Patsy Walker 122-124

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

Moderators: Col_Fury, michel, Arthur, Somebody, StrayLamb

User avatar
StrayLamb
Director
Director
Posts: 2283
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:42 am
Location: a sheep paddock, along the Great Eastern Highway

Patsy Walker 122-124

Post by StrayLamb »

Patsy Walker #123 is specifically referenced in Avengers #144, during Patsy's recollections of actual events in her life. This issue, along with Patsy Walker 122 & 124, deal with Buzz Baxter's tenure in Viet-Nam, and constitute the final three issues of the series. I suggest that these three issues of Patsy Walker are canon, and should be included in the chronology, with the following characters to be ammended as follows..

BAXTER, COL. BOB "BUZZ"
DEF 89-FB
DEF 89 (15:1)-FB * ADD
PATSY WALKER 122 *ADD
PATSY WALKER 123 *ADD
PATSY WALKER 124 *ADD
DEF 89 (15:2)-FB *ADD

A 144-FB
{AA2 13}
AA2 14
AA2 15
A 141
A 142
A 143-BTS
A 144
A 147
A 149
DEF 87

BAXTER, PATSY WALKER
DEF 89 (15:1)-FB
A 144 (10:2 - 10:6)-FB
{FF@ 3}
MARVELS 2
A 144 (10:7)-FB
PATSY WALKER 122 *ADD
PATSY WALKER 123 *ADD
PATSY WALKER 124 *ADD

DEF 89 (15:2)-FB
A 144 (10:8 - 11:2)-FB
AA2 13
AA2 14
AA2 15 (1 - 4)
A 144 (11:7 - 12:7)-FB
AA2 15 (5 - 20)
A 144 (12:8 - 12:9)-FB
SMF2 1/3-BTS
A 139
A 140
MARVELS:EYE 3
A 141
A 142
A 143

WOLFE, HEDY
A 144 (10:2 - 10:6)-FB
{FF@ 3}
A 144 (10:7)-FB
PATSY WALKER 122 *ADD
PATSY WALKER 123 *ADD
PATSY WALKER 124 *ADD
A 144 (10:8)-FB *ADD (Hedy is shown as Patsy's flower girl)

M/FAN 59/2
Out in the Land Down-Under, beneath a rocky outcrop, deep within the back paddock, dwells the Stray Lamb.
vanhornluke
Major Player
Major Player
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:37 pm

Re: Patsy Walker 122-124

Post by vanhornluke »

The Avengers Index backs this up by explicitly citing those issues of Patsy Walker as prior appearances of the characters.
loki
Comic Pro
Comic Pro
Posts: 407
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:37 pm

Re: Patsy Walker 122-124

Post by loki »

vanhornluke wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:01 pm The Avengers Index backs this up by explicitly citing those issues of Patsy Walker as prior appearances of the characters.
I personally feel that most issues of Patsy Walker (and related or similar titles) can be treated like Golden Age comics - semi-accurate (to varying degrees) accounts of actual events unless explicitly contradicted.
User avatar
StrayLamb
Director
Director
Posts: 2283
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:42 am
Location: a sheep paddock, along the Great Eastern Highway

Re: Patsy Walker 122-124

Post by StrayLamb »

I think it's possible that at least some of the Patsy Walker stories going back to at least PW 114 are canon. In issue 114 Patsy and Buzz become engaged. Issue 115 has Buzz joining the army, issue 116 is Patsy's graduation, and issue 117 also deals with Buzz being away in the army. These aren't make-believe stories, but part of Patsy and Buzz's history.
Out in the Land Down-Under, beneath a rocky outcrop, deep within the back paddock, dwells the Stray Lamb.
Clive_Reston
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 474
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: Patsy Walker 122-124

Post by Clive_Reston »

I'll add that the issues of Patsy and Hedy around that time distinctly have issue-to-issue continuity that goes back and forth with Patsy Walker!

P&H 95 (1-17:2): Patsy wants to be class valedictorian; Buzz hasn't picked a career yet. Nan Brown is chosen as valedictorian.

PW 115 (1-16): Buzz tells Patsy that he's enlisted in the Army, so he can't take her to the after-graduation dance.

P&H 95 (17:3-18): Commencement.

PW 115 (17-18): The night of the after-graduation dance; Patsy goes with Buzz, who's got a few days off after basic training.

