About The New Official Index

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

Moderators: Paul Bourcier, Kevin W., Col_Fury, Arthur, JephYork, Somebody

Jason Doty
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 5328
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:24 pm
Location: Milton, Florida

About The New Official Index

Post by Jason Doty » Thu Jan 08, 2009 9:00 pm

I've just purchased our reading assignment for the near future and it's pretty good. Looking through it, I'm making the assumption that "also" means that the issues occured at the same time as the bulk of the story. Just checking through the first issue's X-Men section thus far, I've noticed certain things did not make the cut:

X-Men: First Class Limited Series and Ongoing.
Emma Frost Ongoing (I believe the original X-Men appeared on TV in one issue.)
X-Men Origins: Jean Grey and Beast (Though I understand why the Beast Issue is not Included)
Angel: Revalations Limited Series.

Can anyone think of any others that did not make the cut? I'm not sure what Spider-Man and Iron Man series or issues are missing, but maybe we could just keep track here.

I'm very impressed with all the hard work put into it and glad the've even included some cross-overs. Anyone else keeping track?

JephYork
Director
Director
Posts: 4613
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:10 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

Re: About The New Official Index

Post by JephYork » Thu Jan 08, 2009 10:10 pm

Glad you liked it!
Emma Frost Ongoing
X-Men Origins: Jean Grey and Beast
Angel: Revalations Limited Series.
Did any of those issues have scenes that occured within the range of X-Men #1-52?

-Jeph!

User avatar
Col_Fury
Director
Director
Posts: 6308
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: Illinois
Contact:

Re: About The New Official Index

Post by Col_Fury » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:01 pm

Do you remember which issue of Emma Frost had the X-Men-on-TV cameo? Because a quick check with the Search shows the MCP doesn't have the X-Men appearing in any issue of the Emma Frost series.

Angel Revelations & X-Men Origins Beast both end sometime before Uncanny 1, but X-Men Origins Jean Grey takes place up to and after Uncanny 1...(the scene where Jean arrives at Xavier's wearing her fancy scarf was taken from Uncanny 1 at least)

I'm happy to see that both Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes & Iron Man: Enter the Mandarin were both in the Iron Man entries. :)
-Daron Jensen

Jason Doty
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 5328
Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 6:24 pm
Location: Milton, Florida

Re: About The New Official Index

Post by Jason Doty » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:17 pm

One issue of Emma Frost (I can't remember which one, maybe #6) had a the X-Men appearing on a TV screen in their after issue UX #39 uniforms, and because of her age (in High school), would put that appearance before her Hellfire Club work in the Deadly Genesis second stories. (So maybe to your question)

X-Men Origins: Jean Grey has no continuity glitches I see out right, and if I remember correctly, the part where she leaves the X-Men to go out on her own, would fit nicely when they are seen taking on Magneto at the end of Journey Into Mystery #109. The comic shows her at different stages during her life. (so I'm pretty sure)

X-Men Orgins: Beast is a whole lot harder to reconcile, because that out-right retcons his origin story. (Don't know if this will be addressed at all , but his origin started in UX 49)

Angel: Revalations will either be dealt with in the next issue of the Index or not. Angel's back-ups begin in UX #54?

wolframbane
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 925
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2005 2:34 am

Re: About The New Official Index

Post by wolframbane » Fri Jan 09, 2009 1:26 am

Placement for X-Men Origins: Jean Grey has been done here:
http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/vie ... 34&p=25442

Placement for Angel: Revelations has been done here:
http://chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/vie ... 94&p=25778

Placement for X-Men Origins: Beast is something of a conundrum. It seems to be a wholesale revision of his origin story from UX 49/2-53/2, very much like the Professor Xavier and the X-Men series was to the original X-Men vol 1 series. Unfortunately there seem to be too many discrepencies to adequately allow it XO:B to occur, such as in the original version the X-Men arrive and beat the Conquistador and his men, and in the new version Beast defeats them himself before the X-Men arrive.

DonCampbell
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 686
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:47 am
Location: island of Montreal, Quebec

Re: About The New Official Index

Post by DonCampbell » Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:15 pm

Okay, I have to say that I'm very impressed with how much detail was presented in this first issue. I think that if I ever tried to compile such a mass of information my brain would explode/meltdown. So, congratulations to all involved.

However, I do have a couple of questions. First, how much lead time is involved in producing each issue? After all, it must take a lot of time to check and double-check each bit of data for each of the issues covered by the index.

Second, the first issue covered 57 Spider-Man comics, 35 Tales of Suspense, and 50 X-Men issues. Will future issues of the index be likely to cover as many comics per issue? More? Or less?

