Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Somebody » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:45 pm

Elektra is killed in Enemy of the State (before being resurrected by the Hand), and doesn't turn Skrully. Are you trying to say you want to place the Elektra replacement BETWEEN the panel of her being resurrected, and her following appearance?

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Paul Bourcier » Mon Jul 28, 2008 7:11 am

Somebody wrote:
Elektra is killed in Enemy of the State (before being resurrected by the Hand), and doesn't turn Skrully. Are you trying to say you want to place the Elektra replacement BETWEEN the panel of her being resurrected, and her following appearance?
Good point. You've just shown that the Elektra who was involved in Enemy of the State cannot have been the Elektra Skrull. I was thinking that the Elektra Skrull's reference in A4 40 to having met Logan, Fury, Daredevil, and the Hand was supposed to be a reference to Enemy of the State, but it can't be. So I wonder if those encounters were published or BTS.

Given Somebody's point above and my point about Finale, recent Secret Invasion flashbacks appear to suggest the following order:

Avengers Disassembled
Enemy of the State/Wolverine: Agent of SHIELD
Elektra: The Hand
Avengers Finale ("three months" after Disassembled)
Elektra is replaced by a Skrull
Elektra Skrull somehow meets Logan, Fury, Matt ?? (a "cycle" goes by)
Elektra Skrull reports to Veranke, who decides to replace Jessica Drew
Veranke replaces Jessica
Veranke/Jessica meets with Elektra Skrull
Elektra Skrull takes over the Hand
Elektra noted as having taken over the Hand in W3 31 (19-23) ("eleven weeks" after Wolverine: Agent of SHIELD

Is this right? Are other interpretations possible?

This is why I'm waiting to post a Calendar update. I think Secret Invasion is going to cause major reshuffling. :shock:
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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by wolframbane » Mon Jul 28, 2008 1:43 pm

For what its worth, the recent SKRULLS! Handbook revealed that the Elektra Skrull impostor is actually name Siri or Agent Siri.

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Somebody » Mon Jul 28, 2008 2:36 pm

Paul Bourcier wrote:[*Hey, Jeph, is the Elektra Skrull named Pagon (as noted in MA 16) or Siri (as noted in SKRULLS!). Nice work on SKRULLS!, by the way! :) ]
wolframbane wrote:For what its worth, the recent SKRULLS! Handbook revealed that the Elektra Skrull impostor is actually name Siri or Agent Siri.
:?

Reading post you're replying to = helpful. SKRULLS! appears to contradict MA 16, which is what's at issue - just quoting SKRULLS! in reply to that doesn't help.

I say go with the comic, in the absence of a further source. Maybe Siri was the first Skrull Elektra/Blazing Skull that got killed by the real Elektra, and the contradictory mention in SKRULLS" was a "typo"/unupdated record.

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Col_Fury » Mon Jul 28, 2008 11:39 pm

Somebody wrote:I say go with the comic, in the absence of a further source. Maybe Siri was the first Skrull Elektra/Blazing Skull that got killed by the real Elektra, and the contradictory mention in SKRULLS" was a "typo"/unupdated record.
I like that.
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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Somebody » Tue Jul 29, 2008 3:12 pm

General points:

1) Paul B - you currently have E:HAND placed after W3 31... uh, why? Surely if the intention is to conflate the resurrection from EotS/W:AoS with the E:HAND framing sequence, it should be placed synchronously with W3 24 (22), the resurrection scene [where, incidentally, her face is on full display - she just has a white sheet under her arms, but over the rest of her torso].
2) If Marvel Nemesis: The Imperfects is really intended to be canon (I still have doubts), AN Elektra meets Wolverine & Daredevil in that, and you've taken it as canon and placed it after W:EotS/AoS. Put it between Elektra being replaced and Skrullectra taking over the Hand in MA 16-FB.

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Paul Bourcier » Wed Jul 30, 2008 7:01 am

Excellent suggestions, Somebody. My impression is that Elektra was merely brainwashed, not brought back to life, during Enemy of the State, but I suppose Gorgon or the Hand could have killed her BTS. Since don't have E:HAND, I need to know how W3 24 (22) ties into that series chronologically. And this would have to be the real Elektra, since she didn't revert to Skrull form upon dying, so it's further confirmation that EotS must occur prior to Skrullektra.

