Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

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Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by PopularLoser » Wed Jun 25, 2008 8:28 pm

So MA #15 reveals how Hank Pym was replaced by a Skrull which seems to be at some point after The New Avengers go public (circa NA #14-16) but in NA #42 there is a scene where Spider-Woman/Skrull Queen has a meeting with the Skrull Hank Pym right after the Raft Breakout (circa NA #1-6). Maybe I'm missing something, and I've been thinking about this all afternoon, but I just don't see a clean way to reconcile these two issues. Perhaps the calender guys or the Avengers experts here can see what I'm missing.

And just so we're clear, even though both of these were written by Bendis and they're both integral to Secret Invasion, I'm not interested in replies that do nothing but bemoan Bendis for shoddy temporal references or poor research. That's won't solve the discrepancy.
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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by JD » Thu Jun 26, 2008 12:51 am

PopularLoser wrote:So MA #15 reveals how Hank Pym was replaced by a Skrull which seems to be at some point after The New Avengers go public (circa NA #14-16)
Er, no. If you look carefully at the newspaper article, the speculative title ("Avengers Reassembled ?") and the picture (Spider-Man & Cap) point towards it being just after the Raft breakout.

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by PopularLoser » Thu Jun 26, 2008 4:40 am

I suppose that works as an explanations (the picture in question is of course some Dave Finch art from the Breakout arc). I just don't see why a team-up of Captain America, Spider-Man and Wolverine would cause anyone to speculate that this is a new Avengers team. At least not at that point in time in the Marvel Universe. But, like I said, I guess that works.
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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Somebody » Thu Jun 26, 2008 5:09 am

PopularLoser wrote:I suppose that works as an explanations (the picture in question is of course some Dave Finch art from the Breakout arc). I just don't see why a team-up of Captain America, Spider-Man and Wolverine would cause anyone to speculate that this is a new Avengers team. At least not at that point in time in the Marvel Universe. But, like I said, I guess that works.
1) If the picture's in direct reference to the NA 1-6, does it matter whether it makes sense? It simply... is.
2) What you DIDN'T see was the "Avengers Reassembled?" headlines in relation to the Captain America/Speedball/Living Pharoah II team-up the week before. And the Iron Man/Justice/Slapstick team-up the week before that :)

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by morwen » Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:16 am

MA#15 also confirms there is at least a 2-month gap between Ultron attack in MA#1-#6 and SI#1.

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Mikhail » Fri Jun 27, 2008 5:50 pm

The problem is, though, that Skrull-Jessica met with Skrull-Hank in New Avengers #42 BEFORE accepting the offer to join the Avengers, before the end of New Avengers #3. They were discussing whether she should join the Avengers. Meanwhile in Mighty Avengers #15, Hank Pym learns about the Raft breakout from the Skrull who would eventually replace him, at the start of their relationship which lasted at least several days.

So...
In New Avengers #42, Hank Pym is already a Skrull and learns about the Raft incident from the Skrull Spider-Woman, before she joins the team.
In Mighty Avengers #15, Hank Pym learns about the Raft incident some time before he becomes a Skrull.

Uh?

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Somebody » Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:13 pm

YELLOWJACKET IV/"HENRY 'HANK' PYM" III [SKRULL]
A4 42 (practices impersonating Pym, meets "Spider-Woman", learns of Raft breakout)
MA 15 (tells real Pym of Raft breakout, seduces him)
[...]

Anyone see an alternative?

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:20 am

Check it out!
Tom Brevoort wrote:I’ve actually been keeping a detailed timeline indicating where all of the events of SECRET INVASION fall. Here’s a portion of that timeline, covering the period in question:


AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED – AVENGERS #500-503

Elektra Skrull takes over Hand, mentions Avengers are no more – MIGHTY #16
Nick Fury found by Contessa Skrull – MIGHTY #12
Nick Fury kills Contessa Skrull – MIGHTY #12
Nick Fury becomes aware of Skrull conspiracy – MIGHTY #12
Nick Fury warns Maria Hill on Helicarrier – MIGHTY #12
Nick Fury tells Spider-Woman about the Skrulls, not realizing she’s a Skrull – MIGHTY #12
Real Hank lectures at U of Oxford – MIGHTY #15
Real Hank and Jan separate – MIGHTY #15
Skrull Elektra hires Electro for Raft breakout – MIGHTY #16