PW 116: The girls are picking careers; Nan's a student nurse, and Patsy and Hedy get jobs at the Centerville Globe.

P&H 96: Patsy and Hedy start their jobs at the newspaper.

PW 117: Patsy goes to visit Buzz in Carlson City.

P&H 97: Patsy's working with Ted Trent.

PW 118: Patsy meets Mac Danton.

P&H 98: Patsy has gotten engaged to Ted Trent, and tries to write a "Dear John" letter to Buzz. Hedy tells Patsy that she's looking forward to dating Buzz herself when he becomes a civilian; Patsy and Ted break their engagement.

PW 119: Buzz is coming home on furlough soon, but Patsy's been spending a lot of time with a mysterious man (who turns out to be her driving instructor/car salesman). Buzz arrives at the end of the story.

P&H 99: Buzz is still home on furlough.

PW 120: Buzz's furlough ends.

P&H 100: Patsy and Hedy move in together.

PW 121: Ted asks Patsy how the new apartment's working out. Patsy meets journalist Mike Herald and travels to New York, where she sees Millie the Model at a restaurant; Mike is sent overseas on assignment, and Patsy comes home.

P&H 101: Patsy is still enthusing over her New York trip, and hasn't heard from Buzz in over a month. Patsy sees a story written by Mike Herald saying that Buzz has been wounded in action in Vietnam. Buzz returns to Centerville but isn't ready to see Patsy.

PW 122: Patsy visits Buzz, who's in bad shape and breaks up with her.

P&H 102: Mike comes to visit Centerville and woo Patsy, but Hedy ends up with him, and Buzz makes up with Patsy.

PW 123: Buzz leaves again; Mike is feeling ill.

P&H 103: Mike has a heart attack.

PW 123: Hedy takes Patsy to the beach "to keep her from worrying about Buzz in Viet Nam"; Patsy is now the woman's page editor at the newspaper.

P&H 104: Mike is recuperating; his boss gives Patsy and Hedy a weekly column for which they'll be touring the U.S.

P&H 105: Patsy and Hedy go to Hollywood.

P&H 106: They stay in L.A. to hang out with some surfers.

P&H 107: They drive to San Francisco, where Cord Ryan learns to fly, and stay in California through P&H 109.

P&H 110: Cord Ryan flies them home.
User avatar
StrayLamb
Director
Director
Posts: 2283
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:42 am
Location: a sheep paddock, along the Great Eastern Highway

Re: Patsy Walker 122-124

Post by StrayLamb »

Nice work, Clive - i'll have to pick up those P&H issues as well..

Nick..
Out in the Land Down-Under, beneath a rocky outcrop, deep within the back paddock, dwells the Stray Lamb.
vanhornluke
Major Player
Major Player
Posts: 385
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2014 7:37 pm

Re: Patsy Walker 122-124

Post by vanhornluke »

loki wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:42 pm
vanhornluke wrote: Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:01 pm The Avengers Index backs this up by explicitly citing those issues of Patsy Walker as prior appearances of the characters.
I personally feel that most issues of Patsy Walker (and related or similar titles) can be treated like Golden Age comics - semi-accurate (to varying degrees) accounts of actual events unless explicitly contradicted.
Agreed. Patsy has a number of crossover stories in her various series with other indisputably 616 characters, like Millie, so I would think that those appearances should be taken into account.
User avatar
StrayLamb
Director
Director
Posts: 2283
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:42 am
Location: a sheep paddock, along the Great Eastern Highway

Re: Patsy Walker 122-124

Post by StrayLamb »

Based on the data supplied by Clive_Reston, i've worked out the following chronologies that would need to be added for recurring characters within the issues, but it needs to be double-checked, and other titles need to be collated, such as Millie the Model..

