Doctor Strange appearance in Incredible Hulk 207 references his appearance in Dr Strange 19

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Doctor Strange appearance in Incredible Hulk 207 references his appearance in Dr Strange 19

Post by StrayLamb » Sat Jan 13, 2018 9:57 am

I've just atarted reading Incredible Hulk 207, and on page 2, panel 7, Doctor Strange states that although he is no longer Sorcerer Supreme, he is still Master of the Mystic Arts, with a reference advising the reader to check out Doctor Strange 19. Defenders 46 also has a reference to Doctor Strange 19, stating that it occured prior to the events of Defenders 42-46. We know that Hulk 206-207 are referenced in Defenders 42, so that sequence cannot be moved.

I haven't read the Doctor Strange issues in detail, but i've had a cursory look through each of the issues from Tomb of Dracula 44 through Dr Strange 20, and i can't see any references of other character appearances that would hinder these issues from being placed prior to Hulk 206-207. Dr Strange 17 includes dialogue between Stephen and Clea, in which they discuss the Bicentennial, which adds weight to this sequence taking place earlier in the order, as it's current placement has the issues tipped over into the following year. So in order to make Dr Strange 19 occur prior to Hulk 207, i would propose the following changes, unless anyone can shed light on the current placement, although i believe it's simply been overlooked in the Defenders/Hulk reshuffle..

HTD 8
TOD 44 *Move to Here
DS2 14 *Move to Here
TOD 45 *Move to Here
DS2 15 *Move to Here
DS2 16 *Move to Here
DS2 17 *Move to Here
DS2 18 *Move to Here
DS2 19 *Move to Here

IH2 206
IH2 207
DEF 57-FB
DEF 42
DEF 43
DEF 44
DEF 45
DEF 46
M/SSPEC 1
M/TE 13
IH@ 6
TOD 44 *Move from Here
DS2 14 *Move from Here
TOD 45 *Move from Here
DS2 15 *Move from Here
DS2 16 *Move from Here
DS2 17 *Move from Here
DS2 18 *Move from Here
DS2 19 *Move from Here

WCA2 20
DS2 20
DS@ 1

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Re: Doctor Strange appearance in Incredible Hulk 207 references his appearance in Dr Strange 19

Post by Michael » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:18 am

One thing- WCA2 20 takes place while Strange is still in the eighteenth century after the story in Doctor Strange 17-19, so it has to take place immediately after those issues.

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Re: Doctor Strange appearance in Incredible Hulk 207 references his appearance in Dr Strange 19

Post by StrayLamb » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:20 am

In fact, WCA 20 should probably go between DS2 18 & DS2 19, despite the discrepancy in the dates. In DS2 18, Strange, Clea, and Ben Franklin are still at sea. In WCA2 20, they have just arrived in Philadelphia, and Strange is bewildered by the apparent growing relationship between Clea and Ben (date given is July 1776). In DS2 19, Strange discovers the reason behind the apparent relationship, and resolves it. They return to the present with no opportunity for the scene in WCA2 20 to be inserted after this point (date given May 5 1775). Do story elements trump dates, or do dates trump story elements.?

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Re: Doctor Strange appearance in Incredible Hulk 207 references his appearance in Dr Strange 19

Post by StrayLamb » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:05 pm

Having now read all of the issues concerned, it appears the current listing for Dr Strange is based solely around his cameo appearance in West Coast Avengers 20, with its ill-advised date of July 1776. Doctor Strange 19 has a very specific date of May 5 1775.

I'm going out on a limb and proposing the following chronologies for Dr Strange, Clea, and Wong, based on assuming the July 1776 date as being generic and incorrect, and based on story elements that make for a better read, and incorporate other references within the comics themselves..

