Problems with Secret Wars II #7
Posted: Mon Aug 29, 2016 12:24 pm
I'm still working on Secret Wars II for the Iron Man Library, and I've found problems surrounding Secret Wars II #7.
Firstly there is a clash. Beyonder places New Defenders #152 after SECWARSII 7.
BEYONDER
----
SECWARSII 6
CAD2 4
MICRO2 16
PP 18
T 363
PM&IF 121
SECWARSII 7 **
NM 36
ASM 273 (1 - 21:6)
UX 202
NDEF 152 **
PPSSM 111 (1 - 12:3)
ASM 273 (21:7 - 23) ~ PPSSM 111 (12:4 - 12:8)
PPSSM 111 (13 - 25)
SECWARSII 8 (1 - 13)
----
But a trail of breadcrumbs contradicts this:-
MR FANTASTIC
----
SECWARSII 6
FF 286
NDEF 152 **
XF 1
CA 314
A 264 **
FF 287
FF 288
SECWARSII 9
----
HERCULES
----
SECWARSII 5
HV.HRC:WTC-FB
FF 285
A 262
A 263
FF 286
CA 314
A 264 **
IH2 316 **
SECWARSII 8
----
WONDER MAN
----
SECWARSII 5
WCA2 5
WCA2 6
IH2 316 **
WCA2 7 **
WCA2 8
WCA2 9
SECWARSII 9
----
THING
----
HV.HRC:WTC-FB
TG 30
TG 31
TG 32
WCA2 3
WCA2 4
WCA2 5
WCA2 6
WCA2 7 **
SECWARSII 7 **
WCA2 8
WCA2 9
SECWARSII 9
WCA2 10
TG 33
----
Ie there is a chain of issues
NDEF 152
A 264
IH2 316
WCA2 7
SECWARSII 7
New Defenders #152 is firmly embedded in the sequence
A 263
FF 286
NDEF 152
XF 1
Avengers #263 and Fantastic Four #286 feature the resurrection of Jean Grey. In NDEF 152 Mr Fantastic tries to contact Angel, Beast and Iceman but the Defenders are deep in their final adventure. That series ends and the original X-Men are reunited in X-Factor #1.
Beyonder's appearance in NDEF 152 is integral to the plot. The reason it is put after SECWARSII 7 is that it is included in the list of apps at the end of that issue. So one solution could be to ignore that and move NDEF 152 in Beyonder's timeline. It wouldn't be the 1st time.
But I have another suggestion because there are some other problems with the placement of SECWARSII 7.
That issue is mainly Beyonder vs Mephisto and a load of villains. Molecule Man, Volcana and a bunch of cosmic beings also appear, but their previous apps are other issues of Secret Wars II. But Thing also plays a major role.
His timeline places him between West Coast Avengers #7 and #8. Which is strictly impossible as Thing and the WCA are in the Cat People's Land Within in #6-7 and only return to Earth at the beginning of #8. We could try to split #8 in two, but the action is continuous in there.
The other problem is with Ultron.
ULTRON
----
WCA2 1
WCA2 2
VIS&SCRW2 2
WCA2 4
WCA2 5
WCA2 6
WCA2 7
SECWARSII 7
DD 275
----
There are 2 Ultrons in WCA2 7, Mk 11 and Mk 12, but both get destroyed. And Ultron-13 doesn't appear until Dr Doom creates it much later in Daredevil #275. So which is the robot in SECWARSII 7?
WCA2 7 does end with somebody tinkering with an Ultron head, so he could build an Ultron for SECWARSII 7 which never appears again.
Or we could move SECWARSII 7 to a place where 1 or 2 Ultrons exist, Thing is available for use, and we can resolve the NDEF 152 problem.
SECWARSII 7 shows the WCA in Thing's résumé of his past (but his words don't actually mention them). So it should occur after he 1st meets them in WCA2 3-4. Luckily there is a gap between there and #5-9 where Firebird recovers from her fight with Master Pandemonium. And Thing has walked out on the WCA in #4 but is visiting them again in #5, so there's room there for him to do other stuff.
Between #4 and #5 Ultron-12 is around and still evil. (He becomes good in #6-7 and fights bad Ultron-11 who has rebuilt himself since Secret Wars I and following Thing issues.) So Mk 12 would be the guy in SECWARSII 7.
This only alters 2 timelines:-
THING
----
HV.HRC:WTC-FB
TG 30
TG 31
TG 32
WCA2 3
WCA2 4
SECWARSII 7 moved from after WCA2 7
WCA2 5
WCA2 6
WCA2 7
WCA2 8
WCA2 9
SECWARSII 9
WCA2 10
TG 33
----
ULTRON
----
WCA2 1
WCA2 2
VIS&SCRW2 2
WCA2 4
SECWARSII 7 moved from after WCA2 7
WCA2 5
WCA2 6
WCA2 7
DD 275
----
While checking for other characters affected I noticed that Death has been missed out of SECWARSII 6 where she plays a significant role.