Third, what criteria are used to determine which comics are covered? Is the Official Index going to cover ALL the issues of Amazing Spider-Man, Tales of Suspense and X-Men before moving onto other titles? Or will all comics in a particular time period (like, say, 1963 through 1973) be catalogued first before comics in later time periods are covered?

Lastly, I noticed that Adventures of Captain America was listed in the notes section of the Tales of Suspense #63. Wasn't that a mini-series that was retroactively declared non-canon/out-of-continuity? If so, why is it listed?

Don Campbell

Hazanko
Minion
Minion
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:05 pm

Re: About The New Official Index

Post by Hazanko » Fri Jan 09, 2009 4:24 pm

I was hoping to see Marvel's opinion on Peter Parker: Spider-Man Annual '01, but couldn't find it in here. I'm also unsure why IM: ETM 3-6 aren't listed.

Does Spider-Man: With Great Power's non-appearance here mean that it isn't considered canon? These MK books always confuse me.

Other than the above questions, the book is a fascinating read. Cheers to all involved. :)

SeanCurtin
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 644
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2004 2:54 am
Location: Holland, Massachusetts
Contact:

Re: About The New Official Index

Post by SeanCurtin » Fri Jan 09, 2009 9:08 pm

DonCampbell wrote:Lastly, I noticed that Adventures of Captain America was listed in the notes section of the Tales of Suspense #63. Wasn't that a mini-series that was retroactively declared non-canon/out-of-continuity? If so, why is it listed?
The series was referenced in an issue of Captain America a few years ago, when the Red Skull mentioned Cindy Glass by name. The Adventures of Captain America might fall into the same continuity status as Daredevil: The Man Without Fear, where the events portrayed in the series occurred, but couldn't have occurred precisely as written.

templedog1972
Hero
Hero
Posts: 66
Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: About The New Official Index

Post by templedog1972 » Sat Jan 10, 2009 1:44 am

I am pretty sure the X-men appeared in Emma Frost #6. I place it in my X-Men Chrononlogy between UXM #52 And UXM #53.

User avatar
Somebody
Director
Director
Posts: 3035
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:48 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: About The New Official Index

Post by Somebody » Sat Jan 10, 2009 3:00 am

Hazanko wrote:I'm also unsure why IM: ETM 3-6 aren't listed.
They are (although the Index calls it IM:EM) - Temugin is listed as BTS in TOS 52 "per IM:EM #3", amd TOS 54-55 are both said to have been "retold with new details in IM:EM #4-6"

DonCampbell
Cosmic Entity
Cosmic Entity
Posts: 686
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 8:47 am
Location: island of Montreal, Quebec

Re: About The New Official Index

Post by DonCampbell » Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:56 am

SeanCurtin wrote:
DonCampbell wrote:Lastly, I noticed that Adventures of Captain America was listed in the notes section of the Tales of Suspense #63. Wasn't that a mini-series that was retroactively declared non-canon/out-of-continuity? If so, why is it listed?
The series was referenced in an issue of Captain America a few years ago, when the Red Skull mentioned Cindy Glass by name. The Adventures of Captain America might fall into the same continuity status as Daredevil: The Man Without Fear, where the events portrayed in the series occurred, but couldn't have occurred precisely as written.
Now that you mention it, I actually recall reading that issue and thinking to myself, "AARRGGHH!! This idiot writer has referenced an out-of-continuity story!!" Okay, maybe that wasn't my EXACT thought but it was in that spirit. I remember that I was surprised because Robert Kirkman had (I think) a reputation for being continuity-conscious. Well, we can only hope that this "real" Cindy Glass and the circumstances under which she died were VERY different from what appeared in The Adventures of Captain America since that mini-series REALLY messed with Captain America's origin story. Fabian Nicieza was supposedly "fleshing out the bare bones" of Cap's origin but what he actually wrote was a major skeletal alteration, and that was the reason that it was later declared non-canon.

Don Campbell

Hazanko
Minion
Minion
Posts: 16
Joined: Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:05 pm

Re: About The New Official Index

Post by Hazanko » Sat Jan 10, 2009 10:58 pm

Somebody wrote:
Hazanko wrote:I'm also unsure why IM: ETM 3-6 aren't listed.
They are (although the Index calls it IM:EM) - Temugin is listed as BTS in TOS 52 "per IM:EM #3", amd TOS 54-55 are both said to have been "retold with new details in IM:EM #4-6"
Wow, no idea how I missed that, thanks.

loki
Comic Pro
Comic Pro
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 4:37 pm

