Creating character listings due to irreconcilable appearance

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wolframbane
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Creating character listings due to irreconcilable appearance

Post by wolframbane » Thu Oct 16, 2008 1:01 am

I was curious as to what official MCP policy is regarding character appearances during a period when we know it would otherwise be impossible to reconcile their appearance. Do we place the character irregardless (perhaps with a note), do we consider them a separate but distinctly separate character, do we ignore the placement? A notable example would be Captain America and Bucky who appeared all the way until the early 1950s, but then appeared in 1963 in Avengers #4, claiming that he was frozen since 1945, which was ultimately explained that the post-war Cap and Bucky were actually three different sets of people.

Other examples include:
1/ Brunnhilde the Valkyrie, who was in suspended animation for centuries until released in Defenders #109, but she appeared in Asgard during the 1960s in Marvel: The Lost Generation #5.
2/ Fin Fang Foom was in suspended animation for centuries in Strange Tales #89 in China, but appeared in Hulk vs Fin Fang Foom, where he states that he was trapped in the antarctic for decades.
3/ Black Widow (Claire Voyant) appeared postwar in Marvel Knights: Spider-Man #9 (and possibly mentioned as "a little old widow named Claire" in Marvel Tarot), but has reappeared in Twelve #1.
4/ Frankenstein's Monster was frozen until recently years in Frankenstein's Monster #12, but may have appeared in Marvel: The Lost Generation #5 as "Frank" (or not).

Enda80
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Re: Creating character listings due to irreconcilable appearance

Post by Enda80 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 2:39 am

1/ Brunnhilde the Valkyrie, who was in suspended animation for centuries until released in Defenders #109, but she appeared in Asgard during the 1960s in Marvel: The Lost Generation #5.

The Enchantress obviously melded someone with Brunnhilde, as the Official Handbook noted that she had done over the centuries, in a similar manner to what occurred with Samantha Parrington.

2/ Fin Fang Foom was in suspended animation for centuries in Strange Tales #89 in China, but appeared in Hulk vs Fin Fang Foom, where he states that he was trapped in the antarctic for decades.

The Strange Tales#89 appearance came out in October 1961. Stories that appeared in those anthology series generally get thought as occurring in the pre-modern era (i.e. before emergence of the FF). The FF's emergence occurs at X-15 years ago. So possibly twenty years could have separated the emergence of Fin Fang Foom due to Chan Liuchow and that Antarctic appearance.

3/ Black Widow (Claire Voyant) appeared postwar in Marvel Knights: Spider-Man #9 (and possibly mentioned as "a little old widow named Claire" in Marvel Tarot), but has reappeared in Twelve #1.

Stumper

4/ Frankenstein's Monster was frozen until recently years in Frankenstein's Monster #12, but may have appeared in Marvel: The Lost Generation #5 as "Frank" (or not).

The hardcover Handbook entry seems to suggest that the Frankenstein's Monster reemerged in the absolute 1970's or before the modern era. Of crouse, MLG#5 takes place in the 1960's, so perhaps that does not help.

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Re: Creating character listings due to irreconcilable appearance

Post by loki » Thu Oct 16, 2008 7:14 am

Enda80 wrote:3/ Black Widow (Claire Voyant) appeared postwar in Marvel Knights: Spider-Man #9 (and possibly mentioned as "a little old widow named Claire" in Marvel Tarot), but has reappeared in Twelve #1.

Stumper
Until The Twelve finishes it's not possible to put a definitive answer to this - while unlikely, it wouldn't be impossible for Claire to be sent back in time to cover those appearances. Or, with her mystic background, she might have been "split" so that part of her got frozen while another aspect remained active. Or else Satan could have empowered someone with identical powers, or someone else could have adopted the costume without the hell-spawned background. Basically, there's just too many possibilities with a magical entity like her to be certain.
Enda80 wrote:4/ Frankenstein's Monster was frozen until recently years in Frankenstein's Monster #12, but may have appeared in Marvel: The Lost Generation #5 as "Frank" (or not).

