Subterranean Wars

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

Moderators: Paul Bourcier, Kevin W., Col_Fury, Arthur, JephYork, Somebody

Post Reply
robfj
Big Bad
Big Bad
Posts: 121
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2011 4:50 am
Location: England

Subterranean Wars

Post by robfj » Tue Dec 12, 2017 1:38 pm

There's a problem with the Subterranean Wars Annuals. Iron Man and Sub-Mariner's are before Infinity Gauntlet but the Avengers, Hulk and Avengers West Coast ones are placed after it. But the Hulk, Iron Man and Sub-Mariner Annuals all have to occur between A@ 20 and AWC@ 6. And IM's chronology is schizophrenic because it has IM@ 12 before IG and AWC@ 6 after IG, which is impossible because the (East Coast) Avengers are prisoners of the Deviants between A@ 20 and AWC@ 6 and so wouldn't be able to take part in IG.

I think they all used to be set before IG but then 3 of them were moved to afterwards and 2 got accidentally left behind. Evidence for this is that the Official Index for Avengers and Captain America have A@ 20 and AWC@ 6 earlier than IG, in a place consistent with where the Iron Man current MCO chronology has it. In fact the only significant difference between Cap's chronology in the current MCP and that in his and the Avengers Indexes is that the Subterranean Wars Annuals have been moved to after IG. The only clue I can find in the Indexes for placing NSUB@ 1 is that Jarvis has it in that early position in the Av Index, and he still has it there in current MCP. And Sub-Mariner's current MCP chronology has it before IG, and its detailed placement is also consistent with current IM@ 12 and the early positions of A@ 20 and AWC@ 6.

But then the IM Index offers a confusing counterclaim! It has it's Annual in the position *after* IG, but current MCP has moved it to the earlier place! But also the current MCP chronology for Iron Man in this period is wildly different from his Index. The main changes apart from IM@ 12 are moving Avengers and AWC appearances around between his IM issues.

The IM Index is dated 2009. The Av/Cap Index is 2010. How does IM show up in the later Av/Cap Indexes? It isn't of course possible to recreate his whole chronology from his before and after apps there. But the partial result is compatible with the current MCP IM chronology (but with AWC@ 6 in the same pre-IG slot as the IM Annual).

This all suggests to me a sequence of changes. In 2009 Subterranean Wars was after Infinity Gauntlet. By 2010 the IM/Avengers connections had been reshuffled to what they are now but Subterranean Wars had moved to before IG. Then later it was decided that SubtW needed to be after IG and the Av/AWC/Hulk Annuals were moved, but the IM/NSUB Annuals were forgotten about and left where they were, including Jarvis's app in NSUB@ 1 which is now well before the actions in A@ 20 that he mentions there. (Note also that Jarvis is also in the IM Annual and his app there and IM's own are currently placed on opposite sides of NSUB@ 1/2 + NSUB 14.)

Given the back and forth above the question remains which place is correct? Given the last move I would presume that the position after IG is the intended one, and the IM and NSUB Annuals need to be moved to there. There is actually little in the Annuals themselves which insists on a precise location. The thread "Does Subterranean Wars take place before or after IG" seems to mention the only important factors, which pull in opposite directions. H@ 17/2 has many continuity elements (probably because it is written by the Hulk series scribe Peter David) which place it after the IG issues of Hulk. But in A@ 20 and AWC@ 6 Quasar is wearing the costume he changed from in his #25 which is before IG, therefore these Annuals should also be there. But he's also wearing this wrong costume in IG itself, and a later issue explains it away as saying he went back to the old costume during IG - and the new position of Subterranean Wars is basically straight after IG so that explanation could carry over. So that leaves Hulk to put the whole Event after IG.

As I indicated the IM and NSUB Annuals don't make any specific distinction between any part of their own series, at least within the range of the 2 options under consideration. The IM Annual would be moved from between IM 266 and 267 to between IM 277 and 278, ie it moves from just before John Byrne's Mandarin/Fin Fang Foom story to just after it. The NSUB Annual would go from between NSUB 13 and 14 to within NSUB 21 (along with IG).

In detail:-

IRON MAN/ANTHONY EDWARD "TONY" STARK
....
IM 266
NSUB 14-BTS
IM@ 12/3 } move from
IM@ 12/4 } here to
IM@ 12 } before AWC@ 6
A 336-FB
A 336
A 337
A 338
A 339
SENTRY 4-FB
IM 267
IM 268
ASM@ 25
SSM@ 11
WOSM@ 7
M/CP 78/3
M/S-H3 8/3
A 340
WM2 2
IM 269
IM 270
IM 271
IM 272
IM 273
IM 274
IM 275 (1 - 26)
IM 275/2
IM 275 (27 - 28)
IM 276
IM 277
AWC 75-FB
AWC 75
IG 2
IG 3 (1 - 10)
SS3 52
IG 3 (11:1 - 11:2)
IG 3 (11:3 - 12:2) ~ SS3 54
IG 3 (12:3 - 40)
IG 4 (1 - 3)
DSSS 33
IG 4 (4 - 40)
IG 6
IM@ 12/3 } moved from
IM@ 12/4 } before
IM@ 12 } A 336-FB
AWC@ 6
M/CP 82/3
AWC 76
AWC 77
AWC 78
AWC 79
M/HOL 1992/7
SLAP 4
....