RAFT BREAKOUT – NEW AVENGERS #1-3

Real Hank and Skrull “Gwen” canoodle, see news of press conference – MIGHTY #15
Hank replaced by Skrull “Gwen” – MIGHTY #15

NEW AVENGERS FORM – NEW AVENGERS #3-4

Skrull Jessica and Skrull Hank discuss the Raft breakout and her joining New Avengers– NEW #42
Ka-Zar and Shanna discover Skrulls among SHIELD in Savage Land, including Contessa – NEW #41 – (This would be the 2nd Contessa Skrull)


So hopefully, this’ll give some people the answers they’re looking for. And on at least one of the other big seeming-conundrums vexing SECRET INVASION readers, the answer is coming in one of the books next month.
And there it is!
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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Paul Bourcier » Wed Jul 23, 2008 7:35 am

Thanks, Fury. This is indeed helpful. Given this, here's a piece of chronology I propose for Hank Pym:

[Dec 2]
A:FINALE
Pym announces he's moving to England in "a month." I theorize that this move was postponed.

[Dec 9]
TB 104 (1-19)

[Dec 22]
CW 3 (10-14:4)
IM/CA:CW 1-FB (5:3-5:4)
CA5 23-FB (8:2)
CW:FL 6 (6-7:3)

[Jan 1]
ASM 534 (3-6)

[Jan 2]
CW:FL 9 (4-12)

[March 5]
W3 22

[March 27-29]
IAM 1-FB (3-7)
IAM 1-FB (8-11)
IAM 1-FB (12-19)

[April 8]
IAM 3-FB (8-16)

BTS, Hank and Jan then move to England, where they've been for "a month" when the next appearance occurs...

[May 15]
MA 15 (1-4)

[May 16]
MA 15 (5)

[May 19]
MA 15 (6-18)
Right after the Raft breakout, Hank is replaced by a Skrull
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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Mikhail » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:32 pm

I must be reading it wrong, because that chronology makes no sense to me. Are you putting Civil War (Thunderbolts #104) less than a week after Avengers Disassembled (Dec 2 - Dec 9), and the Raft breakout after Civil War? :shock:

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Somebody » Wed Jul 23, 2008 5:42 pm

Indeed. New Tbolts #11 is a House of M issue (and unlike the out-of-sequence Cap & Black Panther, it's led into in the previous issue). Then NuTB #13-14 have the New Avengers guest-star, and involve Pym. Then TB 103-105 are CIVIL WAR tie-ins.

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:00 pm

That should probably read:

[Dec 2] YEAR 22
A:FINALE
Pym announces he's moving to England in "a month." I theorize that this move was postponed.

[Dec 9] YEAR 23
TB 104 (1-19)

[Dec 22]
CW 3 (10-14:4)
IM/CA:CW 1-FB (5:3-5:4)
CA5 23-FB (8:2)
CW:FL 6 (6-7:3)

[Jan 1] YEAR 24
ASM 534 (3-6)

Which would mean that the move was 'postponed' from a month to almost a year and a half.
-Daron Jensen

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Paul Bourcier » Wed Jul 23, 2008 10:20 pm

Looks like my post didn't take. Okay, here we go again:

YIKES! I messed that up! :oops: I was rushing to get out the door this AM and mistakenly grabbed dates from different years as I was bouncing back and forth between two open files. Glad to know you guys are paying attention. Here's what I meant to post:

[Dec 2]
A:FINALE
Pym announces he's moving to England in "a month." I theorize that this move was postponed.

[March 5]
W3 22

[March 27-29]
IAM 1-FB (3-7)
IAM 1-FB (8-11)
IAM 1-FB (12-19)

[April 8]
IAM 3-FB (8-16)

BTS, Hank and Jan then move to England, where they've been for "a month" when the next appearance occurs...

