Iron Man, Spider-man, Thunderbolts, and Secret Invasion

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Iron Man, Spider-man, Thunderbolts, and Secret Invasion

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sun Nov 23, 2008 2:28 pm

A comment by Somebody in another thread got me finally thinking about Secret Invasion's placement relative to a bunch of other stories.
IIM's first arc is pre-SI, as Matt Fraction's confirmed elsewhere
So, does this first arc of INVINCBLE IRON MAN include issue #7, which occurs a "week" after issue #6 and serves as an epilog to that arc? My guess is that it does, and IIM 7 is supposed to occur before SECRET INVASION.

Now, Spider-Man appears in IIM 7, and because Peter works for Front Line in that issue, it has to occur after ASM 573. So ASM 573 must occur before SECRET INVASION.

Now, the Thunderbolts appear in ASM 568-573, so their appearance in that arc must occur before their SECRET INVASION appearances, including TB 122-125. In TB 122 (1-8), Osborn decides to postpone Bullseye's "triumphant return," but in ASM 568, Bullseye is among the T-Bolts sent to New York in an assignment related to a public ceremony involving Osborn. This suggests to me that ASM 568 occurs after TB 122 (1-8). Fortunately, a span of "several days" separates pages 8 and 9 of TB 122. So would it make sense to place ASM 568-573 between pages 8 and 9 of TB 122, which still puts ASM 573 before SECRET INVASION? The Thunderbolts' appearance in that ASM arc takes 4 or 5 days.

During the Invasion, Osborn is seen in a tangentally related appearance in DP4 3, then TB 126 has to occur right after the Invasion, since Swordsman conducts his his "sister's" funeral in that issue, following her death in TB 124.

Okay, how about the Thunderbolts' appearance in the current MOON KNIGHT arc -- MK5 22-25? In MK5 24, Osborn prepares to send Bullseye to kill Moon Knight, and I assume we'll see that battle in MK5 25. It seems to make sense to put MK5 23-25 after that aforementioned postponement of setting Bullseye free in TB 122 (1-8). Furthermore, MK5 23-25 make sense just after SECRET INVASION but before TB 126, since it is mentioned in MK5 24 that Osborn is threatening to bring SHIELD before the "Commission." I'm not sure if the reference isn't to the Senate Oversight Committee on Superhuman Activities and Osborn's cause is Stark's presumed desertion of the battlefield in SECRET INVASION. Osborn does try to get the Senate committee to investigate SHIELD, the CSA, etc. in TB 126. And there are other plot developments that suggest that TB 126 needs to be placed after everything else.

The Thunderbolts' appearance in MK5 23-25 occurs over a two-day (so far) time frame, little enough to squeeze it between the Invasion and the funeral scene in TB 126. The T-Bolts also appear in MK5 22, but that issue occurs "two weeks" before MK5 23, and I'd be inclined to place that before SECRET INVASION.

The one other recent appearance of the T-Bolts was in AVENGERS/INVADERS #1, which I've assumed to be pre-Invasion and am inclined to put before TB 122 (1-8); Bullseye is not in A/INV 1. Spidey's appearance in A/INV relative to issues of ASM seems flexible, but given the T-Bolts notes above, it'd be sometime before ASM 568. I'd imagine Stark's appearance in A/INV would be before that first story arc in INVINCIBLE IRON MAN, which takes three weeks to unfold. See how things circle back around?

So this is what I end up with for chronology:

A/INV 1
IIM 1-6 -- 3 weeks to occur
TB 122 (1-8)
ASM 568-573 -- 4 or 5 days to occur
IIM 7 -- a week after IIM 6
TB 122 (9-) through TB 125 -- several days after TB 122 (1-8); Secret Invasion
DP4 3 -- Invasion-related
MK5 23-25 -- 2 days to occur; 2 weeks after MK5 22
TB 126 -- shortly after Invasion

The pesky part is where to put MK5 22, which occurs the day after MK5 21 (14-22), in which Stark is told the CSA is taking over the hunt for Moon Knight from SHIELD. Given the passage of time above, it would have to be after IIM 6 and likely after IIM 7. Perhaps the destruction at Stark Industries in the first arc of INVINCIBLE was the final straw that convinced the government that Stark wasn't going to be able to concentrate on the Spector hunt? And the reason two weeks separates MK5 22 and 23? Well, that pesky Secret Invasion would have potsponed the T-Bolts' new Spector mission.

Does this all make sense, or am I overlooking other considerations, perhaps from other comics?
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Re: Iron Man, Spider-man, Thunderbolts, and Secret Invasion

Post by J. Daniels » Sun Nov 23, 2008 6:44 pm

You forgot about SECRET INVASION: AMAZING SPIDER-MAN.