BAXTER, COL. BOB "BUZZ"
PW 114
P&H 95 (1-17:2)
PW 115 (1-16)
P&H 95 (17:3-18)
PW 115 (17-18)
PW 116
P&H 96
PW 117
P&H 97-BTS
PW 118-BTS
P&H 98-BTS
PW 119
P&H 99
PW 120
P&H 100-BTS
PW 121
PW 123-FB
P&H 101-BTS
PW 122
P&H 102
PW 123
P&H 103-BTS
DEF 89 (15:2)-FB
A 144-FB

BAXTER, PATSY WALKER
DEF 89 (14:6)-FB
DEF 89 (15:1)-FB
A 144 (10:2-10:6)-FB
PW 114
P&H 95 (1-17:2)
PW 115 (1-16)
P&H 95 (17:3-18)
PW 115 (17-18)
PW 116
P&H 96
PW 117
P&H 97
PW 118
P&H 98
PW 119
P&H 99
PW 120
P&H 100
PW 121
P&H 101
PW 122
P&H 102
PW 123
P&H 103
PW 124
{FF@ 3}
MARVELS 2
P&H 104
P&H 105
P&H 106
P&H 107
P&H 108
P&H 109
P&H 110
A 144 (10:7)-FB
DEF 89 (15:2)-FB
A 144 (10:8 - 11:2)-FB

BROWN, NANCY
PW 114
P&H 95 (1-17:2)
PW 115 (1-16)
P&H 95 (17:3-18)
PW 115 (17-18)
PW 116
P&H 96
P&H 97
PW 118
P&H 98
PW 119
P&H 99
PW 120
P&H 100
P&H 101
PW 122
P&H 102
PW 123
P&H 103
P&H 105
P&H 106

CARTER, MA
P&H 100
P&H 101
PW 122

COLLINS, MILLICENT (MILLIE THE MODEL)
DEF 89 (14:6)-FB
PW 121
FF@ 3
MARVELS 3-BTS

HALE, TOM "TUBS"
PW 114
P&H 95 (1-17:2)
PW 115 (1-16)
P&H 95 (17:3-18)
PW 115 (17-18)
P&H 99
PW 120

HERALD, MIKE
PW 121
P&H 101
PW 122
P&H 102
PW 123
P&H 103
P&H 104

MORRIS, SAUL
P&H 104
P&H 105
P&H 106-BTS
P&H 107
P&H 108-OP
P&H 109-BTS
P&H 110

ROBBINS, RONNIE
PW 114
P&H 95 (1-17:2)
PW 115 (1-16)
P&H 95 (17:3-18)
PW 115 (17-18)
P&H 96

ROGERS, DON
P&H 102
PW 123
P&H 103
P&H 104
P&H 105

RYAN, CORD
P&H 104
P&H 107
P&H 110

SLEEK, HAZEL
PW 114
PW 115

TINDALL, AL
PW 124
P&H 105

TRENT, TED
PW 116
P&H 96
PW 117
P&H 97
PW 118
P&H 98
PW 119
P&H 99
PW 120
P&H 100
PW 121
P&H 102
PW 124

WALKER, MARY
DEF 89 (14:6)-FB
DEF 89 (15:1)-FB
A 144 (10:2-10:6)-FB
PW 114
P&H 95 (1-17:2)
PW 115 (1-16)
P&H 95 (17:3-18)
PW 115 (17-18)
PW 116
P&H 96
PW 117
PW 118
P&H 98
PW 119
P&H 99
PW 120
P&H 100
PW 121
P&H 105

WALKER, STANLEY
PW 114
P&H 95 (1-17:2)
PW 115 (1-16)
P&H 95 (17:3-18)
PW 115 (17-18)
PW 116
PW 117
PW 118
PW 119
P&H 99
PW 120
P&H 100
PW 121
P&H 105

WOLFE, HEDY
A 144 (10:2-10:6)-FB
PW 114
P&H 95 (1-17:2)
PW 115 (1-16)
P&H 95 (17:3-18)
PW 115 (17-18)
PW 116
P&H 96
PW 117
P&H 97
PW 118
P&H 98
PW 119
P&H 99
PW 120
P&H 100
PW 121
P&H 101
PW 122
P&H 102
PW 123
P&H 103
PW 124
{FF@ 3}
MARVELS 2
P&H 104
P&H 105
P&H 106
P&H 107
P&H 108
P&H 109
P&H 110
A 144 (10:7)-FB
A 144 (10:8)-FB *ADD (Hedy is shown as Patsy's flower girl)
M/FAN 59/2

WOLFE, JOHN
P&H 95
PW 116
P&H 97
P&H 104
P&H 105

WOLFE, VIRGINIA
P&H 95
P&H 104
P&H 105
Out in the Land Down-Under, beneath a rocky outcrop, deep within the back paddock, dwells the Stray Lamb.
Clive_Reston
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 474
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: Patsy Walker 122-124

Post by Clive_Reston »

