Captain America: White

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Col_Fury
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Captain America: White

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Feb 28, 2017 8:18 pm

Captain America: White is another of the Loeb/Sale “color” minis (Hulk: Gray, Spider-Man: Blue, Daredevil: Yellow, and this one), and it uses the same structure as the others: a “current” framing sequence with mostly flashbacks to the early days. However, the “current” portion here is circa Avengers #4, whereas the others were more-or-less current when published.

The other minis had big problems with the flashbacks, and so aren’t listed here (but the current-day portions are). This one’s no different (not as drastic as the other color minis, though), but there’s an oddity with the current day stuff…

#0 retells Bucky’s origin, and adds to the “kid” version, while completely ignoring the “black ops” additions. #1-5-FBs tell an early team-up between Cap & Bucky and Sgt. Fury & his Howling Commandos. It says it happens in the winter of 1941, shortly before Christmas, but of course the Howling Commandos didn’t exist yet at that time (the idea of them didn’t exist until after Pearl Harbor, and the Howlers didn’t have their first mission until early in 1942). Juniper’s already dead by the time of this story, so we’re even further past that (and can’t place it during their training, not that we would have). Red Skull, Baron Strucker and Sub-Mariner also appear here, and the Human Torch is mentioned.

This mini also wants to be the first meeting between Cap and the Howlers; through it Reb is trying to figure out where he knows Bucky from (apparently Reb trained at Camp LeHigh) and at the end, Fury points out that he knew the whole time that Cap is Steve Rogers (and Bucky is James Barnes) but won’t tell anybody else. Unfortunately, SGTF 13 also wants to be the first meeting between Cap and the Howlers; here, Fury doesn’t know who Steve Rogers is (or really, that there’s anybody relevant named Steve Rogers) and doesn’t recognize him out of uniform (why would he?).

If this happens before SGTF 13, why doesn’t Fury recognize Cap/Steve in SGTF 13? If this happens after SGTF 13, how can Fury have “known from the start” that Cap was Steve (I suppose he could have researched it after SGTF 13, but again, why would he? Steve Rogers is just some schmuck that peels potatoes, you know?), and how can it be their first meeting? I can ignore the dates, but I’m having trouble wrapping my head around this bit. Given the track record of these color minis, I’m not really inclined to, either.

*sigh* On to the current day stuff.

#1 opens with Cap waking up during Avengers #4, then meeting with Nick Fury to talk about the good old days. Fury’s in a S.H.I.E.L.D. uniform here, but he didn’t join S.H.I.E.L.D. until ST 135 (published the same month as A 19, but takes place between A 14-15 for Tony Stark). Oops.

Luckily, there’s a line we can use to open a gap; after Cap wakes up, Iron Man prepares to tell Cap that he’s been asleep for decades, then the next page is Cap meeting Fury. THAT page starts with the line “So they told me. To this day it just seems… impossible.” You could take “to this day” to mean some time has passed between pages, so that’s what I’m going to do.

Cap says that he’s been told Fury is still alive, but this is the first time they’ve seen each other in the current day. In A:EMH 6, Fury writes Cap a letter, so this would have to go after that. A:EMH 6 expands A 15, so after A 15-16. In theory, this meeting could be the result of that letter. Also, this would then have to be before CA6 19 (15:1)-FB, where Fury shows Cap the S.H.I.E.L.D. files on the other Captains America who served while the world thought Steve was dead.

For what it’s worth, in the current day part of #5, Fury shows Cap some statues of Cap & Bucky at Arlington, so that’s nice.

Placement suggestions:

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS
……
CA4 13 (15:2 - 15:4)-FB
A 4 (4:5)-OP
*CA:WHITE 1 (1)
MA 20 (1:2 - 4)-FB
A 4 (4:6)
CA4 13 (16:1 - 16:2)-FB
CA:MOOT 1 (14)
A 4 (5:1)
CA4 13 (16:3)-FB
CA:MOOT 1 (15)
**A 4 (5 - 5:5) (delete)
*A 4 (5:1)
*CA:WHITE 1 (2 - 3)
*A 4 (5:2)
*CA:WHITE 1 (4:1)
*A 4 (5:3 - 5:5)
CA:MOOT 1 (16 - 17:1)
A 4 (5:6 - 8:1)
**CA:MOOT 1 (17:2 - 17:5)
*CA:MOOT 1 (17:2 - 17:3)
*CA:WHITE 1 (4:2 - 4:5)
*CA:MOOT 1 (17:4 - 17:5)
A 4 (9:2)
……
CHAOS:DA 3 (22:1)-FB-FB
*CA:WHITE 1 (5 - 6)
*CA:WHITE 0-VO
*CA:WHITE 1 (7 - 23)-VO
*CA:WHITE 2-VO
*CA:WHITE 3-VO
*CA:WHITE 4-VO
*CA:WHITE 5
[CA6 19 (15:1)-FB]
A 17
……

