Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by GodRob » Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:02 am

It seems to be the writers intent that this flashback occurs soon after Shaw takes over the Inner Circle, sometime between UX99 and UX129. Shaws dialogue to Namor supports this "Recently, I have personally usurped the command structure of the Inner Circle and am remaking it in my own image..."

Other than Selene, does this timeframe work for all other characters involved? (Sebastian Shaw, Emma Frost, Namor, Norman Osborn, Tony Stark, Donald Pierce).

Dimadiks justification of Norman Osborn certainly works for me. Shaw, Frost, and Pierce shouldn't be a problem either (Probably prior to Ms Marvel 22). I'm not familiar with what Namor and Tony were doing from June '76 to January '80. The previous post helps, but doesn't give me enough clues for placement.

If Selene is the only problem, I'll give a shot at justifying her appearance during that time. What if Selene really was an original member of the Inner Circle. She played around with them for a while, grew bored, and left soon before UX129, erasing everyones memories. (She's been known to alter memories in the past and in this very issue.) Possibly, she was scared away by the upcoming arrival of Dark Phoenix. Emmas memories return after her Phoenix coma (stated in the annual), but she's in a Mastermind coma when Selene returns to (re)join the club. Of course, Emma doesn't mention this later because she's got to keep her secrets.

A few observations on Uncanny X-Men Annual 2: Selene is never refered to as the Black Queen. Selene only uses telepathy, none of her other powers. She doesn't even speak on panel. Tony and Namor do not meet in the issue (Tony wanders off with a waitress, three panels later Namor shows up.)

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by dimadick » Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:25 am

Jason Doty wrote:What year did Spider-Man kill the Green Goblin before he was resurected
1973.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by dimadick » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:23 am

GodRob wrote:It seems to be the writers intent that this flashback occurs soon after Shaw takes over the Inner Circle, sometime between UX99 and UX129. Shaws dialogue to Namor supports this "Recently, I have personally usurped the command structure of the Inner Circle and am remaking it in my own image..."

Other than Selene, does this timeframe work for all other characters involved? (Sebastian Shaw, Emma Frost, Namor, Norman Osborn, Tony Stark, Donald Pierce).
That is the problem.
*For Sebastian it fits perfectly. I already listed his appearances between the coup and :X-Men" vol. 1 #131, none of which present major contradictions.
*Between the Hellfire Club coup and Uncanny X-Men #129, Frost only appears in "Classic X-Men" #34 (June, 1989) which explores how she views the Club's dress code and her growing fascination with power games and "X-Men Unlimited" vol. 2 #6 (February, 2005) which has Mastermind and Shaw behaving as "slime-dogs" in her opinion
*I already listed and summarized all appearances of Namor between April, 1976 and December, 1980 except "Incredible Hulk" vol. 2 #250. There are some periods where he is simply unavailable for crossovers but there are plenty of periods of relative inactivity for him and visits to New York on a regular basis.
*Norman Osborn is mainly active in Europe at the time but an appearance alongside the Hellfire Club is not out of the question.
*Nothing major going on with Stark until "Iron Man" vol. 1 #173 (August, 1983). The period you suggest is equivalent to the publication dates of "Iron Man" vol. 1 #85 (April, 1976) to #130 (January, 1980). According to the list "The Many Loves of Tony Stark" , Stark's main love interests at this point were Madame Masque (#91-116, October, 1976 -November, 1978) and Bethany Cabe (#117-153, December, 1978 - December, 1981). His previous relationship to Marianne Rodgers was quite unstable (as her psychic powers turned her insane), explaining her infrequent appearances. Dates with waitresses would assume he was single at the time.
*Pierce previously only appeared in "X-Men:Hellfire Club" #4 (April, 2000) which covers him as as part of a circle (not the Inner Circle ... yet) forming around Shaw soon after the latter joined the Club (other members of the same private circle were Chantel, Leland, Frost and Tessa) and "Marvel Super-Heroes" vol. 3 #11 (October, 1992) which covers the arms deal in Honk Kong and a brief battle between Pierce and Ms. Marvel. The main problem lies in his title. Pierce has been variously identified as White King and White Bishop. If the former is accurate the title would not be available to be offered to Namor. If the latter is accurate the title would be vacant to 1987.

Problem is that none of these characters were supposed to have met Selene at this point. To be honest I am not even sure Pierce and Selene have ever met on panel in any of their appearances to date. Even when supposedly members of the same Inner Circle.
GodRob wrote:If Selene is the only problem, I'll give a shot at justifying her appearance during that time. What if Selene really was an original member of the Inner Circle. She played around with them for a while, grew bored, and left soon before UX129, erasing everyones memories. (She's been known to alter memories in the past and in this very issue.) Possibly, she was scared away by the upcoming arrival of Dark Phoenix. Emmas memories return after her Phoenix coma (stated in the annual), but she's in a Mastermind coma when Selene returns to (re)join the club. Of course, Emma doesn't mention this later because she's got to keep her secrets.
Could work if placed before her first published appearance in "New Mutants" vol. 1 #9 (November, 1983). At the time she was married to Marcus Domitius Gallio in Nova Roma but we could rationalize she had left her ball-and-chain behind for a while. Also rationalizing Selene could leave Nova Roma at will and return whenever she felt like it. Quite a retconn but if this is the only way to place this story, so be it.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by GodRob » Sun Jan 25, 2009 8:43 am

dimadick wrote:Could work if placed before her first published appearance in "New Mutants" vol. 1 #9 (November, 1983). At the time she was married to Marcus Domitius Gallio in Nova Roma but we could rationalize she had left her ball-and-chain behind for a while. Also rationalizing Selene could leave Nova Roma at will and return whenever she felt like it. Quite a retconn but if this is the only way to place this story, so be it.
Yes, the flashback would definitely occur before her first published appearance. I was under the impression that all of the Nova Roma "history" was a recent creation by Selene at the time of New Mutants 9, although we didn't find that out until years later. I seem to recall a more recent story with Magma rejecting her Alison Crestmere identity and maintaining that Nova Roma was real, but I'm not sure what issue that occured in. Possibly New Mutants vol 2? It's been retconned and possibly un/re retconned and I don't have the issues handy right now.

