Time of Tales of Asgard, Raven Banner, etc.

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Re: Time of Tales of Asgard, Raven Banner, etc.

Post by Somebody » Thu Jul 31, 2008 7:34 pm

DonCampbell wrote:Also, I think it would really be a good idea to take a close look at what "Tiwaz" actually told Thor in THOR #355. Quoting from page 15, Tiwaz says, "Oh, I know you have heard different versions of Odin's beginnings. Did not a great eyeball with a grudge once tell you that your father was the fusion of four earlier gods? And did not Odin himself tell you of his younger days with his two brothers? In truth, were I told conflicting stories by my father and a floating eyeball, I know which I should believe." And that's ALL he says. While it seems to me that "Tiwaz" was strongly implying that the Eye of Odin was lying, it falls short of being an absolute declaration. And let's not forget that "Tiwaz" himself was lying to Thor the whole time they were together since he was, in actuality, Thor's own great-grandfather, BURI. So I would take anything that "Tiwaz" said with a grain of salt.
Thing is though - by the Eye's account there WAS NO Buri to father Bor, nor Bor to father Odin. Buri/Tiwaz's very existence goes against the Eye's story.
DonCampbell wrote:Now, I'm not trying to say that EVERYthing the Eye told Thor was the absolute truth/canon and anyone who disagrees is a damned heretic. However, I'm also not willing to completely dismiss the Eye's account simply because Walt Simonson wrote a story in which ONE character IMPLIED that the Eye was lying about Odin's origin. And I'm also not willing to blindly accept everything in any of the retcons that subsequent writers have seen fit to force upon us (anymore than some posters on this board are willing to accept the events depicted in SPIDER-WOMAN: ORIGIN as the new "canon" about Jessica Drew's origin).
Thing is though, SW:O is in the MCP. With a crowbar at points, yes, but in the MCP.

And if it comes down to throwing one already-unreliable flashback out, or throwing a whole series (Thor: Son of Asgard) out wholesale... I'll go with the series. Especially since there was more against SW:O than against T:SOA.
DonCampbell wrote:I think it is a DRASTIC overstatement to claim that most of what the Eye of Odin told Thor is "absolute bunk." Personally, I rather liked the Eye's account of how the previous Asgard ended and how the current Asgard was born. Also, as far as I know, no alternate explanation for how the Ragnarok cycle works has yet been put forward so we might as well accept the Eye's story (albeit with a notation that it MIGHT not be accurate).
Fair enough. I think the weight of evidence against it has reached critical mass by this point, however. To wit (and I'm pulling this example out of thin air - any resemblance to any actual story past, present or future is purely coincidental) if one issue features Character X spinning a tale of how he was born as an only child into an poor family, how he was shot at by the Punisher who was looking for a mob boss, and how that led him to invent a suit of armour and declare revenge against the Punisher... only for it to be later revealed that he was never an only child, and that he stole the armour... I would dump the rest of the FB on the basis that it's been shown to be unreliable regardless of whether other FBs have superceded those bits.

Hell, the way the Loeb/Sale "colour" series have been treated mirrors that - the framing sequences are in the MCP, but the FBs (even the bits that don't contradict other material) aren't.

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Re: Time of Tales of Asgard, Raven Banner, etc.

Post by ChastMastr » Thu Jul 31, 2008 9:35 pm

Somebody wrote:LOL :) If you went back 1200 years, you'd find the Kirby Cycle Asgardians, yes.

The basic problem comes from Marvel's "all creation myths are valid" thing (along with the Big Bang theory), restated on the Norse side as recently as T3 8, where Odin ["our" Odin, that is] created humanity and ticked his dad off royally in the process.
Yeah, I was kind of wondering how that fit with... well, everything.

I think Marvel's fit-everything-together approach -- such as, for instance, the implied "Eternals living on Olympus inspired the legends of the Greek and perhaps other gods, while Deviants were the inspiration behind trolls, demons, ogres, etc." notion having to be set in the same universe as real Greek gods, trolls, ogres, demons, etc. -- leads to all kinds of awkwardness. (And now we can throw in Nightcrawler's father being a member of some kind of mutant subspecies who seem implied to be the inspiration behind demons, and another subspecies the inspiration behind angels -- in a world with real demons and angels already too -- gah! I liked it better when he just coincidentally resembled a classic "demon" image.)

