X-Men: First Class v2 #6-8/9 & 11

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

Moderators: Paul Bourcier, Kevin W., Col_Fury, Arthur, JephYork, Somebody

metaldragon
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:03 pm
Contact:

Re: X-Men: First Class v2 #6-8/9

Post by metaldragon » Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:02 am

Col_Fury wrote:
Somebody wrote:Preview for #9 is out.
Hrm. Black Widow working for SHIELD here isn't a problem, as long as she's recruited shortly after Hawkeye drops her off at the hospital in M/H&L '97, which would still be before the Scarlet Witch joins the Avengers. The problem is, Fury wasn't running SHIELD until after Avengers 16, according to A: EMH. I can think of a couple things that could make this work, but I'd like to read the entire issue first before nailing anything down.

Off the top of my head: The first page occurs after Strange Tales 135, and the Flashback occurs before Avengers 16, and by extension before Strange Tales 135. That would make the 'current' segment a scene where Fury's getting to know his agents and recent SHIELD going-ons. That could work, depending on how the rest of the issue unfolds.
Erm... How does Fury know Scarlet Witch's father is a "bad guy" or even who her father is?!? She didn't know Magneto was her bio father until WAY later. Wow, he's got agents in Wundagore or something?
"May the Light shine forever!"

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6320
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: X-Men: First Class v2 #6-8/9

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Feb 24, 2008 2:20 am

:)
metaldragon wrote:How does Fury know Scarlet Witch's father is a "bad guy" or even who her father is?!? She didn't know Magneto was her bio father until WAY later.
Fury knows everything about everything. I'll quote from the recent What If...? Spider-Man vs. Wolverine:
Nick Fury wrote:Buddy, I'm Nick Fury. I already know.
metaldragon wrote:Wow, he's got agents in Wundagore or something?
Nah. He just knows. :wink:

That, and it's just the recap page. But still, this is Fury we're talking about here. The guy who figured out a Norse God had a secret identity, the guy who figured out who Iron Man was, the guy who figured out who Spider-Man was, the guy who figured out the Skrulls were invading...
-Daron Jensen

Enda80
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 1152
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:02 pm

Re: X-Men: First Class v2 #6-8/9

Post by Enda80 » Sun Feb 24, 2008 11:59 am

http://darkmark6.tripod.com/man-thing_index.html
Savage Tales No. 1
Shortly after this story, Man-Thing and Ka-Zar battle AIM in ASTONISHING TALES #12, 13.
This story takes place sometime after May 1, 1971, as indicated in GIANT-SIZE MAN-THING #5.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/swabada.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Rory#_ref-0
There is one other clue that might impact as to whether Ted Sallis became the Man-Thing in the "1960's" or the "1970's" (I am aware of the sliding timescale).

Rory had several more adventures, most of which were resolved by Man-Thing, whom he had never feared, making an appearance. He also guided Daredevil to Ted Sallis's old shack, which was being used by Gladiator and Death-Stalker.[1]

In the issue, Daredevil #113, he noted it was the site of several recent deaths. A footnote says that this is a reference to Tales of the Zombie #6, but as the cabin in that story was only a day's walk from New Orleans, Louisiana, it is clearly a reference to a two-part text story in Monsters Unleashed #8-9. All stories in question are Gerber's, perhaps implying that the story was published in a different place than originally intended.

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix3/mastersonteddy.htm

Monsters Unleashed Magazine #8 Several Meaningless Deaths 1974/10
Text story by Gerber concerning a writer who, trying to escape the violence of the city, runs away to the very shack that Ted Sallis lived in. He finds an injured young girl on his doorstep who is being chased by her sadistic father. The emotional energy flying around attracks Man-Thing
http://www.lonely.geek.nz/mtwhatcomics.html

Anyway, this all seems to impact the chronology of Ka-Zar and the late lamented Mockingbird (Morse).