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH
……
ST 136
IIM 13-FB
*CA:WHITE 1
*CA:WHITE 5
[CA6 19-FB]
……

GIANT-MAN/DR. HENRY JONATHAN PYM
……
A 4 (4:5)
*CA:WHITE 1 (1)-VO
MA 20 (1:2 - 4)-FB
A 4 (4:6)
CA:MOOT 1 (14)
CA4 13 (16:3)-FB
CA:MOOT 1 (15)
**A 4 (5:2 - 5:5) (delete)
*A 4 (5:1)-OP
*CA:WHITE 1 (2 - 3)
*A 4 (5:2)
*CA:WHITE 1 (4:1)
*A 4 (5:3 - 5:5)
CA:MOOT 1 (16 - 17:1)
A 4 (5:6 - 8:1)
CA:MOOT 1 (17:2 - 17:3)
*CA:WHITE 1 (4:2 - 4:5)-OP
*CA:MOOT 1 (17:4 - 17:5)
A 4 (8:2 - 9:1)
……

IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK
……
A 4 (4:3 - 4:4)
MA 20-FB
**A 4 (4:5 - 4:6) (delete)
*A4 (4:5)
*CA:WHITE 1 (1)-VO
*A4 (4:6)
CA:MOOT 1 (14)
CA4 13 (16)-FB
CA:MOOT 1 (15)
**A 4 (5:2 - 5:5) (delete)
*A 4 (5:1)-OP
*CA:WHITE 1 (2 - 3)
*A 4 (5:2)
*CA:WHITE 1 (4:1)
*A 4 (5:3 - 5:5)
CA:MOOT 1 (16 - 17:1)
A 4 (5:6 - 8:1)
CA:MOOT 1 (17:2 - 17:3)
*CA:WHITE 1 (4:2 - 4:5)
*CA:MOOT 1 (17:4 - 17:5)-OP
A 4 (8:2 - 9:1)
……

THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
……
MA 20-FB
**A 4 (4:5 - 4:6) (delete)
*A4 (4:5)
*CA:WHITE 1 (1)-OP
*A4 (4:6)
CA:MOOT 1 (14)
CA4 13 (16)-FB
CA:MOOT 1 (15)
**A 4 (5 - 5:5) (delete)
*A 4 (5:1)-OP
*CA:WHITE 1 (2 - 3)
*A 4 (5:2)
*CA:WHITE 1 (4:1)
*A 4 (5:3 - 5:5)
CA:MOOT 1 (16 - 17:1)
A 4 (5:6 - 8:1)
CA:MOOT 1 (17:2 - 17:3)
*CA:WHITE 1 (4:2 - 4:5)-OP
*CA:MOOT 1 (17:4 - 17:5)
A 4 (8:2 - 9:1)
……

WASP/JANET VAN DYNE PYM
……
CA4 13 (15:2 - 15:4)-FB
*CA:WHITE 1 (1)-VO
MA 20 (1:2 - 4)-FB
A 4 (4:6)
CA:MOOT 1 (14)
CA4 13 (16)-FB
CA:MOOT 1 (15)
**A 4 (5:2 - 5:5) (delete)
*A 4 (5:1)-OP
*CA:WHITE 1 (2 - 3)
*A 4 (5:2)
*CA:WHITE 1 (4:1)
*A 4 (5:3 - 5:5)
CA:MOOT 1 (16 - 17:1)
A 4 (5:6 - 8:1)
CA:MOOT 1 (17:2 - 17:3)
*CA:WHITE 1 (4:2 - 4:5)-OP
*CA:MOOT 1 (17:4 - 17:5)
A 4 (8:2 - 9:1)
……
-Daron Jensen

Leoparis
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Re: Captain America: White

Post by Leoparis » Sat May 20, 2017 1:37 pm

A number of casual thoughts (I'm not familiar with the Sgt Fury & His Howling Commandos material):

Winter of 41 coiuld be construed as Winter of 41-42 and that would extend the date of the Howling Commandos team-up to 20 March 1942.

Fury could have searched for Cap's real identity and face, found that it was Steve Rogers, the guy he had seen peeling potatoes.

There are already two first meetings with Nick Fury, Tales of Suspense 78 and Strange Tales 160-161 (a flashback story). Those make me wonder what prompted the placement of CA6 19 fb so early in Cap's chronology and in particular before those two issues.

The letter written to Fury to join SHIELD is a long-running subplot in Avengers only resolved in ToS 78. It didn't start with EMH.

The interpretation that "To this day" means it takes place quite later is a good one and means you can place it closer to ST 160-161 (which would match the Fury costume).

