New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by WayneLW » Mon Feb 04, 2008 11:14 am

I hesitate to jump into the middle of the chronologist Titans here, but here's something that I noticed – having just read both New Avengers Annual # 2 and New Avengers: Illuminati # 5, in the latter, when Strange arrives, Iron Man greets him by saying, "I didn't think YOU'D show up," with "you'd" in bold, implying that he wasn't expecting to see Strange. Now, of course, this probably refers to the fact that Strange is a member of the New Avengers and thus a fugitive from the Pro-Registration authorities

Later, however, during the battle, Strange says, "My powers aren't what they--" which seems to be a reference to his powers being unstable due to his use of black Magic during WWH, which NA:I comes after, referring to it within the issue itself. All of these things taken together, it seems possible to me that the reason that both Iron Man and Strange say the things that they do is that NA:I comes after the New Avengers Annual # 2, and that Iron Man is surprised to see Strange because Iron Man expects Strange to be in self-imposed isolation, not merely avoiding the authorities because Strange is a fugitive, and Strange's is commenting on his powers being unable as a result of WWH is an ongoing condition from both WWH and NA Annual # 2. (This is the first time I've done this; I hope that I'm being clear.)

Is this possible, and would it make chronologies easier?

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Jason Doty » Mon Feb 04, 2008 5:51 pm

I'm of the opinion that One More Day and the Wolverine dies arc come after the current arc in New Avengers and World War Hulk comes between pages 4 and 5 of New Avengers Annual 2.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Paul Bourcier » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:37 pm

WayneLW wrote:
(This is the first time I've done this; I hope that I'm being clear.)
Welcome to the forum, WayneLW. Yup, you're clear. You're saying that it's possible for Strange to appear in NA:I2 5 after NA@ 2 and dialogue in NA:I2 5 can be used to support this theory.

WayneLW wrote:
Is this possible, and would it make chronologies easier?
I can't think of anything that makes this impossible, at least not yet. But it would mean that both NA@2 and NA:I2 5 would need to occur in a gap we'd need to open between Strange's and Spidey's appearance in NX 41 and Xavier's fate in Messiah Complex. It doesn't necessarily make the chronologies easier.
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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Somebody » Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:10 am

I've now read NA@ 2, and something leapt out at me - Strange's condition isn't a legacy of Zom, it's a legacy of the many things he's been doing on an ongoing basis since WWH to cover up the aftereffects of Hulk breaking his hands. i.e., it supports that it's been a probably-extended period since WWH.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Paul Bourcier » Tue Feb 05, 2008 7:02 am

Somebody wrote:
I've now read NA@ 2, and something leapt out at me - Strange's condition isn't a legacy of Zom, it's a legacy of the many things he's been doing on an ongoing basis since WWH to cover up the aftereffects of Hulk breaking his hands. i.e., it supports that it's been a probably-extended period since WWH.
Yes, that's correct.
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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:15 pm

I’ve read the issue, and here’s what I’m thinking.

Pg5-onwards establishes that time has passed from the perspective of the New Avengers. They’re returning from an unseen battle, and Strange mentions the events of WWH as happening in the past. Right there places WWH between A4 37 & the Annual.

However, the Annual picks up directly from the end of A4 37, from the perspective of the villains. But hey, so what?

Here’s my suggestion:

Splice as much time as we need between A4 37 (1-18) & A4 37 (19-22) to get us relatively close to WWH. Annual 2 (1-2) occurs ‘fifteen minutes’ after A4 37 (19-22). Splice some more time, but not too much, between Annual 2 (1-2) & Annual 2 (3-4), and then BANG! The Hulk attacks. Everyone is sidetracked, WWH happens, and then any other post-WWH New Avengers guest appearances can occur,(W3 58, NX 41, etc) including the unseen fight referenced on pg5-onward in Annual 2.(I’m sure this will require us to ignore some temporal references in W3 56 & W3 58)

But, what are the villains doing in the meantime? Well, the Hood’s been preaching about getting smart about crime, so I figure they’re doing some jobs and getting the word out until he felt it was the right time to get revenge. It’s just unlucky on his part that he decided the right time was when the Hulk was in orbit…

After WWH for the villains, they’re getting their act back together, because they have to wait until everyone comes back to the city to do anything anyway. There’s no one to steal from in an evacuated city, right? After everything’s back under ‘control,’ they pick the plan back up and attack where they know the New Avengers are hiding out.