Incidentally, an interesting comparison to the Swamp Thing, whose timeline has also been tinkered with to retroactively set it earlier than the era of the comics he was first published in. The Swamp Thing's origin was less tied to pre-existing characters, so it was easier (Nathan Ellery and Arcane-who had nothing to do with the Swamp Thing's origin, Mr. Wes Craven- were created specifically for the Swampt thing series).

Enda80
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 1152
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:02 pm

Re: X-Men: First Class v2 #6-8/9

Post by Enda80 » Sun Feb 24, 2008 4:53 pm

In Astonishing Tales#12, Morse says Sallis disappeared a few weeks ago.

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6320
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: X-Men: First Class v2 #6-8/9

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Feb 27, 2008 9:02 pm

Col_Fury wrote:Off the top of my head: The first page occurs after Strange Tales 135, and the Flashback occurs before Avengers 16, and by extension before Strange Tales 135. That would make the 'current' segment a scene where Fury's getting to know his agents and recent SHIELD going-ons.
Scratch that.

All of X: FC2 9 has to occur after Strange Tales 135 thanks to Fury & Dum Dum.

X: FC2 9 has to occur before Avengers 16(well, most of it at least) thanks to the Scarlet Witch.

A: EMH has a line of dialogue from Captain America that says Nick Fury is still with the CIA. Originally, I had suggested moving ST 135 to after A 16 to accommodate the reference, even though the Index had placed ST 135 before A 16.(well, A 15 actually) Now we have an appearance that needs Nick Fury to be with SHIELD before A 16. As X: FC2 9 seems to agree with the Index, I’ll say we need to ignore my earlier suggestion to move ST 135 in Iron Man’s chronology. If we need to rationalize Captain America’s comment, we can assume that Fury stayed with the CIA either for a transitional phase while he was starting with SHIELD, or him being with the CIA was his public cover, as SHIELD was a secret organization in the early days.

Black Widow needs to appear here after her portion of Marvels Heroes & Legends ’97.

Dum Dum’s not a problem. He(and Gabe) appears in ST 137 already with SHIELD, we don’t see his(or Gabe’s) recruitment.

So, at least for the SHIELD folks, we’re looking at:

FURY, COL. NICHOLAS "NICK" JOSEPH

ST 135 (12:3 - 12:7)
*A: EMH 6-BTS
*X: FC2 9

ST 136
FF@ 3


DUGAN, TIMOTHY ALOYISIOUS CADWALLADER "DUM DUM"

FURY 1-FB-BTS
*X: FC2 9
FF@ 3


BLACK WIDOW II/NATASHA ROMANOVA

A 16-FB
M/H&L '97
*X: FC2 9
A 29


Great issue!
-Daron Jensen

User avatar
Somebody
Director
Director
Posts: 3035
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:48 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re:

Post by Somebody » Thu Feb 28, 2008 12:48 pm

metaldragon wrote:
Paul Bourcier wrote:Publication dates don't always indicate synchronicity in the MU. One likely gap between UX 18 and 19 for Pietro and Wanda is between A 20 and 21.
Understood, works for me.
Paul Bourcier wrote: The problem is these stories in X:FC2 read like they're supposed to chronicle Wanda's transformation from "bad" to "good" before A 16. So far, I don't think this intention has been overt, but I get the sinking feeling that it will become so.
Well, at least the back-up stories do. In this story, Wanda & Pietro just happen to be at their cabin. It noone talks about them being Avengers or not. Since it HAS to take place after UX 18 because of the Sentinels, the only way this story could be pre-Avengers for them is to contradict Marvels 2 and place the X-Men's appearance alongside them at the FF wedding after UX 18. Which would either bump Marvels 2 out of continuity or the X:FC series. If I remember correctly, I think that even before Marvels came out, the Index placed the wedding right before UX 14 anyway.
Well, I didn't see any references to #6-8 in #9. Looks like it should be fine (if perhaps slightly counter-intiuitive) to place #9 earlier.
metaldragon wrote:
Somebody wrote:Preview for #9 is out. No real clues that weren't already in the solicit that I can see: http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/ ... i?id=13083