Nausiated
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Re: Captain America: White

Post by Nausiated » Mon May 22, 2017 1:40 am

For me, the idea that Fury is wearing a SHIELD uniform circa Avengers #4 doesn't really stand out as odd if you consider the fact that other stories have established that SHIELD had been around since the 1960s, centuries older if you connect them to the Brotherhood of SHIELD. I've always been of the mind that SHIELD (at least the espionage organization) has been active since the Cold War but operated clandestinely and was basically unknown to the general public. My take is that their "formation" circa the old Strange Tales stories is SHIELD going public as though they are a new organization. It would make sense really when you think about it: They'd want to keep secret during the Cold War to maintain plausible deniability and not increase tensions during that period. If you accept the Modern Age exists in the relative present, then their "formation" in the Modern Age could have been a front to make it look like they were a new organization when they really existed for decades. The idea that Tony Stark helped form the organization could have been a front as well, or at least a deception. Remember, his father had ties with Fury dating back to the 1950s and both men had ties to the Brotherhood of the Shield. It wouldn't be a huge stretch that they orchestrated the whole idea. I'd even posit that when he "formed" SHIELD, Tony was still quite the irresponsible playboy and chug-a-lug, so I wouldn't put it past him to take ideas that his father came up with and presented them as his own to be used for modern SHIELD tech.

Anyway.... Round about way of saying that Fury having a SHIELD uniform circa Avengers #4 might not be too out of place.

As for the "first meeting" between Cap and the Howlers, especially the dates listed in the story... I think this is another case where the dates are mixed up (there are a few Howler stories like that, like when they met Dracula in those old Marvel Comics Presents stories) From what I've seen there are a lot of wonky dates with Howler stories especially the Dino/Koenig situations that don't fit well with the original Howling Commandos timeline.

One could also figure that since this is Captain America recollecting this, shortly after he was thawed out, perhaps his recollection is not as clear as it should be. I mean, he didn't remember the Sub-Mariner when he was first thawed and that was explained away as Cap having fuzzy memory during those early adventures. That could also explain his recollection of Bucky's origin as matching that of the story that Brubaker retconned into wartime propaganda.

As for the "first meeting" between Cap and Nick Fury.. They did meet in 1941 as seen in Wolverine: Origins #18. That story was written around the period where the Marvels Project put forward that Fury operated in secret in Europe early in the war before Pearl Harbor. One could say that in the case of Fury acting like he had met Cap in that Sgt. Fury story was likely a deception to maintain plausible deniability for his secret missions prior to t he US entering the war, and the "first meeting" in Captain America: White was just a subject of Cap's scrambled memories post-thaw.

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Re: Captain America: White

Post by Leoparis » Wed May 24, 2017 3:06 pm

Welcome Nausiated,

These are good ideas you have on SHIELD. They only need to be picked up by a Marvel writer (and this includes the Official index writers as they have sometimes to clean up the chronology) before we can use them in our analyses.

On the subject of memory, I have seen a TV documentary as well as read the beginning of Bart Ehrman's new book which deals with the scientific advances on the subject. Basically the human mind can modify memories every time it accesses them and it overwrites the earlier memory.

This gives us a clear hierarchy of information, which has been or less the hierarchy we have been using: The correct records of the Marvel universe are the published stories starting with the modern age (Fantastic Four #1). The stories told before may or may not have happened as published. Any memory is dubious.

I can understand why most of the Loeb color books have been discarded due to their irreconciliable flashbacks. I have tried to include as much as possible of these. Since they're all told as reminiscence, we can adopt the following pattern: there are three types of flashbacks. A) Those that match the published books, B) those that contradict it and C) those that do not contradict it. We should not necessarily dismiss flashbacks C because of the presence of flashbacks B.

Hence we can mention memories A; entirely omit memories B (they're reconstructed) or possibly reinterpret them if there is an obvious solution; and index memories C on a tentative basis (they're assumed to be exact).

If somebody has a line to Marvel's editors, I'd suggest to them that any future flashback gets presented as a memory. This would avoid things like the contradictory early Spider-Man history that we have between Busiek's retelling and Slott's.

I got a nice hardcover collectings Loeb and Sale's books. I'll see if I can make a go at them this summer. Any easy way to find the previous threads?

Nausiated
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Re: Captain America: White

Post by Nausiated » Fri May 26, 2017 4:21 pm

I agree that we shouldn't entirely toss them out. Loeb slotted these stories in Earth-616, if not by the "Present Day" portions of the stories, the point was certainly made in Hulk Vol 2 #23 which includes a part of Hulk: Grey in a flashback (Ross confronting the gray Hulk at Betty's house) So I think that despite the blemishes in continuity, they are canon. The inconsistencies could all be chalked up to different memories. I'd liken these differences to be on par with when an origin story is retold and updated to match with the time (Sliding Timescale etc.)

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