Marvel Nemesis: The Imperfects would provide a good opportunity for Skrullektra to meet Logan and Matt, and there isn't much to tie this series to anything else, so I suppose this could move. Somebody, why do you believe this series to be non-canonical?

(Boy, do I have a lot of shifting to do on the Calendar. Ugh.)
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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Somebody » Wed Jul 30, 2008 5:34 pm

Paul Bourcier wrote:Excellent suggestions, Somebody. My impression is that Elektra was merely brainwashed, not brought back to life, during Enemy of the State, but I suppose Gorgon or the Hand could have killed her BTS.
W3 29 (20:4-21:1):
Wolverine: "I thought-- I thought they murdered you and raised you from the dead."
Elektra: "They did."
Wolverine: "I thought you'd gone over to their side"
Elektra: "So did they. But I've been killed and resurrected by the Hand before. Hell holds few surprises for me now."
(I think Gorgon's Big Final Punch was meant to have broken her neck, although they didn't put a sound effect in to confirm it)
Paul Bourcier wrote:Since I don't have E:HAND, I need to know how W3 24 (22) ties into that series chronologically. And this would have to be the real Elektra, since she didn't revert to Skrull form upon dying, so it's further confirmation that EotS must occur prior to Skrullektra.
I don't have it, I'm going on the stuff in Archives 61 & 68. According to those, the framing sequence is clearly intended to take place during her resurrection post-DD 181 (even down to a "years ago" note); but the writer apparently botched it. In Archive 68, it was suggested that it take place during her Enemy of the State resurrection, and that appears to have been accepted. I supported that at the time, but I'm a lot less sure after closely checking over W:EotS/AoS there, based on Sean C's description of the ELEK:HAND scene...
Paul Bourcier wrote:Marvel Nemesis: The Imperfects would provide a good opportunity for Skrullektra to meet Logan and Matt, and there isn't much to tie this series to anything else, so I suppose this could move. Somebody, why do you believe this series to be non-canonical?
It's a game tie-in miniseries, and involves having the game characters (owned by that company) in the MU. More on basic principle than any specifics, as there's been no crossover or follow-up in other titles.

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by JephYork » Sat Sep 13, 2008 5:32 pm

I wrote the Siri entry in "SKRULLS!", and I got the name from New Avengers #40 p.18.

This isn't a case of comic vs. handbook -- this is two comics, both written by the same guy, contradicting each other. Hoorah!

Maybe she's one of those rare Skrulls that has two names, like Karant Kiar? Maybe her full name is Siri Pagon.

-Jeph!
Somebody wrote:
Paul Bourcier wrote:[*Hey, Jeph, is the Elektra Skrull named Pagon (as noted in MA 16) or Siri (as noted in SKRULLS!). Nice work on SKRULLS!, by the way! :) ]
wolframbane wrote:For what its worth, the recent SKRULLS! Handbook revealed that the Elektra Skrull impostor is actually name Siri or Agent Siri.
:?

Reading post you're replying to = helpful. SKRULLS! appears to contradict MA 16, which is what's at issue - just quoting SKRULLS! in reply to that doesn't help.

I say go with the comic, in the absence of a further source. Maybe Siri was the first Skrull Elektra/Blazing Skull that got killed by the real Elektra, and the contradictory mention in SKRULLS" was a "typo"/unupdated record.

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Somebody » Sat Sep 13, 2008 6:00 pm

jephyork wrote:I wrote the Siri entry in "SKRULLS!", and I got the name from New Avengers #40 p.18.

This isn't a case of comic vs. handbook -- this is two comics, both written by the same guy, contradicting each other. Hoorah!

Maybe she's one of those rare Skrulls that has two names, like Karant Kiar? Maybe her full name is Siri Pagon.
*checks comics*

Jeph is, as you'd expect, right. I don't like the "first name/surname" option since skrulls DO tend toward one name (and surely, unless the name order is Surname Forename, it would be Pagon Siri?).