That gets us to the end of the Annual, where Dr. Strange kicks the New Avengers out of his house. Now see, I was confused a bit in OMD when Spider-Man came to Dr. Strange in the way he did. If he had an open invitation to the Sanctum, why did he have to enter the way he did? Well, now we know. He was kicked out. :) What I’m saying is: Annual 2 is pre-OMD. This also necessitates W3 57-61 to be pre-Annual 2)

Also, I agree with WayneLW that Annual 2 is pre-NA: I2 5. And of course, NA: I2 5 has to be pre-Messiah CompleX.

So I’m thinking of something like this:

A4 37 (1-18)

Silent War begins

A4 37 (19-22)
A@2 2 (1-2)

A@2 2 (3-4)
WWH
Silent War ends

W3 57-61
NX 41
A@2 2 (5-36)

NA: I2 5
Messiah CompleX
OMD
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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Somebody » Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:24 pm

Col_Fury wrote:That gets us to the end of the Annual, where Dr. Strange kicks the New Avengers out of his house. Now see, I was confused a bit in OMD when Spider-Man came to Dr. Strange in the way he did. If he had an open invitation to the Sanctum, why did he have to enter the way he did? Well, now we know. He was kicked out. :) What I’m saying is: Annual 2 is pre-OMD. This also necessitates W3 57-61 to be pre-Annual 2)

Also, I agree with WayneLW that Annual 2 is pre-NA: I2 5. And of course, NA: I2 5 has to be pre-Messiah CompleX.
From Whacker here: "Beyond that, there’s plenty of Spidey in the Avengers (who also appear in Amazing during month four)" - and here's a preview page from BND M4: http://www.newsarama.com/marvelnew/Spid ... 07_col.jpg

And Strange DOESN'T chuck the NAvs out. HE teleports AWAY, leaving Danvers to find them (including Wong & Night Nurse) in the ruins of "the Strange house".

And in NA:I2 #5, Iron Man asks Strange "How are they? Your Avengers?" And Strange replies "As well as to be expected." And a few pages later "No-one in my group trusts you [IM]." All present-tense. The references Wayne picked up on may well be in reference to Strange's problems which climax in NA@ #2, but from my reading of the issue they have to be before he loses it in the Annual and is forced to go into isolation.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by cweed4 » Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:41 pm

Paul Bourcier wrote:That...doesn't work. Spidey is shown without his mask on in NA@ 2, so it must be before One More Day, or at least before the conclusion of One More Day. Maybe we need to insert a gap between the time Spidey leaves the Sanctum in FNSM 24 and his encounter with the Mephisto-sent daughter-that-could've-been in that same issue. In that gap, we'd have to wedge NA@ 2, with Spidey returning to his black costume and interrupting his desperate quest for a cure for May. Not a great solution by any means, but probably better than restoring the Sanctum and returning Strange to it after NA@ 2. I have a feeling Strange's self-imposed exile will factor into Secret Invasion.
Keep in mind that there is a months long gap between OMD and BND for Spidey. Mephisto breaks up Pete&MJ and restores his secret ID during that time period. When, and if, Marvel ever decides to reveal the events that show how Mephisto accomplished those 2 things will help clarify some of these chronologies. Given that Pete and MJ appear to have just broken up in the ASM 545 epilogue there is no reason to assume the other big retcon (restoring his secret ID) happened right away after the Mephisto deal.

Here is a possible chronology for Spidey:
-Civil War ends
-May gets shot
-Back in Black
-OMD *brickwall*
-magic reset: marriage is forgotten, May recovers, Spidey reverts to black costume
-NA 27 through 36
-WWH
-NA@ 2
-Mephisting: secret ID restored, Pete&MJ break up, Spidey back to classic costume
-BND


*edited to place WWH
Last edited by cweed4 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Somebody » Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:50 pm

[NB: I edited my post above to include my reading of NA:I2 5 while cweed was posting]
cweed4 wrote:Keep in mind that there is a months long gap between OMD and BND for Spidey. Mephisto breaks up Pete&MJ and restores his secret ID during that time period. When, and if, Marvel ever decides to reveal the events that show how Mephisto accomplished those 2 things will help clarify some of these chronologies. Given that Pete and MJ appear to have just broken up in the ASM 545 epilogue there is no reason to assume the other big retcon (restoring his secret ID) happened right away after the Mephisto deal.