Be that as it may, of course, we are still stuck with Eternals AND Greek gods and so on, but while possibly awkward, that's still a far cry from Odin canonically creating humanity. Especially in a universe where quite a few ordinary mortal folks can say, "Okay, we're resolving this once and for all, let's go get Doctor Doom's time machine and look," not to mention all the cosmic ancient folks who've been around since before the dawn of man, etc. And of course if Odin somehow THINKS he created humanity but didn't, then, er, that's kind of creepy, a delusional god wandering around...

(Of course, there could be some sort of thing in which on a mystical level, Odin and other creator gods can mythically describe themselves as the creators of things, on some sort of Platonic arch-reality of non-physical archetypes which are then unfolded into the physical world and when they enter Time and Space, these creations (including humanity) come into being via the Big Bang, evolution, the Celestials showing up and genetically tinkering and so forth, but that's not so far as I know what's being said. Neil Gaiman or Alan Moore could do the whole thing justice if Marvel took that route, probably Morrison too...)

Hmmm, with all the different Ragnaroks -- and (possibly) extra Midgards, then -- does that mean that each parallel Earth with a Thor in it would also have a whole bunch of extra Asgards and Ragnaroks (and therefore even more Midgards, yikes)? :shock: :shock: :shock:

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Re: Time of Tales of Asgard, Raven Banner, etc.

Post by DonCampbell » Fri Aug 01, 2008 12:38 am

Somebody wrote:
DonCampbell wrote:And let's not forget that "Tiwaz" himself was lying to Thor the whole time they were together since he was, in actuality, Thor's own great-grandfather, BURI. So I would take anything that "Tiwaz" said with a grain of salt.
Thing is though - by the Eye's account there WAS NO Buri to father Bor, nor Bor to father Odin. Buri/Tiwaz's very existence goes against the Eye's story.
It's funny you should mention that. When I first read THOR #349 & 355, it seemed that I would have to decide between the two origins of Odin (i.e. that one origin was "true" and that the other one was thus "false"). However, I later realized that that wasn't the case. The concept that there had been (at least) two different incarnations of Asgard meant that MAYBE the different origins were NOT contradictory because they were actually connected to different Asgards. With that in mind, I had no trouble jumping to the conclusion that maybe Buri/Tiwaz was from the earlier/first Asgard in which he did father Bor who then fathered Odin, Vili and Ve. Of course, that would mean that Buri must have somehow survived the Ragnarok that destroyed Old Asgard but that didn't seem like much of a problem, and it was a small price to pay for preserving the two different origin stories.
Somebody wrote:And if it comes down to throwing one already-unreliable flashback out, or throwing a whole series (Thor: Son of Asgard) out wholesale... I'll go with the series. Especially since there was more against SW:O than against T:SOA.
Okay, here we have a difference of opinion because there are some cases where I would absolutely be willing to throw out a whole series. Of course, that would not be my first choice. At best, I think that contradicting elements should be "explained away" in such a way that as little damage as possible is done to the competing stories. If this proved to be impossible, then I would be in favour of throwing one of the combatants out of "mainstream" continuity by declaring it to be (essentially) a What If? story, something from an alternate (non-mainstream) reality. In a worst case scenario, wherein I find the retcon to be totally incompatible with earlier stories but the Powers That Be at "New" Marvel are absolutely indifferent to this fact, then I would adopt a "grin-and-bear-it" attitude and resign myself to settling down to hope that some future writing team would realize the HORRIBLE MISTAKE that had been made and write a storyline that undid the retcon. And yes, that is what I'm doing with regards to SPIDER-WOMAN: ORIGIN.