IRON MAN IV/JAMES RUPERT RHODES
....
IM 266
IM@ 12/4 } move to
IM@ 12 } before M/HOL 1992/7
M/CP 78/3
IM 269
IM 270
IM 271-FB
IM 271
IM 272
IM 273
IM 274
IM 275 (1 - 26)
IM 275/2
IM 275 (27 - 28)
IM@ 12/4 } moved from
IM@ 12 } after IM 266
M/HOL 1992/7
KOP2 1
....

JARVIS, EDWIN
....
A 333
P/CA:B&G 2
IM@ 12-BTS } move to
NSUB@ 1/2 } before A343
WOSM 75
A 334-BTS
A 338
A 340
CA 387
CA 393
CA 394 (1 - 13)
IM@ 12-BTS } moved from
NSUB@ 1/2 } before WOSM 75
A 343
A 344
....

Note that IM@ 12/2 and /4 have immediately preceded the main story wherever it has been situated, so I see no reason to break with tradition. The other char in IM@ 12/4 is Trapster II who doesn't appear anywhere else. The other char in IM@ 12/2 is Quasimodo is before and after are both well out of range.

Moving IM@ 12 iself also regularises the app of Kala II between A@ 20 and AWC@ 6, and also the previous app for Water Witch being CA 392-BTS which was impossible in the earlier position (because of the intervening A 336-339 for IM and Cap, amongst other things). The other 3 chars in the issue were last seen in ROM 28 or 29 which is a long way back.

Just for completeness there's a character Danny Callahan who makes his only app in IM@ 12/34 which doesn't exist. He belongs in IM@ 12/5

CALLAHAN, DANNY
IM@ 12/34 - change to 12/5



We've already moved Jarvis' app in NSUB@ 1/2. for the rest:-

SUB-MARINER/NAMOR MACKENZIE
....
A 333
NSUB 13
NSUB@ 1/2 - move to after IG 6
WOSM 73
NSUB 14
NSUB 15-FB
NSUB 15
NSUB 16
NSUB 17
NSUB 18
NSUB 19
NSUB 20 (2:5 - 4)-FB
NSUB 20
NSUB 21 (1 - 6)
NW 14
IG 2
IG 3 (1 - 10)
SS3 52
IG 3 (11:1 - 11:2)
IG 3 (11:3 - 12:2)-OP ~ SS3 54-OP
IG 3 (12:3 - 40)
IG 4 (1 - 3)
DS3 33
IG 4 (4 - 40)
IG 6
NSUB@ 1/2 - moved from after NSUB 13
NSUB 21 (7 - 22)
NSUB 22
....

VASHTI
....
AF 35
AF 40
NSUB@ 1/2 - move to after NSUB 21
NSUB 14
NSUB 15-FB
NSUB 19
NSUB 21 note that Vashti's app here is within p1-6
NSUB@ 1/2 - moved from after AF 40
NSUB 34
NSUB 35
....

Vashti's apps in AF 35, 40 and NSUB 14, 15, 19,21 are in Atlantis. In the Annual he swum from Atlantis to America to warn Namor about the Subterraneans. The effort and being out of water makes the old man severely ill. But at least in the new position he has more time to recover before his next app in #34.

CARTER, PEGGY
....
A 332
A 333-VO
NSUB@ 1/2 - move to before A 341
WOSM 75
A 334
A 336-FB
A 337-VO
Q 20-BTS
T 433
CA 387
CA 388
CA 392
CA 393
NSUB@ 1/2 - moved from before WOSM 75
A 341
CA 395
....
I decided where to move NSUB@ 1/2 by looking at the SubtWars position in Cap's chronology. In fact he has the Event immediately before A 341.
Carter's apps here and in between the 2 positions are all as a member of the Avengers Crew.

The other character in NSUB@ 1/ is Stingray. But his next app is SSBL&WP 11 which I can prove is long after this period. One trail is that Punisher is in #10, which for him is after Q 42, which for Quasar is after SubtWars. So his chronology doesn't need changing.

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6327
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: Subterranean Wars

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Dec 12, 2017 4:21 pm

You're absolutely right. The Index moved the Subterranean Wars Annual crossover between volumes of the Index. If I remember right, the Hulk clues you cite were the main reason, with the added benefit of getting the Namor Annual closer to publication order. Also, Quasar's costume explanation (that you also mention) removed one of the hurdles in making it happen. HOWEVER, we obviously missed some moves here at the MCP.

Good eye, robfj. Keep it up! :thumbsup:
-Daron Jensen

Post Reply