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Marvel Knights: Spider-Man v2

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 5:41 am
by Col_Fury
I’m a bit baffled by this mini.

Madame Web warns Spider-Man that trouble’s coming, then a bomb goes off and he battles (apparently, I didn’t count) 99 villains before discovering that Kingpin (and his son Richard) were behind the whole thing.

Richard Fisk died back in DD2 31 (from 2002). Assuming he wasn’t resurrected off-panel somewhere (and he likely wasn’t, given the current ASM Clone Conspiracy story), this should be before he dies. So, before 2002.

The Queen (from the Disassembled Spectacular Spider-Man arc) appears, so sometime after SSM2 20 (from 2004). Uh oh.

This thing can’t happen both before 2002 and after 2004.

And that’s not even mentioning the Shocker, Arcade and Scorpion redesigns, or Mysterio in the Ultimate Mysterio look, or Kraven and the Jackal appearing, or…

There’s nowhere for this mini to go, is there?

Re: Marvel Knights: Spider-Man v2

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 6:59 am
by Jason Doty
I found this series to be very confusing as well, so I looked at the Marvel Database. Many of the characters are listed as illusions or in FB's.

Re: Marvel Knights: Spider-Man v2

Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2017 1:51 pm
by Col_Fury
Sure, Spider-Man was poisoned (or something) in the mini, and somehow went from a train to a plane (fell out of it into the ocean) to a submarine (boarded it already submerged) to an island (leaving the still-submerged submarine) and back to New York (all in a matter of hours). Maybe it was Mysterio's fault, messing around with his perceptions, or something.

But how can Richard Fisk be an illusion/hallucination? He arranged the whole thing on a bet with his dad.

Conversely, how can the Queen be an illusion? Spider-Man didn't even know she existed until after Richard died.

I can almost get around wrong costumes. On a stretch, I can almost say "eh, it was Kraven's kid (they don't dress the same, but they look similar, maybe chalk it up to wrong costume again, or something)."

BUT! Richard Fisk has to be real, or the mini doesn't happen. If Fisk is alive, then Spider-Man has no idea who (or even what) the Queen is. She'd been in a bunker for 70 years when Spider-Man first met her. He can't hallucinate something he has no idea exists. If Spider-Man knows about the Queen, then it can't be Richard Fisk because he's already dead. If it's Richard Fisk, then it can't be the Queen. If it's the Queen…

We're stuck in a spot, and I just don't see any way out of it.

Nice art, though!

Re: Marvel Knights: Spider-Man v2

Posted: Mon Jan 04, 2021 10:48 am
by Nausiated
I know this thread is kind of dead, but I re-read this series recently and I think I have a possible explanation for it.

This series was published in the middle of Marvel's Superior Spider-Man run. So naturally, at the time, readers thought that this story took place sometime prior to those events. There are a lot of conflicting things in this story: Madame Web is alive, Richard Fisk is alive. Also, somehow, the Fisks and Arcade seem to know that Peter Parker was Spider-Man since he was lured into this trap with an ad looking for a photographer to take a family photo. Peter only takes the job because he's broke and needs to pay his gas bill. So somehow, they had to know he was not only Peter Parker, but that he was also broke and would take this photography job. Lastly, the story ends with Peter and Mary Jane meeting up and going to bed together, a real "happily ever after" Spider-Man story if there ever was one, but Peter and MJ had been broken up since One More Day. Then there are the villains who are represented. The Beetle in his original armor, Mysterio in his Ultimate Universe avatar, the Queen, and so on. It's a real hodge-podge of villains. If they are written off as constructs/illusions/hallucinations created by Arcade, it doesn't account for all the conflicting continuity.

I think people are looking at this story the wrong way. If you try to fit it into the past prior to Superior Spider-Man, you hit nothing but dead ends no matter how you try to make it fit that way. I think the dream-like quality of the story and all the conflicting items are a dead give away that this story is some kind of dream and I think the best place it fits is during the Superior Spider-Man run.

In that series, the spirit of Peter Parker continued to live on in his mind even though it was taken over by Doctor Octopus. At one point, Octavius seemingly “slew” Parker’s spirit in Superior Spider-Man #9. Parker’s mind began coming back in Superior Spider-Man #19, ultimately revealing himself in issue #25 and retaking his body in issue #30.

