The great expanding FF 176 gap

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Clive_Reston
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The great expanding FF 176 gap

Post by Clive_Reston » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:04 pm

So, as has been discussed here before (at viewtopic.php?f=2&t=8861&p=43688 ), there's a wildly improbable break in FF 176 between panels 7:6 and 7:7, where M/TIO 21-36 and SVTU 5-7 all go. That's because there's no time between FF 166 and FF 191 when the Fantastic Four haven't broken up, aren't out in space, and haven't been replaced by evil duplicates, and both Ben and Reed have their powers; FF 171-189, in particular, appear to take place over the course of about three or four days. (190's a reprint, and M/TIO 37 takes place shortly after FF 191.)

One problem is that that introduces additional dependencies. Thor 246-255, Daredevil 139-144 and Annual 4, Captain America 204-216, ASM 165-170, the Spider-Man/Doctor Octopus: Negative Exposure miniseries 1-5, Avengers 155-160, and various issues of M/TU, Marvel Spotlight, Iron Man, Werewolf By Night, Rampaging Hulk, Nova, Marvel Treasury Edition, Marvel Super Special and PPTSSM would all have to squeeze into that gap as well--it's something like 100 issues and counting, so far.

There's also the problem that Jimmy Carter hasn't been sworn in yet as of FF 178 (Ford is still president; Carter says he's being "elected next week," but obviously means "inaugurated"), and is inaugurated in M/TIO 27.

A thought: might there be some way to shuffle issues of M/TIO around to relieve some of this crowding and avoid the Inaugural Paradox? M/TIO 35-36 could well take place significantly earlier, for instance.

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Re: The great expanding FF 176 gap

Post by Russ Chappell » Mon Mar 20, 2017 9:34 pm

Clive_Reston wrote:A thought: might there be some way to shuffle issues of M/TIO around to relieve some of this crowding and avoid the Inaugural Paradox? M/TIO 35-36 could well take place significantly earlier, for instance.
We don't really move serialized books out of published order unless a) Marvel tells us, as they did with the Marvel Team-Up Index, or b) story elements demand it, as was the case with ASM2 36.

I don't really lose sleep over any number of books placed between pages of a story, if they need to be, unless there's some reason why they CAN'T be.

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Re: The great expanding FF 176 gap

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:14 pm

We currently don't have FF 178 listed in either Ford's or Carter's chronologies. Oh no!

Also, he's right. In FF 178, Ford's still President, Carter's GOING TO BE the next President, and Reagan (who is currently listed for FF 178) is a failed Presidential candidate. So this is after the election, but before the inauguration.

Also, yep, M/TIO 27 happens on January 20, Carter's inauguration.

So, in theory, FF 178 (before inauguration) should happen before M/TIO 27 (inauguration). As Clive_Reston points out, M/TIO 27 (inauguration) is currently placed before FF 178 (before inauguration). Oops!

It's been a while since I've sat down and read any of these comics in full, so I'm not sure what other factors went in to the current placements (aside from that's what the Index said). It might be a while before I'll have the chance to poke around at all of this, but if anyone wants to chip in in the meantime, please do!

(keep in mind, as Russ points out, we're not going to just plop M/TIO 27 in between M/TIO 36-37; all of M/TIO 27-whatever would then have to occur after FF 178, in theory)

Thanks for pointing this out, Clive!
-Daron Jensen

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Re: The great expanding FF 176 gap

Post by Michael » Tue Mar 21, 2017 9:07 pm

I think that we're going have to write off the "inauguration" as a topical reference. Marvel Two-In-One 26-27 have to take place after FF 175, since the Impossible Man is with the FF (and they specifically reference the previous time the Impossible Man saved them in FF 175). Reed has his powers in Marvel Two-In-One 26-27 and he loses them in issue 178 and doesn't get them back until issue 197. And Marvel Two-In-One 26-27 starts off a Deathlok plot that last until issue 34. And all those Marvel Two-In-One issues are referenced in other stories around the time- for example, Modred's and Spider-Woman's appearances are referenced in Spider-Woman 1. The index put those issues in the middle of FF 176 because there was no good alternative.

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Re: The great expanding FF 176 gap

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:09 pm

That does paint a tricky picture. Thanks!

At the very least, though, we need to add FF 178 to Carter's & Ford's chronologies… somewhere.
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Re: The great expanding FF 176 gap

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Apr 04, 2017 3:52 am

Ford’s easy. He’s in DEF@ 1, which is before FF 166 for the Hulk. DEF@ 1 -> FF 166 -> FF 178.

On to Carter. M/TIO 27 is before FF 178 for the reasons discussed above. Carter appears in X 108, which is after FF 188 for the Fantastic Four. Carter also appears in CHMPS 16, which is after X 108 for the Beast. M/TIO 27 -> FF 178 -> FF 188 -> X 108 -> CHMPS 16. Looks like X 108 is going to have to be moved to before CHMPS 16 for Carter.

Carter also appears in CB 27, which is before X 108 for Captain America. Also, CB 27 is after M/TIO 26-34 for Nick Fury. As noted, the Olshevsky Index says M/TIO 36 is “days” before the rest of FF 176. So, M/TIO 27 -> FF 176-188 -> CB 27 -> X 108 -> CHMPS 16.

CARTER, JAMES EARL JR.
HTD 8
M/TIO 27
*FF 178
CB 27
*X 108 (move to here)
CHMPS 16
**X 108 (move from here)
SSBL&WP 15/2
……

FORD, GERALD
……
DEF@ 1
*FF 178

Of course, as presented in the comics, Carter’s not President yet in FF 178 (he’s inaugurated in M/TIO 27) and Ford’s still President in FF 178. For the moment, I’m not seeing any way to move things around to make this work. I guess we could pretend FF 178 should be saying that Carter can’t help because he doesn’t have a full cabinet yet, and Ford can’t help because he’s no longer President. Or something.
-Daron Jensen

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