AC 12/2 and the re-telling of history

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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lettsmonster
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AC 12/2 and the re-telling of history

Post by lettsmonster » Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:09 pm

I am curious as to how the MCP handles a situation like the story in AC 12/2.

The appearances by the current Avengers in this story are a re-telling of the same scene from A 12, the only difference being two additional pieces of dialogue mixed in with original dialogue. At the moment, AC 12/2 counts as another appearance by the characters involved. Should it? Just looking for the reasons one way or the other.

Thanks!

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Re: AC 12/2 and the re-telling of history

Post by Russ Chappell » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:53 am

If it's a faithful retelling, meaning it doesn't contradict the "true" events, then we should make the effort to incorporate new scenes, even down to the level of inserting new dialog. A contradiction though, should cast doubt on the entire retelling.

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Re: AC 12/2 and the re-telling of history

Post by lettsmonster » Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:47 pm

I am also curious as to where the line is drawn between a new appearance and a synchronous appearance. The MCP synchronous appearance definition:

~ Synchronous appearance-a character appears at the same time and in the same scene in two or more different stories. Example: FF 243~DD 191. The most important issue in a particular character's chronology is listed first in synchronous appearances.

AC 12/2 is currently listed as a separate appearance, though merely re-creating a scene exactly as shown in A 12, the only difference being two new pieces of dialogue. Would a synchronous appearance work better in an instance like this?

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Re: AC 12/2 and the re-telling of history

Post by Russ Chappell » Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:22 pm

lettsmonster wrote:Would a synchronous appearance work better in an instance like this?
I'm not looking at AC 12/2 at the moment, but based purely on your description, the answer would be "No."

If there's dialog in AC 12/2 that doesn't appear in the original story, that dialog would be inserted in the chronologies. If it's new dialog, then by definition, it's not "the same."

Furthermore, in the definition for synchronous appearances, the phrase "appears at the same time" means "appears in two or more stories published at the same time". So, not in any sense would these be synchronous appearances.

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Re: AC 12/2 and the re-telling of history

Post by lettsmonster » Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:41 pm

Thank you for clearing up synchronous appearance for me. I didn't read "published at the same time" into it.

Let me explain a specific in AC 12/2 that was bothering me. The third panel on pg.2 of AC 12/2 mirrors the second panel on pg. 12 of A 12. Thor says the same line in both panels. The Wasp says the same line in both panels. Iron Man says something extra in AC 12/2 that he didn't say in the same panel from A 12. This was why I was wondering exactly how to characterize these events. Is that a new appearance for all the characters involved in the panel because they are standing next to Iron Man and his new dialogue? I'm fine with that, and we break down appearances at the MCP panel by panel. But in this instance we have a new appearance inside a panel in AC 12/2 that fits inside a panel in A 12. How do we characterize that?

Hope my question isn't too confusing. :roll:

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Re: AC 12/2 and the re-telling of history

Post by Russ Chappell » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:16 pm

I think I understand.

First, we break down word balloons, just like we do pages and panels.

BOOK ISSUENUMBER/STORY (PAGE:PANEL:WORDBALLOON)

Let's say that the original story has two word balloons (both spoken by Iron Man) in a panel (say, panel 5 of page 8) that shows Iron Man, Thor and Captain America. The new story has those same two balloons (on panel 3 of page 17), but it inserts a new balloon spoken by Thor in between the original two. To further complicate matters, this panel shows Iron Man, Thor and Hulk. To simplify things, we'll say that Hulk does not appear in A 12, and Cap and Iron Man do not appear in any other new scenes in AC 12/2. However Thor appears in the last page of AC 12/2, which takes place after the last page of A 12. Got it?

If a character appears more than once in the story, the inserted quote would be listed as:

AC 12/2 (17:3:2)

Otherwise, if they only appear in that panel, it would be listed simply as:

AC 12/2

I would list the chronologies like this:

CAPTAIN AMERICA
A 12

HULK
AC 12/2

IRON MAN
A 12 (1 - 8:5:1)
AC 12/2
A 12 (8:5:2 - 20)

THOR
A 12 (1 - 8:5:1)
AC 12/2 (17:3:2)
A 12 (8:5:2 - 20)
AC 12/2 (22)

Fury and some of the others may push to list Captain America and Hulk the same as Iron Man, and annotate their appearances with -OP, which is fine, but I probably would let it stand this way.

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Re: AC 12/2 and the re-telling of history

Post by lettsmonster » Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:46 pm

Thanks, that clears everything up for me.

I had yet to see an example of a word balloon break down. They're probably pretty rare. It doesn't look like it was a consideration in the analysis of AC 12/2 given the current chronologies of that story.

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Re: AC 12/2 and the re-telling of history

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:04 am

Russ Chappell wrote:Fury and some of the others may push to list Captain America and Hulk the same as Iron Man, and annotate their appearances with -OP, which is fine, but I probably would let it stand this way.
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