DEATH
----
M/S-HCOC 3
FF 257
SECWARSII 6 added because missed out
SECWARSII 7
PPSSM 111
PP 20
----
Also as noted above for Thing his whole WCA stint in #3-10 including SECWARSII 7 occurs between his own #32 and #33. But Sharon Ventura mistakenly has SECWARSII 7 between TG 31 and 32.
MS. MARVEL II/SHARON VENTURA
TG 27
TG 30
TG 31
SECWARSII 7
TG 32
TG 33
----
However I think this is an even bigger mistake because I don't believe she's even *in* the issue. Grand Comics Database agrees with me. Marvel Wiki also doesn't see her, but interestingly it has the Carol Danvers Ms Marvel in a flashback. The order the Wiki lists its characters tells me they've mistaken Mockingbird in the West Coast Avengers in Thing's memory for Carol. comicbookdb *does* list the Sharon Ventura Ms Marvel but, unless they think the damsel that Thing is defending in a film he's starring in is her, I don't know where they find her. She's surely not 1 of the horde of villains. And Thing never interacts with anyone who could be her.
So, if you *can* find her in the issue her app should be moved to between TG 32 and TG 33. But for my money the correct version is:-
MS. MARVEL II/SHARON VENTURA
TG 27
TG 30
TG 31
(SECWARSII 7 deleted)
TG 32
TG 33
----
Other characters aren't affected by the change even if they have a local sequence of apps. Eg Crimson Dynamo V goes from SECWARSII 7 to X-Factor #1 which is certainly valid in the new scheme but was thrown into doubt by the discrepancy I discovered.
Dr Doom is also worth mentioning.
DR DOOM
----
M/S-HSECWARS 12
1985 1
FF 288 (22)
SECWARSII 7
M/GN:EDOOM
----
Note that SECWARSII 7 in his timeline is in the same anomalous position as the Emperor Doom GN. It's after FF 288 which the Beyonder's timeline (and Secret Wars II itself) has after SECWARSII 8. Ie for everyone else SECWARSII 7 is really in the time when Dr Doom didn't actually exist as himself. But this problem exists even without my changes, and I'm not going to touch it (at least not now).
Firstly there is a clash. Beyonder places New Defenders #152 after SECWARSII 7.
BEYONDER
----
SECWARSII 6
CAD2 4
MICRO2 16
PP 18
T 363
PM&IF 121
SECWARSII 7 **
NM 36
ASM 273 (1 - 21:6)
UX 202
NDEF 152 **
PPSSM 111 (1 - 12:3)
ASM 273 (21:7 - 23) ~ PPSSM 111 (12:4 - 12:8)
PPSSM 111 (13 - 25)
SECWARSII 8 (1 - 13)
----
But a trail of breadcrumbs contradicts this:-
MR FANTASTIC
----
SECWARSII 6
FF 286
NDEF 152 **
XF 1
CA 314
A 264 **
FF 287
FF 288
SECWARSII 9
----
HERCULES
----
SECWARSII 5
HV.HRC:WTC-FB
FF 285
A 262
A 263
FF 286
CA 314
A 264 **
IH2 316 **
SECWARSII 8
----
WONDER MAN
----
SECWARSII 5
WCA2 5
WCA2 6
IH2 316 **
WCA2 7 **
WCA2 8
WCA2 9
SECWARSII 9
----
THING
----
HV.HRC:WTC-FB
TG 30
TG 31
TG 32
WCA2 3
WCA2 4
WCA2 5
WCA2 6
WCA2 7 **
SECWARSII 7 **
WCA2 8
WCA2 9
SECWARSII 9
WCA2 10
TG 33
----
Ie there is a chain of issues
NDEF 152
A 264
IH2 316
WCA2 7
SECWARSII 7
New Defenders #152 is firmly embedded in the sequence
A 263
FF 286
NDEF 152
XF 1
Avengers #263 and Fantastic Four #286 feature the resurrection of Jean Grey. In NDEF 152 Mr Fantastic tries to contact Angel, Beast and Iceman but the Defenders are deep in their final adventure. That series ends and the original X-Men are reunited in X-Factor #1.
Beyonder's appearance in NDEF 152 is integral to the plot. The reason it is put after SECWARSII 7 is that it is included in the list of apps at the end of that issue. So one solution could be to ignore that and move NDEF 152 in Beyonder's timeline. It wouldn't be the 1st time.