In the case of THOR: SON OF ASGARD, I was quite disappointed that the writer didn't bother to work with (or even around) the original stories by Lee and Kirby. Personally, I dismissed T:SOA as "not applying to the current Asgard" soon after it began straying TOO far from previously-established continuity. But that's just me.
Somebody wrote:
DonCampbell wrote:I think it is a DRASTIC overstatement to claim that most of what the Eye of Odin told Thor is "absolute bunk." Personally, I rather liked the Eye's account of how the previous Asgard ended and how the current Asgard was born. Also, as far as I know, no alternate explanation for how the Ragnarok cycle works has yet been put forward so we might as well accept the Eye's story (albeit with a notation that it MIGHT not be accurate).
Fair enough. I think the weight of evidence against it has reached critical mass by this point, however. To wit (and I'm pulling this example out of thin air - any resemblance to any actual story past, present or future is purely coincidental) if one issue features Character X spinning a tale of how he was born as an only child into an poor family, how he was shot at by the Punisher who was looking for a mob boss, and how that led him to invent a suit of armour and declare revenge against the Punisher... only for it to be later revealed that he was never an only child, and that he stole the armour... I would dump the rest of the FB on the basis that it's been shown to be unreliable regardless of whether other FBs have superceded those bits.

Hell, the way the Loeb/Sale "colour" series have been treated mirrors that - the framing sequences are in the MCP, but the FBs (even the bits that don't contradict other material) aren't.
I see your point and I mostly agree with it. Regarding your Punisher example, I would agree with you that Character X's earlier origin/FB should be dumped (preferably with some explanation/retcon that established that it was actually ALWAYS false). However, in the case of the Eye of Odin's story, I really don't think that there is anywhere near a "critical mass of evidence" against it yet. The thing is, although the idea that there have been multiple Asgards has (now) been firmly established, nobody has yet provided any details about exactly what happens between Asgards...EXCEPT for the Eye of Odin. Thus, in the absence of any "competing" explanation, I am totally willing to accept the Eye's version of how Old Asgards die and New Asgards are reborn. And I will remain supportive of that version until such time as some writer sees fit to produce a "multiple Asgards" story that does provide those missing details.

Also, that information about the Loeb/Sale "colour" series surprises me. I must say that I really don't see the point of including the framing sequences in the MCP if all of the flashbacks are left out. It seems to me that this is an all-or-nothing situation: either accept the FBs as a retcon (that overwrites earlier stories) or dismiss all of the series as "out-of-continuity."

Don Campbell

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Re: Time of Tales of Asgard, Raven Banner, etc.

Post by ChastMastr » Fri Aug 01, 2008 4:24 pm

DonCampbell wrote:Okay, here we have a difference of opinion because there are some cases where I would absolutely be willing to throw out a whole series.
Oh, I feel that way about so many books and storylines these days, LOL (Illuminati, Wolverine Origins, Romulus, etc.) -- especially as I personally (and not for purposes of the Chronology Project, which I understand must treat the current status quo, whatever Marvel does, as formal canon until the next retcon comes along -- I mean in my own reading and enjoyment) consider a lot of the older stories to be at least an alternate universe to the retconned alterations we've had. (Out there somewhere, there is a Marvel Universe in which Logan had memory implants but was not manipulated so badly, and never did the really dishonorable and horrible things they've shown him doing years ago; where Reed never kept Illuminati-ish secrets from Sue and Xavier didn't hide a "secret team" of X-Men who died, including Vulcan, from anyone especially Scott and Alex; where Peter (and or MJ) never made a deal with Mephisto and lived happily ever after... and when I read older stories which didn't have those backstories in mind, as far as I am personally concerned, that's the Marvel Universe I'm reading about, maybe not 616 but 616 and a half, or 615, or something, but to me personally that world is just as far removed from present 616 as Spider-Girl or Marvel Adventures or the Ultimate books. I'm sure five years from now half of this will be retconned away anyway but I do know for now this is the official status quo -- and I still want to understand it, and I'm still really confused!)

So... like... if I got into Dr. Doom's time machine and went back to 800s AD Norway... and Thor showed up -- would he be the present Thor who ultimately joined the Avengers, or some previous version of Thor? *brickwall* I'm still kind of lost. And, of course, what Vikings (if not the ones from 616, 800s AD era Norway) worshipped the previous Thors? Since there have been at least 24 Ragnaroks and each cycle goes on for hundreds (?) of years.... aaaaa, my head is exploding now.

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Re: Time of Tales of Asgard, Raven Banner, etc.