And, looking back at page 1 of this thread, I'm still not sure why things can't be arranged such that X:FC 8, which follows an off-panel-but-plot-critical two-week break for everyone but Xavier - who leaves for Africa during it and isn't there when they get back - can't directly follow X:FC2 4, where we follow Beast & Iceman as everyone except Xavier goes on a two-week break, and we don't see anyone get back and hear only Angel.
You could place X:FC 8 after X:FC2 4 and include it as part of the vacation from X:FC 2-3 & X:FC2 4 but you still have the problem of a working Cerebro interface in Xavier's office that was destroyed in UX 18 and only finally replaced in UX 20. On second thought... I suppose one could argue that the room with the Cerebro laptop in X:FC 8 could have been the library/tv room from UX 20 instead of Xavier's office... That WOULD tidy up the vacation references... Hm...
Well, it's a standard PC. We'd already decided the central Kirbytech core must have been functional at this point - they're making do by hacking in a PC in lieu of the more complicated interfaces they normally use.

wolframbane
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 926
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:34 am

Re: X-Men: First Class v2 #6-8/9

Post by wolframbane » Thu Feb 28, 2008 1:32 pm

metaldragon wrote:Erm... How does Fury know Scarlet Witch's father is a "bad guy" or even who her father is?!? She didn't know Magneto was her bio father until WAY later. Wow, he's got agents in Wundagore or something?
Another possibility is that they werent even talking about Magneto. Wanda has has two other 'fathers' as well. Whizzer didn't have much of a criminal record, beyond vagrancy. But Django Maximoff did go off the deep end after the death of his wife. Nothing overly major, but he did supply the magic wood used by the Brothers Grimm for their voodoo dolls, and possibly other quesionable acts

dimadick
Big Bad
Big Bad
Posts: 202
Joined: Tue Feb 17, 2004 2:53 am

Re: X-Men: First Class v2 #6-8/9

Post by dimadick » Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:09 am

"But Django Maximoff did go off the deep end after the death of his wife. Nothing overly major, but he did supply the magic wood used by the Brothers Grimm for their voodoo dolls, and possibly other quesionable acts".

A this point in his history, Django was considered deceased by the twins. He had settled in Vladivostok and would only track his children again by news reports on the Avengers.

User avatar
Somebody
Director
Director
Posts: 3035
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:48 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: X-Men: First Class v2 #6-8/9

Post by Somebody » Fri Feb 29, 2008 7:42 am

dimadick wrote:"But Django Maximoff did go off the deep end after the death of his wife. Nothing overly major, but he did supply the magic wood used by the Brothers Grimm for their voodoo dolls, and possibly other quesionable acts".

A this point in his history, Django was considered deceased by the twins. He had settled in Vladivostok and would only track his children again by news reports on the Avengers.
Two points:

1) It's Nick Fury. He knows stuff ;)
2) More importantly, it's the recap page. Unless you want to suggest reasons why Gammaworld has an ad for people to come & visit (Warbound #3), I'd not bother trying to explain it.

metaldragon
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 669
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:03 pm
Contact:

Re: X-Men: First Class v2 #6-8/9

Post by metaldragon » Mon Mar 03, 2008 2:43 am

I guess X:FC2 9/2 takes place during ASM 86...? :wink:
"May the Light shine forever!"

Paul Bourcier
Director
Director
Posts: 5424
Joined: Fri Feb 13, 2004 6:51 am
Location: Florida

Re: X-Men: First Class v2 #6-8/9

Post by Paul Bourcier » Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:10 pm

Metaldragon wrote:
I guess X:FC2 9/2 takes place during ASM 86...?
Apparently so. Anyone care to elaborate on details of placement?
Paul B.