But I have another suggestion because there are some other problems with the placement of SECWARSII 7.
That issue is mainly Beyonder vs Mephisto and a load of villains. Molecule Man, Volcana and a bunch of cosmic beings also appear, but their previous apps are other issues of Secret Wars II. But Thing also plays a major role.
His timeline places him between West Coast Avengers #7 and #8. Which is strictly impossible as Thing and the WCA are in the Cat People's Land Within in #6-7 and only return to Earth at the beginning of #8. We could try to split #8 in two, but the action is continuous in there.
The other problem is with Ultron.
ULTRON
----
WCA2 1
WCA2 2
VIS&SCRW2 2
WCA2 4
WCA2 5
WCA2 6
WCA2 7
SECWARSII 7
DD 275
----
There are 2 Ultrons in WCA2 7, Mk 11 and Mk 12, but both get destroyed. And Ultron-13 doesn't appear until Dr Doom creates it much later in Daredevil #275. So which is the robot in SECWARSII 7?
WCA2 7 does end with somebody tinkering with an Ultron head, so he could build an Ultron for SECWARSII 7 which never appears again.
Or we could move SECWARSII 7 to a place where 1 or 2 Ultrons exist, Thing is available for use, and we can resolve the NDEF 152 problem.
SECWARSII 7 shows the WCA in Thing's résumé of his past (but his words don't actually mention them). So it should occur after he 1st meets them in WCA2 3-4. Luckily there is a gap between there and #5-9 where Firebird recovers from her fight with Master Pandemonium. And Thing has walked out on the WCA in #4 but is visiting them again in #5, so there's room there for him to do other stuff.
Between #4 and #5 Ultron-12 is around and still evil. (He becomes good in #6-7 and fights bad Ultron-11 who has rebuilt himself since Secret Wars I and following Thing issues.) So Mk 12 would be the guy in SECWARSII 7.
This only alters 2 timelines:-
THING
----
HV.HRC:WTC-FB
TG 30
TG 31
TG 32
WCA2 3
WCA2 4
SECWARSII 7 moved from after WCA2 7
WCA2 5
WCA2 6
WCA2 7
WCA2 8
WCA2 9
SECWARSII 9
WCA2 10
TG 33
----
ULTRON
----
WCA2 1
WCA2 2
VIS&SCRW2 2
WCA2 4
SECWARSII 7 moved from after WCA2 7
WCA2 5
WCA2 6
WCA2 7
DD 275
----
While checking for other characters affected I noticed that Death has been missed out of SECWARSII 6 where she plays a significant role.
DEATH
----
M/S-HCOC 3
FF 257
SECWARSII 6 added because missed out
SECWARSII 7
PPSSM 111
PP 20
----
Also as noted above for Thing his whole WCA stint in #3-10 including SECWARSII 7 occurs between his own #32 and #33. But Sharon Ventura mistakenly has SECWARSII 7 between TG 31 and 32.
MS. MARVEL II/SHARON VENTURA
TG 27
TG 30
TG 31
SECWARSII 7
TG 32
TG 33
----
However I think this is an even bigger mistake because I don't believe she's even *in* the issue. Grand Comics Database agrees with me. Marvel Wiki also doesn't see her, but interestingly it has the Carol Danvers Ms Marvel in a flashback. The order the Wiki lists its characters tells me they've mistaken Mockingbird in the West Coast Avengers in Thing's memory for Carol. comicbookdb *does* list the Sharon Ventura Ms Marvel but, unless they think the damsel that Thing is defending in a film he's starring in is her, I don't know where they find her. She's surely not 1 of the horde of villains. And Thing never interacts with anyone who could be her.
So, if you *can* find her in the issue her app should be moved to between TG 32 and TG 33. But for my money the correct version is:-
MS. MARVEL II/SHARON VENTURA
TG 27
TG 30
TG 31
(SECWARSII 7 deleted)
TG 32
TG 33
----
Other characters aren't affected by the change even if they have a local sequence of apps. Eg Crimson Dynamo V goes from SECWARSII 7 to X-Factor #1 which is certainly valid in the new scheme but was thrown into doubt by the discrepancy I discovered.
Dr Doom is also worth mentioning.
DR DOOM
----
M/S-HSECWARS 12
1985 1
FF 288 (22)
SECWARSII 7
M/GN:EDOOM
----
Note that SECWARSII 7 in his timeline is in the same anomalous position as the Emperor Doom GN. It's after FF 288 which the Beyonder's timeline (and Secret Wars II itself) has after SECWARSII 8. Ie for everyone else SECWARSII 7 is really in the time when Dr Doom didn't actually exist as himself. But this problem exists even without my changes, and I'm not going to touch it (at least not now).