FF 333 and its environs

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robfj
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FF 333 and its environs

Post by robfj » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:05 pm

There is a clash in positioning of FF 333 in some chronologies. And while investigating that I found 2 other clashes nearby.

Scarlet Witch and Thor disagree with where others have FF 333. They have it after A 305-310.

SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF
----
WOSM 46
M/FAN 48/3-BTS
[A:CC 4 (14:2)-FB]
WCA2 42-45
AWC 56-FB
WCA2 46 (1 - 21)
ASPOT 23/2
WCA2 46 (22)
M/CP 38/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-306 ****
A 307-BTS ****
A 308 ****
ASPOT 22/2
FF 333 ****
SH:C 1
AWC 47-52
M/S-H3 9
A@ 18
----

THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
T 402 (1 - 2)
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
A 304
T 402 (3 - 17)
T 403-408
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-310 ****
FF 333 ****
A@ 18
----

Captain America, Dr Pym, Invisible Woman, Mr Fantastic, She-Hulk, Thing, Tigra, Wasp and Wonder Man all have FF 333 before A 305-310, eg:-

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
CA 352-354
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
FF 333 ****
CHAOS:DA 3-FB
A 304
CA 355-357
A 305-310 ****
AWC 47-49
SENSH 8-BTS
A@ 18/3
AWC 56/2
A@ 18
----

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
FF 326
FF 327 (1 - 14)
T 405
FF 327 (15 - 22)
FF 328-333 ****
A 305 ****
SS@ 2/2
A 307-308 ****
SENSH 6
CM GSSPEC
A@ 18
----


Paul Bourcier designed the current position of FF 333 in the June 2010 thread "Chronology corrections -- FF 333 etc.". He was responding to the then-existing clash where The Fantastic Four (and She-Hulk I think) had FF 333 before A 305-310 and various Avengers had them the other way round. He chose the FF's claim to be the correct one based on the fact that FF 326-333 are a continuous story and Thing becomes a normal human in FF 326. He's still human after that and appears so in A 305 which must therefore follow the FF block.

Paul proposed that FF 333 be moved back for the Avengers, and his proposal is essentially the current state. Except his suggestions for Scarlet Witch and Thor haven't been actioned. I presume this was just an oversight.

The subject was brought up again almost immediately in July 2010 thread "Which Comes First, FF 333 or A 308-310?" in which Michael pointed out the *reason* why the Avengers had A 305-310 before FF 326-333 - In A 308 they think Hercules is dead (since Evolutionary War's A@ 17), but in FF 333 they already know he's alive (returned to corporeal form in T 407 and now accompanying Thor). Michael proposed putting a gap in the middle of FF 327 and inserting A 305-310 in there to satisfy all the constraints. (From the end of FF 328 to the beginning of FF 333 the real FF (with Ms Marvel instead of Thing) are captured and replaced by evil clones). But he immediately withdrew the proposal because in FF 328 She-Hulk sees the human Thing for the 1st time, but she also sees him in A 305 which therefore can't be in the middle of FF 327.

Because no solution fits all the clues I guess MCP just stayed with Paul's version. However the split within FF 327 *does* get introduced for something else, which will have a bearing on proceedings here.

Paul's suggestions for Scarlet Witch and Thor were:-

SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF
----
M/FAN 48/3-BTS
**FF 333** (move here)
WCA2 42
WCA2 43
WCA2 44
WCA2 45
**AWC 56-FB** (add) [an extra change PB threw in]
WCA2 46
----

THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
----
A@ 18/2
M/CP 21/3-BTS
**FF 333** (move here)
----

There have been other changes since Paul's thread which have to be taken into account.

Scarlet Witch now has a suggested addition of A:CC 4 (14:2)-FB (she and Vision playing with their kids in the West Coast Avengers compound) between M/FAN 48/3-BTS and WCA2 42. There's nothing to indicate an exact order for the addition and FF 333, but I'm going to put FF 333 1st - purely to leave the family FB poised ironically just before Wanda loses the loving Vision when his emotions and personality are removed.

SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF
----
WOSM 46
M/FAN 48/3-BTS
FF 333 **** moved from before SH:C 1
[A:CC 4 (14:2)-FB]
WCA2 42-45
AWC 56-FB
WCA2 46 (1 - 21)
ASPOT 23/2
WCA2 46 (22)
M/CP 38/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-306
A 307-BTS
A 308
ASPOT 22/2
SH:C 1
AWC 47-52
M/S-H3 9
A@ 18
----

To get a clearer idea of where Paul was moving FF 333 for Thor I need to expand the Thor timeline Paul listed. I understand from the thread that the relevant chronology was as described in the 1995 Avengers Official Marvel Index. On that basis I posit the situation was:-

THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
----
T 402-408
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
M/CP 21/3-BTS
**FF 333** (move here)
A 304
A 305-310
**FF 333** (move from here)
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
A@ 18
----

A comparison with the current chronology shows that much has changed. T 402-408 (where Thor gets merged with Eric Masterson and gives up the Sigurd Jarlson id) have been moved to between A@ 18/2 and A 305-310, and M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS and A 304 have been placed within T 402 (because A 304 needs the Jarlson id to be still in play). (This was all decided by Col_Fury and Paul B in the Jul-Nov 2010 thread "FF in Thor 405".) M/CP 44/2-45/2 have been brought before A 305-310.

THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
T 402 (1 - 2)
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
A 304
T 402 (3 - 17)
T 403-408
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-310
FF 333
A@ 18
----

The obvious 1st stab at placing FF 333 is between M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS and A 304 as Paul intended. But that would now pose a problem with the chronology of Mr Fantastic and the rest of the FF. Eg

MR. FANTASTIC/REED RICHARDS
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
FF 326
FF 327 (1 - 14)
T 405
FF 327 (15 - 22)
FF 328-333
A 305
SS@ 2/2
A 307-308
SENSH 6
CM GSSPEC
A@ 18
----

They have T 405 in the gap in FF 327 mentioned earlier. Thus FF 333 can't be before T 405, and hence later amendments have made Paul's target position for FF 333 in Thor's timeline no longer feasible.

Looking back at Captain America's listing we see that he has FF 333 after M/CP 44/2-45/2. To fit in with that I'd just have to move Thor's M/CP issues back 1 step to before A 305-310.

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
CA 352-354
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
FF 333
CHAOS:DA 3-FB
A 304
CA 355-357
A 305-310
AWC 47-49
SENSH 8-BTS
A@ 18/3
AWC 56/2
A@ 18
----

But looking instead at Scarlet Witch

SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF
----
WOSM 46
M/FAN 48/3-BTS
FF 333 **** moved from before SH:C 1
[A:CC 4 (14:2)-FB]
WCA2 42-45
AWC 56-FB
WCA2 46 (1 - 21)
ASPOT 23/2
WCA2 46 (22)
M/CP 38/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-306
A 307-BTS
A 308
ASPOT 22/2
SH:C 1
AWC 47-52
M/S-H3 9
A@ 18
----

we see that for her FF 333 is long *before* the M/CP issues (which has to be true if we follow Paul's intention to have FF 333 before WCA2 42-45). (Note that the M/CP bits 38/2, 44/2 and 45/2 are part of 1 story in M/CP 38/2-45/2 starring Wonder Man.) This clash of ordering isn't confined to Cap and the Witch (as we'll see later) so moving FF 333 for her won't make the problem go away. But for now, knowing what's to come, I'll choose to align Thor with Wanda and put his FF 333 before M/CP 44/2-45/2.

THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
T 402 (1 - 2)
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
A 304
T 402 (3 - 17)
T 403-408
FF 333 **** moved from before A@ 18
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-310
A@ 18
----

The sharp-eyed reader might object that Cap and Thor now have FF 333 and A 304 in opposite orders. But that's got nothing to do with whether I put Thor's FF 333 before or after the M/CPO issues. It's because the FF won't let us put it before A 304. And that's another tale for later too.

Note that this also affects Eric Masterson's BTS appearances.

MASTERSON, ERIC
----
T 402-408
FF 333-BTS **** moved from before A@ 18
M/CP 44/2-BTS
M/CP 45/2-BTS
A 305-310-BTS
A@ 18-BTS

I'll break the post at this point and deal with the side-issues raised above in the next section.

robfj
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Re: FF 333 and its environs

Post by robfj » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:06 pm

I'll deal now with the Cap/Thor FF 333/A 304 problem.