[May 15]
MA 15 (1-4)

[May 16]
MA 15 (5)

[May 19]
MA 15 (6-18)
Right after the Raft breakout, Hank is replaced by a Skrull

My point is that Brevoort's chronology works with the calendar if we infer that the Pyms' move to England was postponed. And that would actually explain Pym's appearances in W3 and IAM, too. Agreed?
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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Mikhail » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:08 pm

Wow. 5 months. Bendis-Time is almost like real time, by which I mean Marvel-Time.

I would like to point out, for the record, that when Hulkling, the half-Skrull, knocked out Hank Pym and replaced him in Civil War #6, he was actually a Skrull replacing a Skrull. That just makes my brain bend in funny ways.

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:21 pm

Tom Brevoort wrote:
AVENGERS DISASSEMBLED – AVENGERS #500-503
Elektra Skrull takes over Hand, mentions Avengers are no more – MIGHTY #16
Actually, in that flashback in MA 16 in which Elektra takes over the Hand, the Hydra leader states, “word from America is that the mighty Avengers have disbanded in failure.” This might be a reference to the team's official disbanding in A:FINALE, "three months" after A 503. Here's the chronology that leads me to this conclusion:

GIANT-SIZE SPIDER-WOMAN #1
A reference to "whatever the hell happened at Avengers Mansion that killed
half the team" is to A 503.

NEW AVENGERS #14 – FB (9:5-11)
The same day as GSSW 1. Connely tells Jessica that Hydra will give her her powers back if she gets reinstated by SHIELD and agrees to be a double agent for the bad guys. Jessica meets with Fury, who asks her work against Hydra as a double agent for SHIELD.

NEW AVENGERS #14 – FB (12)
Perhaps the day after A4 14-FB (9-11). In a Hydra lab, Jessica begins the procedure that will restore her powers.

NEW AVENGERS #42 (3-7)
The same day as A4 14-FB (12). After Jessica loses consciousness, the Hydra doctors are revealed as Skrulls, and Veranke undergoes the process to become a Spider-Woman imposter, with all Jessica’s memories.

MIGHTY AVENGERS #16 – FB (17-18)
This flashback must occur after A4 42 (3-7) since Veranke appears as Jessica Drew. Pagon, the Elektra Skrull, meets with Veranke in New York. They embrace as Veranke notes the sacrifice the Elektra Skrull will make in bringing earth to its knees.

MIGHTY AVENGERS #16 – FB (19-22)
Probably the same night as A:FINALE. This flashback occurs “one week” after MA 16-FB (17-18). In Japan, a Hydra leader informs the Hand that “word from America is that the mighty Avengers have disbanded in failure” (probably the official disbanding) and that “Tony Stark embarrassed himself” at the U.N. (a months-old reference). He calls for unity between Hydra and Hand, then the Elektra Skrull kills him and tells the Hand they sicken her by working for terrorists. She beheads a Hand leader in battle and the assembled assassins kneel in fealty to her.


So, Spider-Woman is replaced by Veranke after Disassembled.
Then Veranke, as Jessica, meets with the Elektra Skrull*
Then the Elektra Skrull takes over the Hand when there is news of the Avengers' disbanding.

[*Hey, Jeph, is the Elektra Skrull named Pagon (as noted in MA 16) or Siri (as noted in SKRULLS!). Nice work on SKRULLS!, by the way! :) ]


BUT I see a big problem:
Before GSSW 1, in A4 40 (15-21), Veranke decides to take on Jessica's identity after the Elektra Skrull tells her she's been on earth "for the last cycle," and has "had communication and interaction with SHIELD commander Nick Fury, a man code-named Daredevil, the mutant Wolverine, and members of the assassin consortium known as the Hand. My identity was not detected." Is this a reference to the whole W3 20-31 story arc? I have that story arc as happening after A:FINALE, not before. Is MA 16–FB (19-22) telling us that the Enemy of the State and Wolverine: Agent of SHIELD arcs occur prior to the Avengers disbanding?
:?

OR, could the "word from America" not be news at all but just an observation about the months-old situation in the U.S.? That way, MA 16-FB (19-22) could occur after where I have W3 31 but before the Raft breakout that brings the Avengers back together. This is my preference, and is still in keeping with Brevoort's chronology (complete with gap after A 503).
Paul B.

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