 5
WCA2 6
WCA2 7
WCA2 8
WCA2 9
SECWARSII 9
WCA2 10
TG 33
----

I can now give you an option for Sharon Ventura

MS. MARVEL II/SHARON VENTURA
TG 27
TG 30
TG 31
SECWARSII 7 stays here if you believe she's in the issue
TG 32
TG 33
----

Ultron's change remains the same

ULTRON
----
WCA2 1
WCA2 2
VIS&SCRW2 2
WCA2 4
SECWARSII 7 moved from after WCA2 7
WCA2 5
WCA2 6
WCA2 7
DD 275
----

As does the correction to Death's chronology

DEATH
----
M/S-HCOC 3
FF 257
SECWARSII 6 added because missed out
SECWARSII 7
PPSSM 111
PP 20
----

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