1st I'll point out that I haven't exactly created a new problem, just made an existing one worse. Comparing the existing Cap and Thor chronologies

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
CA 352-354
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
M/CP 44/2 ****
M/CP 45/2 ****
FF 333
CHAOS:DA 3-FB
A 304 ****
CA 355-357
A 305-310
AWC 47-49
SENSH 8-BTS
A@ 18/3
AWC 56/2
A@ 18
----

THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
T 402 (1 - 2)
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
A 304 ****
T 402 (3 - 17)
T 403-408
M/CP 44/2 ****
M/CP 45/2 ****
A 305-310
FF 333
A@ 18
----

shows that the clash already existed between the positions of A 304 and M/CP 44/2-45/2.

Paul Bourcier's move of FF 333 for Cap and Thor was only

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS
----
M/CP 21/3-BTS
**FF 333** (move here)
A 304
----

THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
----
A@ 18/2
M/CP 21/3-BTS
**FF 333** (move here)
A 304
----

which wouldn't have caused a problem. (But remember the Thor move wasn't actually implemented.)

Note that the 2011 Official Index had
for Cap CA 352-354, M/CP 212/3-FB-BTS, A 304, CA 355-357, A 305-310, FF 333, AWC 47-49, SENSH 8-BTS, M/CP 44/2-45/2
for Thor T 402 (1 - 2), M/CP 212/3-FB-BTS, A 304, T 402 (3 - 17), T 403-408, A 305-310, FF 333, M/CP 44/2-45/2
There were no clashes there.

But when the M/CP 44/2-45/2 issues were brought forward (to be discussed later in a larger context) they wound up before A 304 for Cap and after A 304 for Thor. (I can't find any relevant detailed discussion on the forum for this move for these characters, but I can't actually search directly for these issues and have to do it indirectly.)
(There is a January 2011 thread "Yellowjacket flashback in Chaos War: Dead Avengers #3" which places CHAOS:DA 3-FB for Cap between CA 352-354 and A 304. There is no mention of the intervening M/CP 212/3-FB-BTS or M/CP 44/2-45/2 and FF 333.)

I can't see any reason why M/CP 44/2-45/2 and FF 333 have to be before A 304 for Cap. So I propose moving it (and CHAOS:DA 3-FB) to before them.

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
CA 352-354
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
CHAOS:DA 3-FB **** both moved from
A 304 ************ before CA 355-357
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
FF 333
CA 355-357
A 305-310
AWC 47-49
SENSH 8-BTS
A@ 18/3
AWC 56/2
A@ 18
----

For most of the other characters in A 304 it doesn't make any difference whether the 3 issues in question are before or after A 304. For example the only other Avenger is Gilgamesh and he only requires A 304 to be between M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS and A 305. There is only 1 other char to whom it matters - Puma.

PUMA II/THOMAS FIREHEART
----
PPSSM@ 7
WOSM 50
A 304
SSM 151 ****
SSM 154
----

If we compare this with Spider-Man's chronology

SPIDER-MAN/PETER BENJAMIN PARKER
----
WOSM 50
ASM:SE
ASM 315
SSM 150
WOSM 51
ASM 316
ASM 317
SSM 151 ****
WOSM 52
SENSH 3 ****
MSMK 2
----

and then with She-Hulk's

SHE-HULK/JENNIFER WALTERS
----
SENSH 1
SENSH 2
SENSH 3 ****
FF 328
SENSH 4
SENSH 5
M/CP 45/2
FF 333 ****
A 305
----

we see a chain of links which put Puma's A 304 before FF 333, agreeing with Thor and incompatible with the existing Cap chronology.



Now I'll move on to the placement of M/CP 38/2-45/2. This tale stars Wonder Man, but strangely no-one else relevant agrees with him as to where the sequence occurs. However the others don't all agree with each other either.

There aren't very many characters in this whole sequence. The irrelevant 5 for this investigation are Enchantress, Johnny Carson, Ed McMahon, Ronald & Nancy Reagan because their before and after apps are far enough away that they can fit with any of the other's placements, including Wonder Man's.

For the others I can identify 4 relevant events in WM's timeline around which the positions of the M/CP issues can be slotted. In chronological order they are:-
FF 333
WCA 42-46
A 305-310
AWC 50-52
Wonder Man has the M/CP issues after AWC 50-52. All the others have them before that.