Re: About The New Official Index

Post by loki » Mon Jan 12, 2009 5:52 pm

Jason Doty wrote:I've just purchased our reading assignment for the near future and it's pretty good.
To echo Jeph, thanks!
Jason Doty wrote:Looking through it, I'm making the assumption that "also" means that the issues occured at the same time as the bulk of the story.
Assuming it has been used as it is meant to be, also should be when the character appears in another issue between panels of his appearance in this issue. eg, while experiencing the events depicted in this issue, he also shows up in another title. During would mean another issue occurs on either side of his appearance here. eg, another issue entirely encompasses the events shown here, so that they happen during the events of the other issue
Jason Doty wrote:Just checking through the first issue's X-Men section thus far, I've noticed certain things did not make the cut:

X-Men: First Class Limited Series and Ongoing.
There is nothing in First Class which rules it out as potentially being in 616 continuity. However, at the moment there is no definitive evidence to say it definitely is 616 continuity either. As such, the decision has been taken not to reference FC for the time being.

So basically, don't take it to mean too much that it isn't referenced. If and when we get confirmation (by way of another, non-FC title back-referencing FC), then we will put a revision note in a later issue to cover how it all fits together.
Jason Doty wrote:Emma Frost Ongoing (I believe the original X-Men appeared on TV in one issue.)
X-Men Origins: Jean Grey and Beast (Though I understand why the Beast Issue is not Included)
Angel: Revalations Limited Series.
I'm waiting for confirmation, but I believe the original X-Men's TV appearance not being mentioned may be an accidental ommission. XO: Jean Grey is a mistake on our part; it should have been included, and we'll be printing errata in an upcoming issue to correct that. Annoying that it happened, especially in the first issue, but thanks for spotting it. I'm checking what the deal is for XO: Beast. Angel: Revelations is in continuity, and is referenced in the issues covering his origin back-up story (which will be in Index #2).
Jason Doty wrote:I'm very impressed with all the hard work put into it and glad the've even included some cross-overs.
Again thanks, glad you like it. :)
Don Campbell wrote: Okay, I have to say that I'm very impressed with how much detail was presented in this first issue. I think that if I ever tried to compile such a mass of information my brain would explode/meltdown. So, congratulations to all involved.
Thanks, much appreciated.
Don Campbell wrote:However, I do have a couple of questions. First, how much lead time is involved in producing each issue? After all, it must take a lot of time to check and double-check each bit of data for each of the issues covered by the index.
At the moment we've not got a huge lead in time. We're proofing 2 for the printers now and 3 is due to be handed in very shortly. We are working on trying to get a bit further ahead of ourselves though.
Don Campbell wrote:Second, the first issue covered 57 Spider-Man comics, 35 Tales of Suspense, and 50 X-Men issues. Will future issues of the index be likely to cover as many comics per issue? More? Or less?
It's going to vary. On average we are looking at 3 entries a page, but some comics just need more than that. Titles like Tales of Suspense take up more space, because you have multiple stories in a single issue, and it's 3 entries per page, not issues per page. But, assuming we sell well enough to keep going, I could see the Index finishing with these initial three titles before the end of the year, and moving on to covering other titles.
Don Campbell wrote:Third, what criteria are used to determine which comics are covered? Is the Official Index going to cover ALL the issues of Amazing Spider-Man, Tales of Suspense and X-Men before moving onto other titles? Or will all comics in a particular time period (like, say, 1963 through 1973) be catalogued first before comics in later time periods are covered?
The former, pretty much, though there may be the odd exception. Annuals obviously fit in their respective slots between regular issues, but we will include Giant Size issues that way as well.
Don Campbell wrote:Lastly, I noticed that Adventures of Captain America was listed in the notes section of the Tales of Suspense #63. Wasn't that a mini-series that was retroactively declared non-canon/out-of-continuity? If so, why is it listed?
As Sean Curtin noted, back referencing has confirmed that Adventures of CA is in continuity, although not everything necessarily occured exactly as depicted.

comixfan
Comic Pro
Comic Pro
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat May 28, 2005 7:17 am
Location: Adelaide, Australia
Contact:

Re: About The New Official Index

Post by comixfan » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:22 pm

DonCampbell wrote:Okay, I have to say that I'm very impressed with how much detail was presented in this first issue. I think that if I ever tried to compile such a mass of information my brain would explode/meltdown. So, congratulations to all involved.
I think mine did ;)

Glad you guys liked it. Talk about a lot of work! Issue #1 was absolutely exhausting to compile, but am pleased with the end result :)

rider
Supporting Character
Supporting Character
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:09 pm

Re: About The New Official Index

Post by rider » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:12 pm

According to the OFFICIAL Handbook of the Marvel Universe, X-Men First Class is continuity. Is their word not official enough to declare something as canon?

Locked