This may be opening a can of worms, but I'm increasingly convinced that Patsy Walker/Patsy and Hedy (and associated titles, including Miss America/Miss America Magazine) belong in the main-universe canon--they have cross-continuity with each other (and share character appearances with other series, including Millie the Model and Linda Carter, Student Nurse), they're published and owned by Marvel, they don't break other continuity (well, aside from when the Rawhide Kid shows up in Patsy and Hedy #81), their events are referred to in superhero comics... obviously there are Patsy Walker comics in the 616 (though, per Defenders v2 #9, one of them was called "Patsy's Pals," as opposed to our "Patsy and her Pals"), but hey, there are Fantastic Four comics in the 616 too. Both Patsy's comics and Patsy herself appear in Millie the Model #103.

(See also "Kathy," since Kathy Carter appears in Life with Millie #14, Millie the Model appears in Kathy #26, and Patsy Walker (as well as an issue of Patsy & Hedy) appears in Kathy #14... and then Liz's sketch from that issue appears in Patsy Walker #98.)

What's the argument against including them?
User avatar
Col_Fury
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 7754
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: on a Helicarrier, above Illinois
Contact:

Re: Patsy Walker 122-124

Post by Col_Fury »

The short version:
Defenders #89 is the argument against; it reveals that all of those romance comics are fictionalized accounts of Patsy's youth (of course, Avengers #144 (published four years before Defenders #89) references Patsy #123 among others) as written by her mother.

The longer, less condensed, more detailed version:
Basically, Patsy's actual introduction into the Marvel Universe proper is Amazing Adventures #13-15; Patsy & Buzz are already married there (which was a general hand-waving reference to the romance comics). Then, three years later in Avengers #139-144, flashbacks tie the romance comics and the Amazing Adventures stuff together (specifically referencing Patsy #123, for example; this is a real reference (editor's footnotes & everything!), not the hand-wavy stuff), and re-introduces Patsy as Hellcat. Then another four years later in Defenders #89, all the romance stuff is retconned out as fictionalized versions of Patsy's past. And over the following decades, this version has been used as the basis for various stories, including the late '90s Hellcat mini and the more recent Patsy Walker AKA Hellcat! ongoing.

Yes, Patsy appears on one page in FF Annual #3, but that's a cameo with no continuity references (but it is referenced in Avengers #144!).

SO, up to 1980 the romance stuff counted. Then Defenders #89 came along and CHANGED EVERYTHING.
-Daron Jensen
Clive_Reston
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 474
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: Patsy Walker 122-124

Post by Clive_Reston »

Right, I get that. But Defenders #89 only establishes that there were hundreds of "Patsy Walker" comics with fictionalized versions of her experiences--which can also be read as an explanation of why there would be Patsy Walker comics owned by Millie Collins (in Millie the Model #103) and Kathy Carter (in Kathy #14)!--but not that the "Patsy Walker" comics within the 616, created by her mom, that she feels distort her experiences (which are, indeed, a big plot point in latter-day Hellcat stories) are the same as the Patsy Walker comics by Stan Lee, Al Hartley, et al. in our world. *

Also, "Marvel Legacy: The 1960s Handbook," from 2006, has an entry for Patsy that suggests that the stories in our world's comics accurately reflect the experiences of 616 Patsy: "Fictionalized versions of Patsy's activities appeared in comic books, earning her an often critical fan club. Perhaps Patsy's most remarkable adventure was the release of a genie from a lamp, but the genie tired of her wishes and turned Patsy into a genie herself, trapping her in the lmap, before they called it even and parted ways."

* Now, why there would be a comic about Kathy that Hedy Wolfe could read is another story. Maybe she had a stage mom too.
User avatar
Col_Fury
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 7754
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: on a Helicarrier, above Illinois
Contact:

Re: Patsy Walker 122-124

Post by Col_Fury »

There's an in-universe argument to be made as well: the Dan Slott She-Hulk series established that comics in the Marvel Universe can be used as legal evidence. In theory, those Patsy comics could be accurate enough to count in that view...

Also, as you point out, there could be in-universe comics that are different than the ones published in the real world. And, as you said before, there's a fair bit of crossover between other books that we know are 616.

So yeah. The argument against is Defenders #89. The argument for is "Well, how strong is Defenders #89 as an argument?" basically.