The most popular contender for the M/CP run is between WCA 42-46 and A 305-310, populated by the WCA bunch Dr Pym, Hawkeye, Scarlet Witch, Vision and Wasp. I can only say that definitely that Beast has the issues before A 305-310, but I know no reason why he shouldn't fit after WCA 42-46 as well. I can localise Iron Man between FF 333 and AWC 50-52 (he's not in FF 333 so that end is provided via a crosslink to Tigra's chronology), but again he could easily live with being constrained to within WCA 42-46 to A 305-310. And I've just moved FF 333 for Thor so that his M/CP issues lie between FF 333 and A 305-310, and so he could fit in this group as well.

That leaves Cap and Shulk's chronologies which place the M/CP stuff *before* FF 333 which doesn't match the others at all.

There is evidence that originally everyone was lined up with Wonder Man. The 2011 Official Index as mentioned earlier has at least part of M/CP 38/2-45/2 after A 305-310, but the current chronology has it all before A 305-310 for everyone but Wonder Man. Searching the forum for something like M/CP 38/2-45/2 runs into the problem that all the elements are too short to be acceptable keywords. Specifying MCP instead of turns up many references to the Chronology Project itself.

I could find 2 threads by indirect means. The 1st was the Jul-Sep 2010 thread "MCP 38/2-45/2" itself. But this was mainly concerned with positioning the series in Beast's timeline. It does mention a problem with Scarlet Witch without going into detail - the current chronology has removed that problem. The Aug 2011 thread "X-Factor appearances between XF 40-43" expands from Beast to the rest of the X-Factor cast. It is commented that many Avengers chronologies will be affected but nothing more is said. But significantly here the M/CP issues are still left after A 305, so it probably wasn't this change which switched them round for most people.

If anyone knows any other relevant thread I'd be grateful to hear about it.

For the moment I'll assume that the switch was supposed to affect Wonder Man as well as the others but his change was accidentally left out, like FF 333 for Thor. And Cap and Shulk accidentally got set different from the rest.

There are some elements in the story which can guide the correct placement.

The colourless Vision means it must be after WCA 42-45. This in itself rules out Cap and Shulk's position before FF 333 which precedes the WCA issues. (Paul Bourcier placed FF 333 in this position, but at that time the M/CP issues were still where Wonder Man has them. For Cap/Shulk FF 333 is the only issue separating their M/CP issues from the others, which supports the idea that they were accidentally parked the wrong side of FF 333 during the M/CP move.

The Megamonkey chronology site mentions that Wonder Man in M/CP talks about the possibility of playing the WWII android Human Torch and is sensitive to the fact that Vision in WCA 42-45 has just been 'proved' *not* to be that HT as he had believed. It is argued there that this indicates that the M/CP story can't happen after AWC 50 where the WWII HT is revived, because then Wonder Man would be more worried about *his* reaction. This negates the position Wondy has the M/CP issues. I don't know if that was the reason MCP chose to relocate them.

Megamonkey also discusses why Hawkeye is with the WCA since he quit in WCA 45, but points out that he could be visiting. He's also seen at the WCA Compound in ASPOT 22/2, and ASPOT 22(/1) suggests he's still living there. And both of these tales are set by MCP chronology after WCA 42-45.

Now for the detailed changes.

For Cap I've already done 1 change so I'll add the FF 333 move to that.

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
CA 352-354
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
CHAOS:DA 3-FB **** both moved from
A 304 ************ before CA 355-357
FF 333 **** moved from after M/CP 45/2
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
CA 355-357
A 305-310
AWC 47-49
SENSH 8-BTS
A@ 18/3
AWC 56/2
A@ 18
----

She-Hulk is simpler.

SHE-HULK/JENNIFER WALTERS
----
SENSH 1-3
FF 328
SENSH 4-5
FF 333
M/CP 45/2 **** moved from before FF 333
A 305-310
SH:C 1-2
AWC 47-49
SENSH 6-9
AWC@ 4/2
ASM@ 23
A@ 18
----

Wonder Man makes the biggest leap to before A 305. His M/CP also have to after ASPOT 23/2 to keep him in line with other AWC members such as Scarlet Witch who are in all these issues.