The hardcover Handbook entry seems to suggest that the Frankenstein's Monster reemerged in the absolute 1970's or before the modern era. Of crouse, MLG#5 takes place in the 1960's, so perhaps that does not help.
The Frank in Lost Generation is "a" Frankenstein's Monster, but not necessarily the original. We know of several other Monster's made by members of the Frankenstein family, all of whom could legitimately be called "Frankenstein's Monster," and the concept has entered the public conscious via the novel so that even if his creator was not actually a Frankenstein, a similar construct could get called by the name.

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Re: Creating character listings due to irreconcilable appearance

Post by Enda80 » Thu Oct 16, 2008 6:46 pm

"2/ Fin Fang Foom was in suspended animation for centuries in Strange Tales #89 in China, but appeared in Hulk vs Fin Fang Foom, where he states that he was trapped in the antarctic for decades.

The Strange Tales#89 appearance came out in October 1961. Stories that appeared in those anthology series generally get thought as occurring in the pre-modern era (i.e. before emergence of the FF). The FF's emergence occurs at X-15 years ago. So possibly twenty years could have separated the emergence of Fin Fang Foom due to Chan Liuchow and that Antarctic appearance."

Could someone check Fin Fang Foom's hardcover entry? Does it address whether or not Chan Licuchow's first FFF encounter took place in an absolute 1961 or not?

http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/liuchowc.htm
Chan Liuchow does appear in the modern era in the Legion of the Night series.

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Re: Creating character listings due to irreconcilable appearance

Post by dimadick » Fri Oct 17, 2008 5:08 am

wolframbane wrote: 3/ Black Widow (Claire Voyant) appeared postwar in Marvel Knights: Spider-Man #9 (and possibly mentioned as "a little old widow named Claire" in Marvel Tarot), but has reappeared in Twelve #1.
Isn't the appearance in Marvel Knights just a minor flashback? Are we certain it takes place after World War II? The reference in Marvel Tarot is vague enough to be dismissed or could mean the storyline takes place after the revival of Claire.

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Re: Creating character listings due to irreconcilable appearance

Post by Enda80 » Sat Oct 18, 2008 10:44 am

The flashback in MKSM got narrated by the Scorpion, who asserted that the proliferation of criminals with special technology occurred as a result of a conspiracy amongst the wealthy to keep the prominent metahumans from using their abilities to challenge the economic power structures to demand social justice (pace Hugo Danner in Gladiator, early Superman stories where he harassed mine owners, slumlords, and so forth , and even to a degree Simon Templar/The Saint in the Sleepless Knight).

From Ronald Byrd:

(Page 14, Panel 1: Shot of people raising wine glasses in a toast, with the Empire State Building outside.)

Scorpion (voiceover): "Imagine it's nineteen forty-five [emphasis added] and you're one of the richest men on the planet. You got everything you ever wanted. Girls, money, power, you're living the American dream and all the little worker-bees are working round the clock to keep you there."

(Page 14, Panel 2: Shot of the Human Torch, Captain America (in his neckless mask and with his triangular shield), and the Sub-Mariner looking heroic.)

Scorpion (voiceover): "Then these guys in masks start showing up, righting wrongs and throwing their super-powers around. They say they're here to fight injustice and you know it's only a matter of time before they start looking at the books and seeing the way this world of yours REALLY operates."

(Page 14, Panel 3: Shot of the Angel, the Black Widow, the Falcon, and the Challenger rushing two gangsters, who are firing upon them.)

(Of course, the Human Torch and Namor had become public knowledge as early as 1939, while Night Raven had battled gangsters as early as 1929 at least. However, presumably the Nazis, Fascists, and State Shinto Militarists occupied the attention of the more prominent metahumans enough that the "robber barons" and "carpetbaggers" did not start to worry until 1945.)