Post by Enda80 » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:03 pm

DonCampbell wrote:
Somebody wrote:
DonCampbell wrote:And let's not forget that "Tiwaz" himself was lying to Thor the whole time they were together since he was, in actuality, Thor's own great-grandfather, BURI. So I would take anything that "Tiwaz" said with a grain of salt.
Thing is though - by the Eye's account there WAS NO Buri to father Bor, nor Bor to father Odin. Buri/Tiwaz's very existence goes against the Eye's story.
It's funny you should mention that. When I first read THOR #349 & 355, it seemed that I would have to decide between the two origins of Odin (i.e. that one origin was "true" and that the other one was thus "false"). However, I later realized that that wasn't the case. The concept that there had been (at least) two different incarnations of Asgard meant that MAYBE the different origins were NOT contradictory because they were actually connected to different Asgards. With that in mind, I had no trouble jumping to the conclusion that maybe Buri/Tiwaz was from the earlier/first Asgard in which he did father Bor who then fathered Odin, Vili and Ve. Of course, that would mean that Buri must have somehow survived the Ragnarok that destroyed Old Asgard but that didn't seem like much of a problem, and it was a small price to pay for preserving the two different origin stories.
I had just such a solution in mind, so for Thor's Avenger 2004 Handbook, I suggested to the writers of the Handbook the following wording:

Thor is the thunder god of the Asgardians, a race worshipped in the
past as the Norse Gods. Thor's grandfather, Buri, was born untold eons ago,
the first god in a realm formerly populated only by the Frost Giant Ymir and
the great cow Audmilla. Buri eventually took a Frost Giantess wife, giving
birth to Bor, who in turn married the giantess Bestia, spawning Odin, Villi,
and Ve. The Asgardians of that and succeeding generations have lived through
cycles of destruction and rebirth, the most recent of which occurred
approximately two thousand years ago."

So, I had in mind that Ymir and Buri stood outside of the cyclical rebirth. (One problem I had with Thor I#293-294 is that there is a panel in one of this issues that is a direct reference to Thor Annual#5 where the eye seems to indicate that Ymir was only a fable told by Odin, which sounds problematic if one considers Avengers I#61 where Ymir attacks Wakanda and the dozens of reference to Ymir in the Hyborian Era.)

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Re: Time of Tales of Asgard, Raven Banner, etc.

Post by Enda80 » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:11 pm

ChastMastr wrote:
DonCampbell wrote:Okay, here we have a difference of opinion because there are some cases where I would absolutely be willing to throw out a whole series.
Oh, I feel that way about so many books and storylines these days, LOL (Illuminati, Wolverine Origins, Romulus, etc.) -- especially as I personally (and not for purposes of the Chronology Project, which I understand must treat the current status quo, whatever Marvel does, as formal canon until the next retcon comes along -- I mean in my own reading and enjoyment) consider a lot of the older stories to be at least an alternate universe to the retconned alterations we've had. (Out there somewhere, there is a Marvel Universe in which Logan had memory implants but was not manipulated so badly, and never did the really dishonorable and horrible things they've shown him doing years ago; where Reed never kept Illuminati-ish secrets from Sue and Xavier didn't hide a "secret team" of X-Men who died, including Vulcan, from anyone especially Scott and Alex; where Peter (and or MJ) never made a deal with Mephisto and lived happily ever after... and when I read older stories which didn't have those backstories in mind, as far as I am personally concerned, that's the Marvel Universe I'm reading about, maybe not 616 but 616 and a half, or 615, or something, but to me personally that world is just as far removed from present 616 as Spider-Girl or Marvel Adventures or the Ultimate books. I'm sure five years from now half of this will be retconned away anyway but I do know for now this is the official status quo -- and I still want to understand it, and I'm still really confused!)

So... like... if I got into Dr. Doom's time machine and went back to 800s AD Norway... and Thor showed up -- would he be the present Thor who ultimately joined the Avengers, or some previous version of Thor? *brickwall* I'm still kind of lost. And, of course, what Vikings (if not the ones from 616, 800s AD era Norway) worshipped the previous Thors? Since there have been at least 24 Ragnaroks and each cycle goes on for hundreds (?) of years.... aaaaa, my head is exploding now.
As I have mentioned, in the Hyborian Age, the people of Nordheim worshipped an incarnation of the Asgardians.

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Re: Time of Tales of Asgard, Raven Banner, etc.