Peter Parker’s mind had to have gone somewhere between issue #9 and 19, and I think this "dream" is what happened during this period of time.

So I think this entire story is a dream and the only person who really "appears" in this story is Peter Parker who dreamed it after getting "buried alive" by Otto in Superior Spider-Man #9 and was woken up again in issue #19.

Re: Marvel Knights: Spider-Man v2

Posted: Fri Jan 08, 2021 3:17 pm
by Leoparis
I really like this idea of a dream of Peter Parker's consciousness during the Superior Spider-Man run.

Analysing surreal stories and working out their place in chronology against all odds is my type of challenge so here's my best shot.

Superior Spider-Man #9 is cover-dated July 2013, and #19 Dec 2013.
Marvel Knight Spider-Man vol 2 #1-5 is cover-dated Dec 2013-April 2014.

Based on those dates, rather than placing it between #9 and #19, I would place it right after #19. Parker's consciousness unburies itself and starts sifting through its memories and this creates this frantic scenario where events and characters cascade over each other.

Here are some panels which favor that interpretation:
#1 page 9 "I'm buried. I'm dead."
page 10 last panel, cf Superior Spider-Man 19 last panel of page 7. Same panel of unburying (reverse image).
#2
page 3 "I'm obviously not dreaming. I wish. I usually hate that kind of story."
page 6 "A lifetime."
#3
page 9 "We wants your brain, Spider-Man." "Not today, you don't." In SUSM 19 Doc Ock accesses some Parker memories.
#4
page 5 waking up in a bed

In essence, I would say that Marvel Knights Spider-Man v2 1-5 is concomitant with the bottom panels pages 6-7 of Superior Spider-Man 19 and expounds on the process Parker went through in those panels. It could be placed just before those panels, right after Ock triggered the Parker memories, in particular the KLH memory of unburying itself. Or the beginning of MKSM2 1 could be weaved among those panels of Parker unburying himself in such a way that the last panel page 7 of SUSM 19 matches the last panel of MKSM2 1 page 10. That version puts all the MKSM2 series from page 11 of #1 after SUSM 19. So for practical purposes I would place the whole series after SUSM 19. It matches the publication schedule and provides what happened to Parker in the five issues between SUSM 19 and 25.

Accepting that interpretation I think we can include another character as present--Madame Web. She is the first character to appear and triggers the story with these words, "I have set the wheel in motion, Spider-Man. It is your destiny to be here, young man. It is your fate to die" (i.e. "you're supposed to be alive." "Your fate is to die" means "your death will happen in the future, your fate has not happened yet.") Parker's rebirth would be the dual result of Octopus mechanically reviving the memories and Madame Web spiritually awakening Parker's consciousness/soul.

The mental representation of Madame Web is closer to that of the first Madame Web but that's to be expected in a dream, even induced. This may warrant a BTS tag or not for her. She's supposed to be in a coma but as a psychic her soul or astral form may still be able to operate. I note that while in a coma Madame Web is bts in Scarlet Spider 15-16.

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
SUSM 9
SUSM 19 remove brackets
M/KSM2 1 add
M/KSM2 2 add
M/KSM2 3 add
M/KSM2 4 add
M/KSM2 5 add
SUSM 25 add
SUSM 27 remove brackets

MADAME WEB II/JULIA CARPENTER
ASM 696
SCRS2 15
SCRS2 16-FB-BTS
M/KSM2 1-BTS add
ASM3 15
Spoiler:
Post-Scriptum: Giant-Size Amazing Spider-Man: King's Ransom ends with the resurrection of Richard Fisk.
Superior Spider-Man 4 (2024) shows that both Otto and Peter can summon allies in the mindscape. Therein, Otto allegedly summons 600 super-villains, including some who are dead such as Gibbon and Kangaroo.

SPIDER-MAN VI/DR. OTTO OCTAVIUS/"PETER PARKER"
SUSM 19 (1 - 7)
M/KSM2 1-BTS add
M/KSM2 2-BTS add
M/KSM2 3-BTS add
M/KSM2 4-BTS add
M/KSM2 5-BTS add
SUSM 19 (8 - 13:1)
SUSM 32 (1 - 15)