User avatar
Somebody
Director
Director
Posts: 3035
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:48 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: X-Men: First Class v2 #6-8/9

Post by Somebody » Tue Mar 04, 2008 11:10 am

Image

wolframbane
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 926
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:34 am

Re: X-Men: First Class v2 #6-8/9

Post by wolframbane » Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:38 pm

In ASM 86, Natasha is shown in her old costume, with red hair. In most of her pre-ASM 86 appearances, she is in her old costume and had black hair (the OHOTMU states she is naturally red and dyes her hair black). In XFC2 9/2, she is in her first costume and had black hair, then changed to her catsuit and red hair, inspired by Marvel Girl. I would suggest:

XFC2 9/2 (1:2-1:6). BW in old costume, black hair. Battles Hydra, tries on different costumes, inspired by image of Marvel Girl.
BTS. Apparently resumes natural red hair color.
ASM 86. BW in old costume, red hair. Decides on catsuit for her new image, battles Spider-Man.
XFC2 9/2 (1:7). BW in catsuit, red hair. Battles Hydra again.

I am not entirely sure how this would interconnect with her simultaneous appearance in M/FAN 10-FB. Perhaps:
*XFC2 9/2 (1:2-1:6)
M/FAN 10-FB
ASM 86
M/FAN 10-FB
ASM 86
*XFC2 9/2 (1:7)

Enda80
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 1152
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:02 pm

Re: X-Men: First Class v2 #6-8/9

Post by Enda80 » Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:45 pm

Thanks for posting the amusing bit from Mr. Parker. Actually, Emma Peel from the Avengers was largely the source for the revised look of the Black Widow (Beverly Switzler-also red-headed! also referenced Diana Rigg in an issue of Howard the Duck during Howard the Duck's presdential campaign). There is an in-joke about this in Avengers I#83 in which Roy Thomas' spouse appears in the story "Which one of you is Mrs. Peel?".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektra:_Assassin

If it does take place around ASM#86, well guess what, we can nail things down even further:

George Olshevksy's Avengers Index#3. In that issue, he discusses Avengers I#61, and notes that some freak weather conditions, such as the abnormally premature snowstorms seen in Elektra: Assassin, were caused by the battle between Ymir and Surtur in Avengers I#61, as well as by the events of Incredible Hulk I#109-110 (in which a large machine that affected the Earth's rotation existed in the Savage Land — this machine was the Planet-Destroyer, which was a weapon of the Sagittarians, used in the service of the Galaxy Master. It is seen in the profile for Umbu the Unliving). Thus, some of the events of Elektra: Assassin took place around the time of other stories with premature snowstorms, such as Amazing Spider-Man I#85, Incredible Hulk I#115, and Daredevil I#52-53. These premature snowstorms came ever now and then during a period of two or three months following the events of Avengers I#61. Further, Avengers I#61 took place towards the end of the third week of September of Peter Parker's sophomore year in college. So, we can nail things down ever further.

Retrieved from "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elektra:_Assassin"

Enda80
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 1152
Joined: Mon Feb 16, 2004 5:02 pm

Re: X-Men: First Class v2 #6-8/9

Post by Enda80 » Tue Mar 04, 2008 4:48 pm

wolframbane wrote:In ASM 86, Natasha is shown in her old costume, with red hair. In most of her pre-ASM 86 appearances, she is in her old costume and had black hair (the OHOTMU states she is naturally red and dyes her hair black). In XFC2 9/2, she is in her first costume and had black hair, then changed to her catsuit and red hair, inspired by Marvel Girl. I would suggest:

XFC2 9/2 (1:2-1:6). BW in old costume, black hair. Battles Hydra, tries on different costumes, inspired by image of Marvel Girl.
BTS. Apparently resumes natural red hair color.
ASM 86. BW in old costume, red hair. Decides on catsuit for her new image, battles Spider-Man.
XFC2 9/2 (1:7). BW in catsuit, red hair. Battles Hydra again.

I am not entirely sure how this would interconnect with her simultaneous appearance in M/FAN 10-FB. Perhaps:
*XFC2 9/2 (1:2-1:6)
M/FAN 10-FB
ASM 86
M/FAN 10-FB
ASM 86
*XFC2 9/2 (1:7)
Marvel Saga#13 also states she has naturally red hair.

Locked