WONDER MAN/SIMON WILLIAMS
----
A 303
A@ 18/2
FF 333
WCA2 42-45
ASPOT 21
ASPOT 23/2
M/CP 38/2-45/2 **** moved from after AWC 47-52
A 305-308
ASPOT 22/2
IH2 380-FB-FB
AWC 47-52
M/S-H3 9
A@ 18
----


But that's not all because working through these uncovered another little problem.

While comparing the chronologies of AWC members I noticed that Hawkeye and Mockingbird have AWC 48-49 before A 306-310 while the others plus Cap and She-Hulk have the AWC issues after the Avengers ones. (You'll see this if you look back at the chronologies shown earlier for Cap, Shulk, Scarlet Witch and Wonder Man.)

So I suggest a simple correction.

HAWKEYE/CLINTON FRANCIS BARTON
----
WCA2 42-45
SOLOA 19-20
ASPOT 21
WCA2 46
M/CP 38/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305
ASPOT 22-25
A 309
AWC 48-49 **** moved from before A 309
M/S-H3 9
A@ 18
----

MOCKINGBIRD/DR. BARBARA "BOBBI" MORSE
----
WCA2 42-45
A 305
ASPOT 22
ASPOT 23-BTS
ASPOT 24-BTS
ASPOT 25
A 309
AWC 48-49 **** moved from before A 309
M/S-H3 9
A@ 18
----

robfj
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Re: FF 333 and its environs

Post by robfj » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:07 pm

Summary of changes.

SCARLET WITCH/WANDA MAXIMOFF
----
WOSM 46
M/FAN 48/3-BTS
FF 333 **** moved from before SH:C 1
[A:CC 4 (14:2)-FB]
WCA2 42-45
AWC 56-FB
WCA2 46 (1 - 21)
ASPOT 23/2
WCA2 46 (22)
M/CP 38/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-306
A 307-BTS
A 308
ASPOT 22/2
SH:C 1
AWC 47-52
M/S-H3 9
A@ 18
----

THOR/THOR ODINSON/"DR. DONALD BLAKE"/"SIGURD JARLSON"/"JAKE OLSON"/"LOREN OLSON"
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
T 402 (1 - 2)
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
A 304
T 402 (3 - 17)
T 403-408
FF 333 **** moved from before A@ 18
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305-310
A@ 18
----

MASTERSON, ERIC
----
T 402-408
FF 333-BTS **** moved from before A@ 18
M/CP 44/2-BTS
M/CP 45/2-BTS
A 305-310-BTS
A@ 18-BTS

CAPTAIN AMERICA/STEVE ROGERS
----
A 301-303
A@ 18/2
CA 352-354
M/CP 21/3-FB-BTS
CHAOS:DA 3-FB **** both moved from
A 304 ************ before CA 355-357
FF 333 **** moved from after M/CP 45/2
M/CP 44/2
M/CP 45/2
CA 355-357
A 305-310
AWC 47-49
SENSH 8-BTS
A@ 18/3
AWC 56/2
A@ 18
----

SHE-HULK/JENNIFER WALTERS
----
SENSH 1-3
FF 328
SENSH 4-5
FF 333
M/CP 45/2 **** moved from before FF 333
A 305-310
SH:C 1-2
AWC 47-49
SENSH 6-9
AWC@ 4/2
ASM@ 23
A@ 18
----

WONDER MAN/SIMON WILLIAMS
----
A 303
A@ 18/2
FF 333
WCA2 42-45
ASPOT 21
ASPOT 23/2
M/CP 38/2-45/2 **** moved from after AWC 47-52
A 305-308
ASPOT 22/2
IH2 380-FB-FB
AWC 47-52
M/S-H3 9
A@ 18
----

HAWKEYE/CLINTON FRANCIS BARTON
----
WCA2 42-45
SOLOA 19-20
ASPOT 21
WCA2 46
M/CP 38/2
M/CP 45/2
A 305
ASPOT 22-25
A 309
AWC 48-49 **** moved from before A 309
M/S-H3 9
A@ 18
----

MOCKINGBIRD/DR. BARBARA "BOBBI" MORSE
----
WCA2 42-45
A 305
ASPOT 22
ASPOT 23-BTS
ASPOT 24-BTS
ASPOT 25
A 309
AWC 48-49 **** moved from before A 309
M/S-H3 9
A@ 18
----

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