Post by Somebody » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:32 pm

ChastMastr wrote:[So... like... if I got into Dr. Doom's time machine and went back to 800s AD Norway... and Thor showed up -- would he be the present Thor who ultimately joined the Avengers
Yes.

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*takes another post to reply to DC, to leave the "yes" as-is

Post by Somebody » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:53 pm

DonCampbell wrote:
Somebody wrote:
DonCampbell wrote:And let's not forget that "Tiwaz" himself was lying to Thor the whole time they were together since he was, in actuality, Thor's own great-grandfather, BURI. So I would take anything that "Tiwaz" said with a grain of salt.
Thing is though - by the Eye's account there WAS NO Buri to father Bor, nor Bor to father Odin. Buri/Tiwaz's very existence goes against the Eye's story.
It's funny you should mention that. When I first read THOR #349 & 355, it seemed that I would have to decide between the two origins of Odin (i.e. that one origin was "true" and that the other one was thus "false"). However, I later realized that that wasn't the case. The concept that there had been (at least) two different incarnations of Asgard meant that MAYBE the different origins were NOT contradictory because they were actually connected to different Asgards. With that in mind, I had no trouble jumping to the conclusion that maybe Buri/Tiwaz was from the earlier/first Asgard in which he did father Bor who then fathered Odin, Vili and Ve. Of course, that would mean that Buri must have somehow survived the Ragnarok that destroyed Old Asgard but that didn't seem like much of a problem, and it was a small price to pay for preserving the two different origin stories.
But then- by your version - Buri/Tiwaz isn't Thor's great-grandfather. At all. He's the grandfather of an Odin who is dead, buried, and who doesn't form even part of the extant Odin.

This argument reminds me of a passage from a recent cause célèbre court case here, wherein one witness tried to argue that when he said someone was "under the impression", he meant a fact had been impressed upon them, rather than the universal usage as "they thought that". As the judge said, "It is simply a question of construing the English language in an idiomatic way. Being "under the impression" is not to be equated with having it impressed on one. This again is disingenuous."
DonCampbell wrote:
Somebody wrote:And if it comes down to throwing one already-unreliable flashback out, or throwing a whole series (Thor: Son of Asgard) out wholesale... I'll go with the series. Especially since there was more against SW:O than against T:SOA.
Okay, here we have a difference of opinion because there are some cases where I would absolutely be willing to throw out a whole series. Of course, that would not be my first choice. At best, I think that contradicting elements should be "explained away" in such a way that as little damage as possible is done to the competing stories. If this proved to be impossible, then I would be in favour of throwing one of the combatants out of "mainstream" continuity by declaring it to be (essentially) a What If? story, something from an alternate (non-mainstream) reality.
And usually *I'M* the one who's the exclusionist :). I'll come back to this in a moment, considering that the last part of your post is the better for replying to, but it comes down to objective vs. subjective. The latter are inherently far less reliable.
DonCampbell wrote:However, in the case of the Eye of Odin's story, I really don't think that there is anywhere near a "critical mass of evidence" against it yet. The thing is, although the idea that there have been multiple Asgards has (now) been firmly established, nobody has yet provided any details about exactly what happens between Asgards...EXCEPT for the Eye of Odin. Thus, in the absence of any "competing" explanation, I am totally willing to accept the Eye's version of how Old Asgards die and New Asgards are reborn. And I will remain supportive of that version until such time as some writer sees fit to produce a "multiple Asgards" story that does provide those missing details.
Again, see below (when a critical mass of a story is undermined, as the EoO's is, IMO, then the rest of it goes regardless of whether it's directly contradicted or not) - but there's the additional detail that T2 85 provided a key detail about what happens between Ragnaroks from an objective viewpoint. The Norns unravel their tapestry, undo the history it shows, and start again. There's no hint of history being unwound in the rather prosiac "everyone dies, then the survivors merge and create new people from action figures".
DonCampbell wrote:Also, that information about the Loeb/Sale "colour" series surprises me. I must say that I really don't see the point of including the framing sequences in the MCP if all of the flashbacks are left out. It seems to me that this is an all-or-nothing situation: either accept the FBs as a retcon (that overwrites earlier stories) or dismiss all of the series as "out-of-continuity."
Here's the thing - like the Eye of Odin's story, the "meat" of the L/S "colour" books is a series of subjective flashbacks on the part of the lead character, as either told to another character or as a record being made. The framing sequences, on the other hand, are objective - they're being shown from an omniscient viewpoint.

