New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Apr 06, 2008 12:25 am

The reviewer, Neil McClean, points out that the story references recent New Avengers issues,(the Hood arc) which it does. Those issues can't have both happened and not happened.
cweed4 wrote:I'm pretty sure Spidey's appearance in Swing Shift is the first time he is seen in his classic costume since CW. Between BiB, NA, WWH, etc... there is NO WAY it is his first public appearance since CW.
Exactly.
cweed4 wrote:And, to repeat my previous argument, everyone remembers everything EXCEPT Spidey's identity.
Right. The events after Civil War and before One More Day still happened, the only difference is that no one remembers who Spider-Man is under the mask. He still unmasked, everyone knew at the time, but no one remembers now. Aside from the marriage, everything happened the way it happened, and at the time everyone knew Spider-Man was Peter Parker. After One More Day, no one remembers that Spider-Man is Peter Parker.
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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Kevin W. » Sun Apr 06, 2008 2:48 pm

Col_Fury wrote:ASM 555 is out, and in the letters page they come out and say it's a mistake caused by scheduling. They even put out a call for explanations to be rewarded with a No-Prize!
I'm hoping they'll post the winner, (along with his explanation) in the letter's page here in the next few weeks. My concern is: if Marvel adopts the winner's explanation as the official "canon" answer, if that answer makes no sense to us chronologists, then do we have to swallow what Marvel says as the gospel truth?!?
Col_Fury wrote:He still unmasked, everyone knew at the time, but no one remembers now.
As it stands, the way the stories are reading, it's more like he never unmasked, instead of everyone forgetting.

I, for one, would like to see just one reference to the unmasking by the new creative teams on ASM. I'd settle for a passerby on the street saying, "Anyone else remember Spider-Man unmasking? Does anyone else think it's wierd that we can't remember what he looked like under his mask?!?"
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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Col_Fury » Sun Apr 06, 2008 5:23 pm

Kevin W. wrote:
Col_Fury wrote:ASM 555 is out, and in the letters page they come out and say it's a mistake caused by scheduling. They even put out a call for explanations to be rewarded with a No-Prize!
I'm hoping they'll post the winner, (along with his explanation)
or hers! :wink:
Kevin W. wrote:in the letter's page here in the next few weeks. My concern is: if Marvel adopts the winner's explanation as the official "canon" answer, if that answer makes no sense to us chronologists, then do we have to swallow what Marvel says as the gospel truth?!?
If whatever answer they come up with actively contradicts the published stories then I'm sure we would ignore it, just like we have in the past with the Indexes.
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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by morwen » Mon Apr 07, 2008 7:25 am

Col_Fury wrote:The reviewer, Neil McClean, points out that the story references recent New Avengers issues,(the Hood arc) which it does. Those issues can't have both happened and not happened.
cweed4 wrote:I'm pretty sure Spidey's appearance in Swing Shift is the first time he is seen in his classic costume since CW. Between BiB, NA, WWH, etc... there is NO WAY it is his first public appearance since CW.
Exactly.
cweed4 wrote:And, to repeat my previous argument, everyone remembers everything EXCEPT Spidey's identity.
Right. The events after Civil War and before One More Day still happened, the only difference is that no one remembers who Spider-Man is under the mask. He still unmasked, everyone knew at the time, but no one remembers now. Aside from the marriage, everything happened the way it happened, and at the time everyone knew Spider-Man was Peter Parker. After One More Day, no one remembers that Spider-Man is Peter Parker.
Does *he* remember he unmasked?

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by cweed4 » Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:17 am

morwen wrote:Does *he* remember he unmasked?
That's a question I've been wondering about since ASM 546. Quite frankly, I don't think Marvel can answer it.

-If yes, then Peter would not know why others don't know his secret identity.
-If no, then Peter would be confused by any reference to the unmasking.

Either way, it would create a rather important question that Peter should want to figure out.
Spoiler:
Such a problem would (probably) only be resolved by adding to the existing retcon. So, I don't see it happening. *doh*

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Paul Bourcier » Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:14 am

Another clue that supports the theory that Dr. Strange returns to from his self-imposed exile sometime after NA@ 2 -- last week's FF 556. It that comic, Spidey appears in his classic costume and Dr. Strange appears as well, lending his magical powers in the fight against the CAP robot. This story could occur during the "100 days" before ASM 546 that Spidey is not seen publicly (except for Swing Shift) as the battle in FF 556 takes place in the remote Arctic. That placement is supported by the presence of Ms. Marvel with the Mighty Avengers in FF 556, which should occur before the current Skrully arc in MSM, which ties directly into ASM 546 by virtue of the reference to Jonah's heart attack. (T'Challa and Storm participate in the battle in FF 556 too, perhaps before Messiah Complex and the contemporaneous current BP arc.)