Two other options:
1) Agent Siri is a codename, like Agent 13 or Agent K (of MiB).
2) "Pagon" is a term of endearment between skrulls, meaning "Beloved" or somesuch.

Of the two, given the context of the scenes and the fact that SKRULLS! comes down on one side, I prefer "Pagon" being a term of endearment rather than a name.

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by cweed4 » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:18 am

Not sure if the Elektra mystery is still unresolved but I just recently listened to the latest Wordballoon Bendis interview and he said the Skrulls replaced her after EotS. As for the two different Skrullektra names, it has been suggested that Elektra killed more than 1 skrull during multiple attempted replacements.

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by cweed4 » Thu Sep 25, 2008 9:13 pm

jephyork wrote:Maybe she's one of those rare Skrulls that has two names, like Karant Kiar? Maybe her full name is Siri Pagon.
And like the Hank Pym skrull in NA 45- Criti Noll.

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Somebody » Thu Nov 06, 2008 9:17 pm

cweed4 wrote:And like the Hank Pym skrull in NA 45- Criti Noll.
Been looking through some SI books there (are we going to get a definitive once-and-for-all list of who was replaced - and perhaps more importantly for us, when they were replaced, since it'll be crucial for their chronologies?), and "Criti Noll" can't be a Hank Pym skrull's name for one simple reason - at least two separate Skrullowjackets were called "Criti Noll" during the course of MA 17 (the one killed in the issue is addressed as "Criti Noll" by the Duganskrull, and the replacement at the end of the issue asserts himself as "Criti Noll" before he asserts the human ID).

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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Kevin W. » Thu Nov 06, 2008 11:23 pm

Somebody wrote:
cweed4 wrote:And like the Hank Pym skrull in NA 45- Criti Noll.
Been looking through some SI books there (are we going to get a definitive once-and-for-all list of who was replaced - and perhaps more importantly for us, when they were replaced, since it'll be crucial for their chronologies?), and "Criti Noll" can't be a Hank Pym skrull's name for one simple reason - at least two separate Skrullowjackets were called "Criti Noll" during the course of MA 17 (the one killed in the issue is addressed as "Criti Noll" by the Duganskrull, and the replacement at the end of the issue asserts himself as "Criti Noll" before he asserts the human ID).
When I read that issue, (with the part where the "new" Yellowjacket declares himself "Criti Noll") I just assumed it was part of the spell, to help take the memories of the dead Criti Noll, along with the memories of Yellow Jacket, so that the transformation was flawless.
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Re: Hank Pym/Skrull in Mighty Avengers #15/New Avengers #42

Post by Somebody » Fri Nov 07, 2008 12:13 am

Kevin W. wrote:When I read that issue, (with the part where the "new" Yellowjacket declares himself "Criti Noll") I just assumed it was part of the spell, to help take the memories of the dead Criti Noll, along with the memories of Yellow Jacket, so that the transformation was flawless.
Well:
  1. Why would he need to "improvise", as Veranke put it, in that case? [Note that the following scene with Tigra is apparently intended to signify that the transition from one Skrull Pym to the next was *not* flawless]
  2. The Skrull Pym who got killed by "Dugan" & co was implied not to be the first one to have Gone Rogue ("How many Hank Pyms are we going to have to switch out?" doesn't really make sense if the Pym with Tigra was only the second Skrull Pym.)
  3. Has it been established yet that they can give the memories of the dead to replacements? [I know Elektra & Dugan both looked dead - but hell, Dugan looked just as dead (and was originally intended to be so) in Wolverine: Origins #10]. If Dan Slott's word can be trusted, at least one of the replaced is going to be back post-SI...
  4. How nuts would you have to be to not only include a man who's been driving the Skrulls linked to him to rebellion in the mix (given that he was apparently essential, that could be called a calculated risk), but also incorporate at *least* one skrull who's already gone dolally from that link? The poor re-replacement skrull wouldn't last a week! :)
EDIT: And looking about the internet, I find someone saying that the latest Skrull Pym calls himself Criti Noll in Avengers: The Initiative #14. Can anyone who reads that book confirm?

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