Doctor Strange:
(These issues occur without a break)
DS2 10
DS2 11
DS2 12
DS2 13
TOD 44 *Move to Here
DS2 14 *Move to Here
TOD 45 *Move to Here
DS2 15 *Move to Here (Clea welcomes Stephen back from his battle with Eternity)
DS2 16 *Move to Here
DS2 17 (1-6:1) *Move to Here

(At this point, Stephen and Clea retrieve the stolen books from James Mandarin; Lord Pfyffe and Rama Kaliph return to England; there has to be a break here, as Stephen continues to be Sorcerer Supreme thru the following issues)

MHDS (1 - 15) (Specifically a few weeks after the previous events)
MHDS-FB
MHDS (16 - 22)
DEF 30 (Throughout these Defenders issues, Stephen remains Sorcerer Supreme)
DEF 31
DEF 32 (1 - 4)
DEF 33-FB
DEF 32 (5 - 18)
DEF 33
DEF 34
DEF 35
DEF 36
DEF 37
DEF 38
DEF 39
DEF 40
M/TU 50
M/TU 51
DEF@ 1
DEF 41
M/TE 12
SAVH-FB
HTD 8
DS2 17 (6:2-17) *Move to Here
DS2 18 *Move to Here
WCA2 20 *Move to Here
DS2 19 *Move to Here

(At the end of DS2 19, Stephen is divested of his rank as Sorcerer Supreme)

IH2 206
IH2 207 (References Stephen no longer being Sorcerer Supreme)
DEF 57-FB
DEF 42 (References Stephen no longer being Sorcerer Supreme)
DEF 43
DEF 44
DEF 45
DEF 46
M/SSPEC 1
M/TE 13
IH@ 6
TOD 44 *Move from Here
DS2 14 *Move from Here
TOD 45 *Move from Here
DS2 15 *Move from Here
DS2 16 *Move from Here
DS2 17 *Move from Here
DS2 18 *Move from Here
DS2 19 *Move from Here

WCA2 20 *Move from Here
DS2 20 (Leads directly into the Annual and the next story arc)
DS@ 1

Clea:
DS2 10
DS2 11
DS2 12
DS2 13
DS2 15 *Move to Here (Clea welcomes Stephen back from his battle with Eternity)
DS2 16 *Move to Here
DS2 17 *Move to Here
DS2 18 *Move to Here
WCA2 20 *Move to Here
DS2 19 *Move to Here

MHDS
DEF 39
DEF 40
DEF 41
HTD 8
DEF 43
DEF 45
DEF 47
DEF 49
M/TE 13
DS2 15 *Move from Here
DS2 16 *Move from Here
DS2 17 *Move from Here
DS2 18 *Move from Here
DS2 19 *Move from Here
WCA2 20 *Move from Here

DS2 20
DS@ 1

Wong:
DEF 22
DEF 23
DEF 24
DEF 25
TOD 44-BTS *ADDED - not in current listing*
DS2 14 *Move to Here
DS2 15 *Move to Here
DS2 16 *Move to Here
MHDS
DEF 30
DEF 31
DEF 34
DEF 36
DEF 38
DEF 39
DEF 40
IH2 207
DEF 44
DEF 47
M/TE 13
DS2 14 *Move from Here
DS2 15 *Move from Here
DS2 16 *Move from Here

DS2 22
DS2 24
DS2 25
DS2 26
DS2 27
DS2 28

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Re: Doctor Strange appearance in Incredible Hulk 207 references his appearance in Dr Strange 19

Post by Russ Chappell » Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:38 pm

StrayLamb wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 9:05 pm

Wong:
DEF 22
DEF 23
DEF 24
DEF 25
TOD 44-BTS *ADDED - not in current listing*
DS2 14 *Move to Here
DS2 15 *Move to Here
DS2 16 *Move to Here
MHDS

What's the nature of the BTS appearance in TOD 44?

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Re: Doctor Strange appearance in Incredible Hulk 207 references his appearance in Dr Strange 19

Post by StrayLamb » Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:01 pm

Wong, having received the bite of the vampire from Dracula, is in the three-day period before he would rise as a vampire himself, when Dr Strange transports his body to the Sanctum, and investigates the wound that has led to his death (pages 2-5), which initiates Strange's search for Dracula. I called it a behind the scenes in so far as Wong is a dead body.