Pure conjecture -- the New (Secret) Avengers discover that Strange is back during the FF 556 battle and they set up shop again in the Sanctum sometime after that and before Spidey and Logan are seen there in ASM 555. Of course, as Secret Invasion proceeds, we'll see why all this can't work. :?
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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Somebody » Wed Apr 16, 2008 5:09 pm

Isn't FF completely post-Secret Invasion? Certainly, the continued use of the Pacheco costumes in SI & tie-ins strongly suggests a clean slate that Millar/Hitch pick up with afterwards, and you're putting the cart before the horse in placing Millar/Hitch F4 now.

Anything else, barring explicit evidence during SI that it must take place prior, seems to go against a pretty clear editorial statement. It wouldn't have taken anything to have the Hitch costumes in SI & SI:F4.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Paul Bourcier » Thu Apr 17, 2008 7:11 am

Another "wait and see" I suppose. It's hard to see anything happening after SI, given how long the whole event will take place and not knowing what big shakeups will result from it. The FF title won't tie in to SI, as far as I know. Do we know the new FF costumes are here to stay?
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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Somebody » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:28 am

Paul Bourcier wrote:The FF title won't tie in to SI, as far as I know.
No, ASM & F4, since they were being worked on so far in advance (reputedly, Millar & Hitch were starting on their current issues at the same time McDuffie & Pelletier were starting on their, prior, run - one reason why I take the choice of F4 costumes for SI as a major clue, since Hitch certainly did his first issue while Yu was still on New Avengers) that they're not tying in. Instead, there'll be SI:F4 (three issues, Roberto Aguirre-Sacasa & Barry Kitson, with Alan Davis covers, following the Thing, Torch & kids after they were sucked into the N-Zone in SI1) & SI:SM (no details announced AFAIK) minis.
Paul Bourcier wrote:Do we know the new FF costumes are here to stay?
For at least the whole of Millar & Hitch's run. Since that's 16 issues, and probably at least a year and a half,...

After that, it depends entirely on who follows them I suppose.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Paul Bourcier » Fri Apr 18, 2008 7:18 am

Then we're left with several alternatives:
1) FF 556 occurs before SI, and the FF's costumes in SI are erroneous (hey, that's been known to happen)
2) FF 556 occurs before SI, and the FF switched costumes temporarily (seems to me that in recent years the FF have been taking cues from the Wasp)
3) FF 556 occurs after SI, meaning that the New Avengers, the Mighty Avengers, T'Challa, Ororo, etc. all appear there after SI concludes (the continuity ramifications of which are hard to foresee at this point)

My original point, though, was that FF 556 supports the return of Dr. Strange after his exile. If FF 556 is pre-SI, then Doc could appear in FF 556 before ASM 555; if FF 556 is post-SI, then he'd have to appear in FF 556 after ASM 555 because of ASM's tie-in to MSM and MSM's tie-in to SI. Interesting that Logan and Spidey are in the Sanctum in ASM 555, but SI 1 shows the New Avengers in their apartment. As we say..."wait and see..."
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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Somebody » Thu May 15, 2008 5:11 pm

Okay, Dr Strange sighting in Last Defenders #3. Key points:

1) He's back in Greenwich Village "temporarily" because of a stampede of Nightmare's giant horses, which he seems to see as a dare aimed at him. He's not living there, and he says he shouldn't be there at all.
2) He's in absolutely no shape for a fight - he can basically fly and nothing else, his hands are still a mess and he claims his "mystical energies are at an all-time low" (given all the crap in the Dr Strange: Sorcerer Supreme series, this can't be literally true - but it's the lowest he's been his standard costume, which he usually strips off or changes past a certain point), and needs to be saved by Daimon Hellstrom.
3) He seems to have been monitoring events in the outside world to some extent, since he's heard of the Defenders team from #1 (but not that they've broken up already). However, he's VERY clear that he's going to be leading a "decidedly solitary existence" from now on.

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by JephYork » Fri May 16, 2008 11:19 am

How does his Sanctum look? Trashed? Regular/rebuilt? Boarded up/Starbucks? Not shown?

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Somebody » Fri May 16, 2008 11:27 am

Not shown. The scene takes place in a park with a prominent marble arch in the background (presumably meant to evoke a real-life location, but I've never been to NY).

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by JephYork » Fri May 16, 2008 6:28 pm

Probably Washington Square Park.

I think the New Warriors defeated the Badoon there too (Initiative #10) ... popular place!

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Re: New Avengers Annual #2 -- what the #$%^&!?

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat May 17, 2008 9:38 am

Tentatively still okay. I have LDEF 3 occurring before ASM 555-FB, in which Strange is back in the Sanctum with Logan; of course, both of them are red-circle guys. I suppose Strange's appearance in Alaska with other heroes in FF 556 would have to go after LDEF 3, too. So perhaps the decidedly solitary existence Strange anticipates is limited, or we're talking red circles...
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