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Re: Creating character listings due to irreconcilable appearance

Post by dimadick » Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:20 pm

Enda80 wrote: Scorpion (voiceover): "Imagine it's nineteen forty-five [emphasis added] and you're one of the richest men on the planet. You got everything you ever wanted. Girls, money, power, you're living the American dream and all the little worker-bees are working round the clock to keep you there."

(Page 14, Panel 2: Shot of the Human Torch, Captain America (in his neckless mask and with his triangular shield), and the Sub-Mariner looking heroic.)

Scorpion (voiceover): "Then these guys in masks start showing up, righting wrongs and throwing their super-powers around. They say they're here to fight injustice and you know it's only a matter of time before they start looking at the books and seeing the way this world of yours REALLY operates."

(Page 14, Panel 3: Shot of the Angel, the Black Widow, the Falcon, and the Challenger rushing two gangsters, who are firing upon them.)

(Of course, the Human Torch and Namor had become public knowledge as early as 1939, while Night Raven had battled gangsters as early as 1929 at least. However, presumably the Nazis, Fascists, and State Shinto Militarists occupied the attention of the more prominent metahumans enough that the "robber barons" and "carpetbaggers" did not start to worry until 1945.)
Which means that we have a year, "1945", but not a month. World War II ended in August. The flashback could have occurred early in the year, prior to the death of Adolf Hitler in April. Earlier than the Black Widow going to Europe for her last mission. How about placing this between her cameo in "Marvels" and her role in "The Twelve"?

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Re: Creating character listings due to irreconcilable appearance

Post by wolframbane » Sun Oct 19, 2008 3:51 am

dimadick wrote:Which means that we have a year, "1945", but not a month. World War II ended in August. The flashback could have occurred early in the year, prior to the death of Adolf Hitler in April. Earlier than the Black Widow going to Europe for her last mission. How about placing this between her cameo in "Marvels" and her role in "The Twelve"?
This is a good idea. I would suggest the following placement for placement for the Black Widow, Angel, Challenger and Falcon:

ANGEL/THOMAS HALLOWAY
MARVEL COMICS 1/2
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 2/2
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 3/2
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 4/2
MARVEL MYSTERY COMICS 5/2
MARVELS 1
HUMAN TORCH 5A/3
HUMAN TORCH 5B
SUB-MARINER COMICS 3/2
SUB-MARINER COMICS 4/3
*M/K:SM 9 (14:3)-FB
*TWELVE 1
CV 1-FB


BLACK WIDOW/CLAIRE VOYANT
*TWELVE 8-FB
MYSTIC COMICS 4/5
MYSTIC COMICS 5/5
MYSTIC COMICS 7/3
USA COMICS 5/2
MARVELS 1
ALL SELECT COMICS 1/5
*M/K:SM 9 (14:3)-FB
*TWELVE 1
...

*CHALLENGER/BILL WARING
*DARING MYSTERY COMICS 7/8
*MYSTIC COMICS 6/5
*MYSTIC COMICS 7/4
*MYSTIC COMICS 8/7
*M/PREM 29
*MYSTIC COMICS 9/8
*MYSTIC COMICS 10/7
*M/K:SM 9 (14:3)-FB
*S-H3 11
*A:INITIATIVE 12

*FALCON/CARL BURGESS
*DARING MYSTERY COMICS 5/9
*HUMAN TORCH COMICS 2/3
*M/K:SM 9 (14:3)-FB

Note also that Black Widow and Challenger are set to appear in Avengers/Invaders.

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Re: Creating character listings due to irreconcilable appearance

Post by wolframbane » Thu Nov 20, 2008 12:56 am

The new OHOTMUAZ Hardcover Vol 1 slightly revised the postwar appearances of Black Widow, Angel, Challenger and Falcon from being postwar to being "late in the war," so having them occur before TWELVE 1 is accommodated. They also make mention of the elderly Claire, although there is no known connection between the two.

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