Here is a possible chronology for Spidey:
-Civil War ends
-May gets shot
-Back in Black
-OMD *brickwall*
-magic reset: marriage is forgotten, May recovers, Spidey reverts to black costume
-NA 27 through NA@ 2
-Mephisting: secret ID restored, Pete&MJ break up, Spidey back to classic costume
-BND
Here's the thing - BND-Spider-Man is meant to be wearing his costume in BND for the first time since CW, ja? i.e., be it a reality shift or a mere mindwipe with changes to records, etc to maintain the consistancy, it took no time after OMD for the changes to happen, whatever the characters remember - there's not a gap in the last OMD issue for the stuff you mention to happen any more than there was months between HoM 7 & 8 for the Scarlet Witch to go and wipe all the mutants' powers one at a time.

On an absolute chronology, assuming mindwipe rather than reality shift, Mephisto just teleported Peter to wake up in Aunt May's restored house one minute later. If "events" happened to restore his secret ID in his memory, they're just as false as his memories of raising a kid for five years in HoM were.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by cweed4 » Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:55 pm

Somebody wrote:Here's the thing - BND-Spider-Man is meant to be wearing his costume in BND for the first time since CW, ja? i.e., be it a reality shift or a mere mindwipe with changes to records, etc to maintain the consistancy, it took no time after OMD for the changes to happen, whatever the characters remember - there's not a gap in the last OMD issue for the stuff you mention to happen any more than there was months between HoM 7 & 8 for the Scarlet Witch to go and wipe all the mutants' powers one at a time.

On an absolute chronology, assuming mindwipe rather than reality shift, Mephisto just teleported Peter to wake up in Aunt May's restored house one minute later. If "events" happened to restore his secret ID in his memory, they're just as false as his memories of raising a kid for five years in HoM were.
I disagree. According to the ASM 546 preview Spidey hasn't been spotted in 100 days. So, there is definitely an extended time gap between OMD and the start of BND in the epilogue of ASM 545. This was acknowledged by Quesada in a CBR interview for fan questions-
"After reading the 'One More Day' interviews, this was my understanding of events: all those stories from the past twenty years still happened, except Peter and MJ were only a couple, and not married; and 'Brand New Day' begins, Marvel-time, some time after the events of 'One More Day,' which would explain why Pete and MJ are broken up, Harry's back, Aunt May's house is rebuilt, and now Pete knows all these new people, because theoretically all those events take place in the time between 'One More Day' and 'Brand New Day.' Makes sense...'"
JoeQ: Sergio, you’re correct, there is some missing time, it’s obvious some time has gone by as you keenly noticed, MJ and Peter have broken up. When did it happen, how long have they been broken up, these are stories yet to be told.
Here is the full Q&A- http://www.comicbookresources.com/news/ ... i?id=12835

Regarding the classic costume in BND, since I haven't read it, is it the first time Peter thinks he has been in that outfit since CW or the first time he's been seen in the costume since CW? Either way, very few people saw him back in the classic costume during OMD and the Mephisto magic could easily explain away nobody knowing about its brief return.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Somebody » Tue Feb 05, 2008 3:22 pm

Yes, but I'm saying that the "missing time"/"100 days" cover Back in Black & OMD. [Read only the answers - and note how JQ said in pt 2:
Joephisto wrote:Peter toasts, but he's the only one with an empty glass, which to me is as it should be. He's lost a lot, while he doesn't know it and remembers nothing, his world right at this point is certainly a lot emptier.
People don't remember seeing Spidey for that long because him being on the run, beating up the Kingpin, going after Mr Hyde, feeding Ms Arrow to a bunch of birds, etc "unhappened" - either literally or because their effects were undone & memories/records deleted.

The time jump is purely illusionary, and any Spider-Man flashbacks to before the end of ASM545 reflecting what people think happened in their post-OMD memories are false.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Mikhail » Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:36 pm

The Hood has also been appeared in Daredevil, presumably pre-NA Annual #2. Have there been any references to WWH or other current events in DD? I don't recall any, but I thought I'd throw that into the chronology for analysis.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Paul Bourcier » Tue Feb 05, 2008 9:52 pm

Col_Fury wrote:
But, what are the villains doing in the meantime? Well, the Hood’s been preaching about getting smart about crime, so I figure they’re doing some jobs and getting the word out until he felt it was the right time to get revenge.
I can't see a big gap happening between the Hood forcing Tigra to reveal the New Avengers' whereabouts and the Hood's attack on said whereabouts. Why would Tigra take so long to act? How would she happen to time a visit to the Sanctum long after her betrayal right at the point Hood finally decided to attack? To me, this all makes sense only if Hood acted quickly on his intel and Tigra immediately went to warn her friends.