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Re: Doctor Strange appearance in Incredible Hulk 207 references his appearance in Dr Strange 19

Post by Somebody » Tue Jan 16, 2018 10:17 am

StrayLamb wrote:
Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:01 pm
Wong, having received the bite of the vampire from Dracula, is in the three-day period before he would rise as a vampire himself, when Dr Strange transports his body to the Sanctum, and investigates the wound that has led to his death (pages 2-5), which initiates Strange's search for Dracula. I called it a behind the scenes in so far as Wong is a dead body.
What's the context of this - do we see (a) the body itself, (b) a coffin containing the body or (c) it's referenced, not shown, but has a meaningful effect on the story?

Only (c) would be BTS. (b) is OP (off-panel) and (a) is a full appearance.

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Re: Doctor Strange appearance in Incredible Hulk 207 references his appearance in Dr Strange 19

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Jan 16, 2018 7:51 pm

Also, to answer the earlier question, story trumps dates (or "topical references"). In my mind, at least.

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Re: Doctor Strange appearance in Incredible Hulk 207 references his appearance in Dr Strange 19

Post by StrayLamb » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:09 pm

What's the context of this - do we see (a) the body itself, (b) a coffin containing the body or (c) it's referenced, not shown, but has a meaningful effect on the story?

Only (c) would be BTS. (b) is OP (off-panel) and (a) is a full appearance.
Thanks for that - i wondered how that would work.

It's actually a little unclear. Initially it seems like what Dr Strange summons thru the Eye of Agamotto is a simulacrum of Wong, but later it appears to be his actual dead body.

Doctor Strange pulls Wong's body thru the Eye of Agamotto into the Sanctum, where he examines it, discovering he has been bitten by a vampire, but he states "Before me, a mere shadow, one given sum and substance, yet it serves as Wong nonetheless." He then has the Eye of Agamotto hold Wong in it's timeless power, then he enters Wong's mind, reliving the experience in the alley where he was bitten. Returning to his own body, he addresses the floating Wong, telling him to rest well, as he will soon be back among the living.

In DS2 14, Dracula returns to the alley to find Wong's body has vanished. Once Dr Strange has defeated Dracula, he recalls Wong to this dimension, and he appears in Doctor Sun's mansion, then together they head back to the Sanctum.

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Re: Doctor Strange appearance in Incredible Hulk 207 references his appearance in Dr Strange 19

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:25 pm

Dracula currently has TOD 44-FB right before TOD 44 in his chronology. Is this the scene that Doctor Strange watches thru Wong's mind? Was Wong attacked by Dracula?

Or, was Wong's attack shown somewhere else, and this scene is a reminder of that? I doubt it was in DEF 25, but I'm at work and can't check DEF 25 for myself at the moment.

It sounds like TOD 44-FB needs to be added to Wong's chronology...
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Re: Doctor Strange appearance in Incredible Hulk 207 references his appearance in Dr Strange 19

Post by StrayLamb » Tue Jan 16, 2018 8:51 pm

Yep - Dracula attacks and bites Wong in TOD 44-FB, which we see as Dr Strange enters Wong's mind. So Wong is actually in..

DEF 22
DEF 23
DEF 24
DEF 25
TOD 44-FB
TOD 44
DS2 14
DS2 15
DS2 16
MHDS

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Re: Doctor Strange appearance in Incredible Hulk 207 references his appearance in Dr Strange 19

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Jan 16, 2018 9:34 pm

Yay! :D
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Re: Doctor Strange appearance in Incredible Hulk 207 references his appearance in Dr Strange 19

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Jan 19, 2018 11:51 pm

Clea also needed a break in DS2 17, and we found a missing appearance for Wong in DS2 17 (page six panel one, holding the door for Kaliph and Lord Phyffe) as well as some missing appearances for (the aforementioned) Kaliph. Also, some appearances for the real person Francis Bacon. :)

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Re: Doctor Strange appearance in Incredible Hulk 207 references his appearance in Dr Strange 19

Post by StrayLamb » Sat Jan 20, 2018 1:11 am

Excellent - i do love the way everyone can chip in on this site and thrash things out. Many pairs of eyes are better at catching the details than trying to do it alone. :D

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