This mini, set during the start of SECRET INVASION, has to happen in the middle of "New Ways to Die". Osborn's endorsement of Crowne is referenced (so it's after ASM 569), and Harry & Lily Hollister are still together (so it's before their break-up in ASM 573).
Not to throw a wrench into things, but Amazing Spider-Man Secret Invasion ends with the Peter, Harry, etc. in the Coffee Bean, which was destroyed in Amazing Spider-Man #572, meaning the Secret Invasion mini is either before New Ways To Die or that Secret Invasion is long after New Ways To Die.

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Re: Iron Man, Spider-man, Thunderbolts, and Secret Invasion

Post by Col_Fury » Mon Nov 24, 2008 2:50 am

Paul Bourcier wrote:The one other recent appearance of the T-Bolts was in AVENGERS/INVADERS #1, which I've assumed to be pre-Invasion
You've assumed correctly, as far as Quesada's statements in interviews go.(he's said it's pre-Invasion, and of course I can't find a link at the moment)

Also, welcome to the boards, J. Daniels!
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Re: Iron Man, Spider-man, Thunderbolts, and Secret Invasion

Post by JD » Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:58 am

By the way, the message J. Daniels quoted was from me. I deleted it after rereading ASM 573 and noticed Harry and Lily didn't really break up.

On the other hand, the Coffee Bean IS a problem. It's intact at the end of SI:ASM 3, "a few days" after SI. It's destroyed in ASM 572, and has not been shown in ASM proper ever since. It does appear in ASM@ 35 (looking perfectly fine), though, and that's explicitely post-SI (SI:ASM 3 concludes by "Jackpot's story continues in ASM@ 35",
Spoiler:
and that's not event counting the fact that Jackpot DIES in ASM@ 35
).

The only way I think this can work is to push ASM@ 35 as far in the future as possible, to allow enough time for Harry to rebuild the Coffee Bean (and let's hope he does).

And all of this puts SI in a very tight spot for Spider-Man, Osborn & cie : somewhere between ASM 569 (Osborn's endorsement of Crowne is still news) and ASM 572 (Coffee Bean destroyed). Well, that or after the Bean's eventual reconstruction, but we don't know if and when that will happen, so it could be awkward.

Thankfully, SI happens in a very small timeframe (all in one day so far, right ?), so it could probably fit.
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Re: Iron Man, Spider-man, Thunderbolts, and Secret Invasion

Post by Paul Bourcier » Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:00 am

JD wrote:
On the other hand, the Coffee Bean IS a problem. It's intact at the end of SI:ASM 3, "a few days" after SI. It's destroyed in ASM 572, and has not been shown in ASM proper ever since.
Hmm, I hadn't considered that detail. I don't think we see major structural damage to the Coffee Bean, just windows, doors, and furnishings destroyed. If ASM 572 occurs just days before Secret Invasion as I suggest, and the end of SECINV:ASM 3 occurs "several days" Secret Invasion, that would be enough time to get the damages fixed?

JD wrote:
Thankfully, SI happens in a very small timeframe (all in one day so far, right ?), so it could probably fit.
Well, a few days, but different tie-ins seem to have conflicting evidence about this. I'll submit a detailed chronology once Invasion is wrapped up.
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Re: Iron Man, Spider-man, Thunderbolts, and Secret Invasion

Post by Somebody » Mon Nov 24, 2008 11:38 am

Why not just shunt New Ways to Fry back before TB 110? TB 110-121 occur in a fairly compressed timeframe, after all, and are entirely self-contained.

*Declaration of Ignorance: hasn't read a Spider-book this year, for obvious reasons*

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Re: Iron Man, Spider-man, Thunderbolts, and Secret Invasion

Post by J. Daniels » Mon Nov 24, 2008 3:00 pm

I completely forgot about the Bean in Annual 35, so that at least helps a little. I don't remember any significant structural damage, but Harry is pretty upset in #573 when he tells norman that he "blew up" the Coffee Bean. It's definitely meant to be a big disaster, so its odd that they would include its reconstruction so soon after.

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Re: Iron Man, Spider-man, Thunderbolts, and Secret Invasion

Post by JD » Fri Dec 12, 2008 3:16 am

The Coffee Bean is back to normal in ASM 580.

It's acknowledged as a fill-in issue, so they could have messed up, but considering that (1) they got the post-NWD statu quo of Robbie working at Frontline right and (2) it's a one-panel cameo with no relevance to the plot (so the editors could easily have had it fixed), I doubt it.

We'll probably have more details next week, since the next arc is focused on Harry IIRC.

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