I'm gonna dig out Defenders #89 and give it a re-read. And Avengers #144. AT THE SAME TIME! :twisted:

:thinking:
-Daron Jensen
User avatar
StrayLamb
Director
Director
Posts: 2283
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:42 am
Location: a sheep paddock, along the Great Eastern Highway

Re: Patsy Walker 122-124

Post by StrayLamb »

Ah ha! So am i (going to re-read those two issues).. i have to say, i'm with Clive on this one - i find the interaction between the characters in the various series, with ongoing melodrama, to be compelling, and as Clive pointed out, there are Fantastic Four comics in 616, as well as a real, functioning (disfunctioning) Fantastic Four. Johnny Storm is often seen reading the Fantastic Four comics in early FF issues. Although some of the comics, and probably most of the early issues, are fictionalzed accounts, it appears that many of the issues from the early '60's onwards could well be 616 canon..
Out in the Land Down-Under, beneath a rocky outcrop, deep within the back paddock, dwells the Stray Lamb.
User avatar
StrayLamb
Director
Director
Posts: 2283
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 5:42 am
Location: a sheep paddock, along the Great Eastern Highway

Re: Patsy Walker 122-124

Post by StrayLamb »

Here’s my take on those two issues..

At the very least, the Patsy Walker Baxter chronology requires the addition of DEF 89 (14:6)-FB, where she is depicted as a young girl prior to DEF 89 (15:1)-FB.

In DEF 89 (14:4), Patsy tells Kyle that the hundreds of issues of her magazine have all been reprinted a dozen times. This is certainly not the case with the real-world comics themselves. In DEF 89, the early Patsy Walker Magazines are referred to as just that, magazines, and appear to be drawn on page 14, panels 4-6, as magazine-sized issues, until such time as (in page 15, panel 1) she became a teenager, when Patsy’s mother hit on the idea of writing stories about her as a teenage romance idol, and overnight she was a comic book star.

Avengers 144 shows Patsy remembering "the days she spent surfing, studying, dancing, romancing, and battling continuously with her best friend, Hedy Wolfe, and how she knew from the start that Buzz Baxter was the boy for her," while also "dreaming about the world outside Centerville, New York, and the super-heroes." The backdrop to page 10, panel 4, shows editions of the Daily Bugle, with headlines about Daredevil (who appears to be in his original costume), Spider-Man, and the Fantastic Four saving the world from the threat of the Sub-Mariner. Patsy also reminisces about her crush on Reed Richards, a photo of whom she had in her bedroom, and "how happy he was the day Reed married Sue Storm, at which time she dragged Hedy to the Baxter Building, where they managed to worm their way to the front". Next comes the marriage to Buzz Baxter, also shown in the Defenders 89 flashback.

The Patsy Walker magazines and comics are not referenced in A 144, but that’s not proof that they didn’t exist. Patsy had divorced herself from that life, and probably had no desire to remember it at that time.

Likewise, just because DEF 89 does reference the fact that there were Patsy Walker magazines and comics, certainly doesn’t prevent at least the issues from the later 1960’s, which depict her “surfing, studying, dancing, romancing, and battling continuously with her best friend, Hedy Wolfe”, and her evolving relationship with Buzz Baxter, including his joining the army, and heading to Viet-Nam, all of which is later referenced in A 144, from being 616 canon.

This of course is just my opinion.
Out in the Land Down-Under, beneath a rocky outcrop, deep within the back paddock, dwells the Stray Lamb.
Clive_Reston
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 474
Joined: Thu Apr 30, 2015 11:42 pm

Re: Patsy Walker 122-124

Post by Clive_Reston »

Col_Fury wrote: Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:24 pm There's an in-universe argument to be made as well: the Dan Slott She-Hulk series established that comics in the Marvel Universe can be used as legal evidence. In theory, those Patsy comics could be accurate enough to count in that view...
To get even more hair-splitting: She-Hulk #2 (2004) indicates that comics can be used as legal evidence if they have a Comics Code seal on them, because the 616 Code is a Federal agency. The Patsy and Hedy comics we see in Kathy #14 only have an empty box where our world's versions have the Comics Code seal...

(An issue from that era that does have the Code seal on a comic book depicted in it: Love Romances #103, in which there's a character reading an issue of Love Romances... whose cover image doesn't resemble any of those printed in our world.) (No, I am not making any arguments about the canonicity of Love Romances, one way or the other.)
Post Reply