The objective viewpoint can't really be argued with - you either accept it (possibly with rationalisations), or you don't. In the case of the "colour" books, there's no reason not to accept the objective portion in its' own right.

The subjective viewpoint, however, is far more complicated. Subjective flashbacks are inherently unreliable for any number of reasons - they're prone to mistakes, misrememberings, distortions, delusions and outright lies. Think of a period of your own life, and try and put everything into chronological order with no mistakes without reference to any other sources. They can be accepted, to a point - but that point is when they are corroborated or contradicted by another source, especially an objective one. After a significant part of it is contradicted, then the whole thing becomes too unreliable to use as a source in its' own right. That came with each of the "colour" books, and I say it came and went for the Eye of Odin's tale long ago.

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Re: Time of Tales of Asgard, Raven Banner, etc.

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:18 pm

...action figures?
-Daron Jensen

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Re: Time of Tales of Asgard, Raven Banner, etc.

Post by Somebody » Fri Aug 01, 2008 11:55 pm

Well, little figurines that he turns into full-grown versions of the Asgardians & Asgard-related bad guys, anyway (including Balder, whose birth as a baby is a key part of the current Thor storyline - and who, along with Sif, grew around the same time as Thor, per Thor: Son of Asgard).

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Re: Time of Tales of Asgard, Raven Banner, etc.

Post by ChastMastr » Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:28 pm

Enda80 wrote:As I have mentioned, in the Hyborian Age, the people of Nordheim worshipped an incarnation of the Asgardians.
So then, if I'm reading this right, we have Viking-ish people in the Hyborian Age who worshipped one iteration of the Asgardians -- and the current (well, most recent before Straczynski, the Kirby ones) iteration was worshipped by the Vikings -- but what about the other at-LEAST-22-maybe-more iterations of Asgard? If we've had the last "crop" (as it were) for the last 2000 years, then does this mean that the 616 actual Norse (not Nordheim) Vikings were only connected to the Kirby iteration, and if the other variants had other worshippers, they were some other tribe or group?
(Of course, given that the MU has a zillion or so parallel Earths in it, arguably the 24+ other Asgardian incarnations could easily be parcelled out to various other Earths, so maybe some Earth that never had an Avengers at all or met the Kirby Loki, Thor, etc. had Vikings (and/or Nordheimers) that had contact with the Asgardians from Iteration 16, or 32 or whatever else -- unless they really ARE exclusively linked to just Earth 616... of course maybe not all incarnations of the Asgardians went to Earth in the first place or had contact with the Vikings or Viking-like peoples (Nordheim folks etc.).)

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Re: Time of Tales of Asgard, Raven Banner, etc.

Post by Enda80 » Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:01 pm

"So then, if I'm reading this right, we have Viking-ish people in the Hyborian Age who worshipped one iteration of the Asgardians -- and the current (well, most recent before Straczynski, the Kirby ones) iteration was worshipped by the Vikings -- but what about the other at-LEAST-22-maybe-more iterations of Asgard?"

Ulysses Bloodstone was a Nordheimr Vanir, and he survived into the modern era. Perhaps he worshipped them.

An issue of Quasar has the Un-being claiming Origin led the Asgardians to Earth.

An article in Savage Sword indicated that the people of Thule may have served as ancestors of the Nordheimr. In Sub-Mariner I#62-63, Kamuu invokes Valhalla. Note that during the later Hyborian Age, Ymir ruled a realm called Valhalla.

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FAO: Enda80

Post by Somebody » Sun Aug 03, 2008 1:57 pm

Enda, you may notice that stuff you posted in this topic has vanished. This is because it was completely off-topic. Please, I know you find it difficult, but please TRY and stick to the basic subject of the thread, rather than completely digressing like that as you so often do. Otherwise you may find more posts disappear.

[Also, please try not to make multiple posts in a row. There's occasionally the need for it, but the word is "occasional", not "usually". You originally made three posts in a row here, which is not on.]

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