Somebody wrote:
And in NA:I2 #5, Iron Man asks Strange "How are they? Your Avengers?" And Strange replies "As well as to be expected." And a few pages later "No-one in my group trusts you [IM]." All present-tense. The references Wayne picked up on may well be in reference to Strange's problems which climax in NA@ #2, but from my reading of the issue they have to be before he loses it in the Annual and is forced to go into isolation.
Good point. Given this, I think it makes sense for NA:I2 5 to occur before NA@ 2. Given what we know so far, Strange's last chronological appearance would have to be NA@ 2. If we insert gaps properly, this doesn't appear to be a problem except for FNSM 24 (One More Day).

Citing a creator interview concerning the gap of time after May is saved, cweed4 asserts that FNSM 24, too, occurs prior to NA@ 2 with the following chronological sequence of events making this possible:

All of One More Day except the epilog in ASM 545;
Mephisto saves May and the marriage is forgotten;
Spidey resumes wearing the black costume;
[*see below];
Spidey has an unpublished adventure with his fellow Avengers in which Echo injures her arm;
He appears sans mask in NA@ 2 (which is say continues directly from pages 19-22 of A4 37), in which the Sanctum is destroyed and Strange goes away;
Mephisto performs part two of his deal (perhaps the whispered M.J. addendum), erasing everyone's memory of Spidey's ID;
Peter Parker breaks up with MJ and resumes a normal life -- no Spidey activity for three months;
MJ becomes Jackpot (another part of her Mephisto deal??) and becomes an Initiative star;
Spidey finally makes a brief appearance in classic costume in Swing Shift, in which Jackpot appears;
The epilog of ASM 545 occurs;
Brand New Day occurs

Our "sneak peak" into the future beyond this shows a classic-garbed Spidey and Logan with Strange in a boarded-up Sanctum. So...Strange returns, the Sanctum gets restored (and is left alone by Stark's folks), the Starbucks spell is redone, and Strange calls his teammates back?? How...anti-climactic for NA@ 2. Or, is this "sneak peak" of a scene in a future issue of ASM actually a flashback set prior to NA@ 2?


*So my question here is, if we split Mephisto's mumbo jumbo into two phases -- May saved/marriage forgotten and secret ID restored -- do we open the door for Spidey to make many other appearances in black costume during the gap -- NA 27-37, WWH, NX 41, etc.? One benefit this has is to compress the amount of time May is gravely ill in the hospital by pushing OMD to a point much earlier on the calendar.

Just thinking out loud here. I haven't gone back to check on other repercussions of such a suggestion.
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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Jason Doty » Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:43 pm

Paul B. wrote
I can't see a big gap happening between the Hood forcing Tigra to reveal the New Avengers' whereabouts and the Hood's attack on said whereabouts. Why would Tigra take so long to act? How would she happen to time a visit to the Sanctum long after her betrayal right at the point Hood finally decided to attack? To me, this all makes sense only if Hood acted quickly on his intel and Tigra immediately went to warn her friends.


Why not put a gap between pages 4 and 5 on NA@2, Tigra gave the bad guys the location. She could have been easily stalking the place untill they made there move, wanting revenge for the treatment she has been enduring and the Initiative side not being able or unwilling to help. Hence her now switching sides.

In that gap putting

Illuminati no.5
World War Hulk

Is it possible to keep "all" of Spider-Man's Back In Black appearances before One More Day, beter yet even before Aunt May gets shot?

I know they never leave much room in the Spider-Man titles, but is there a gap between him returning to the Black costume and Aunt May getting shot to fit all of his , Initiative, New Avengers World and War Hulk black costume appearances.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by cweed4 » Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:28 pm

Somebody wrote:Yes, but I'm saying that the "missing time"/"100 days" cover Back in Black & OMD. [Read only the answers - and note how JQ said in pt 2:
Joephisto wrote:Peter toasts, but he's the only one with an empty glass, which to me is as it should be. He's lost a lot, while he doesn't know it and remembers nothing, his world right at this point is certainly a lot emptier.
People don't remember seeing Spidey for that long because him being on the run, beating up the Kingpin, going after Mr Hyde, feeding Ms Arrow to a bunch of birds, etc "unhappened" - either literally or because their effects were undone & memories/records deleted.

The time jump is purely illusionary, and any Spider-Man flashbacks to before the end of ASM545 reflecting what people think happened in their post-OMD memories are false.
Sorry, but I think this is all completely wrong. The ONLY thing that has "unhappened" because of OMD is the wedding in ASM@ 21. That's it! Peter still unmasked in CW but everyone (and all records of it) have been erased. JoeQ has clearly stated in numerous interviews that Spidey's history remains intact and that everything (or almost everything :roll: ) still happened exactly the same way. The above quote pertains to the marriage.

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