As for it being the only way to place the story, I'm sure there are other solutions. This was just one I proposed that I felt should have the least amount of impact on the other characters. I not happy with it myself.

I'm not sure when the titles were actually assigned to each memeber, but the Official Marvel Index to the X-Men vol. 2 #3 (1994) has Pierce listed as the White Bishop in his initial appearances during the Dark Phoenix saga 128-134, bts for most of those issues. He was next in Marvel Graphic Novel #4 having left the club and kidnapping Tessa. I think he named himself the White King at some point (as late as his appearances in Cable?), but not as early as I'm proposing the flashback be placed.

If we were to use Tony Starks girlfriends as a guide, then this would have to occur between Iron man 85 & 90, Apr '76 to Sept '76, correct? He goes way beyong simple flirting, although the last waitress he is chasing under Selene's telepathic suggestion.

Edit: How does this work for Namor? Your previous post mentions him wearing a lifepreserving suit. Does that match the outfit he's wearing in this issue?

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by Michael » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:27 am

dimadick wrote:
Michael wrote:While considering where this Annual goes, one should consider Tony's and Namor's chronologies around this time period:
In Iron Man#182 (May 1984) Tony stops drinking. Unfortunately, Stane still has almost all of Tony's fortune. Tony finally manages to get his fortune back in Iron Man#203 (February 1986). It would seem that Tony attending the Club takes place after got his fortune back.
Lets see. Stark quits being Iron Man in "Iron Man" vol. 1 #170 (May, 1983). He loses Stark International to Obadiah Stane in #173 (August, 1983). His downward spiral to becoming a homeless alcoholic ends with #182 (May, 1984). In #184 (July, 1984), Stark co-founds Circuits Maximus with Clytemnestra and Edwin Morley in California. In #191(February, 1985), Stark reclaims the Iron Man identity from James Rhodes. In #200 (November, 1985) Stane dies. In #214 (January, 1987), Stark Enterprises is founded.

Any problem with the new CEO of Stark Enterprises active by "New Mutants" vol. 1 #51 (May, 1987)?
No, but we have the problem that Namor loses the throne of Atlantis in Prince Namor the Sub-Mariner 4 (December 1984). So if Namor was king of Atlantis and Tony was rich when this story takes place, Sub-Mariner 4 would have to take place after Iron Man 203, and I don't think that can be done.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by Michael » Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:35 am

Jason Doty wrote:I think to be able to get this to work for all sides, we must consider this is not the same Selene and proceed from there. I thought Selene was a sort of energy vampire, rather than a telepath, anyway. Since, Emma did'nt know about the Sentinal's and she clearly does by UX 151-152, but the appearance must be after Shaw is attacked and his lover killed by them in the Classic X-Men backup. I'm thinking these flashbacks have to occur around the UX 99 era. What year did Spider-Man kill the Green Goblin before he was resurected, In conparison to the X-Men, and Tony could be there anytime acting the playboy. How about Namor at this time? We could just call her another Black Queen/Selene.
Selene is a sorceress. A sorceress can do anything the writer wants.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by Michael » Sun Jan 25, 2009 2:05 pm

GodRob wrote:
dimadick wrote:Could work if placed before her first published appearance in "New Mutants" vol. 1 #9 (November, 1983). At the time she was married to Marcus Domitius Gallio in Nova Roma but we could rationalize she had left her ball-and-chain behind for a while. Also rationalizing Selene could leave Nova Roma at will and return whenever she felt like it. Quite a retconn but if this is the only way to place this story, so be it.
Yes, the flashback would definitely occur before her first published appearance. I was under the impression that all of the Nova Roma "history" was a recent creation by Selene at the time of New Mutants 9, although we didn't find that out until years later. I seem to recall a more recent story with Magma rejecting her Alison Crestmere identity and maintaining that Nova Roma was real, but I'm not sure what issue that occured in. Possibly New Mutants vol 2? It's been retconned and possibly un/re retconned and I don't have the issues handy right now.

As for it being the only way to place the story, I'm sure there are other solutions. This was just one I proposed that I felt should have the least amount of impact on the other characters. I not happy with it myself.
The problem I have with that solution is that the dialogue in Uncanny X-Men 183-184 seems to imply that Selene hasn't left South America in centuries and this is her first time visiting New York.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by GodRob » Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:31 pm

The problem I have with that solution is that the dialogue in Uncanny X-Men 183-184 seems to imply that Selene hasn't left South America in centuries and this is her first time visiting New York.
Good points. Maybe she believes her delusions are real. Can an immortal mutant vampire sorceress have sanity issues? Placing new stories in someones past chronology can sometimes be inconsistent with earlier dialogue written in the past but now occuring in the future of the story in question. :hmmm:

One thing that bugs me is Selenes character in the story. No dialogue, no powers other than telepathy. Maybe Jason's suggestion that this isn't the same Selene is a better choice. Either my suggestion or his would allow placement during the mid '70s when the Hellfire Clubs early history occurs.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by Somebody » Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:59 pm

GodRob wrote:One thing that bugs me is Selenes character in the story. No dialogue, no powers other than telepathy. Maybe Jason's suggestion that this isn't the same Selene is a better choice. Either my suggestion or his would allow placement during the mid '70s when the Hellfire Clubs early history occurs.
It almost seemed as if they got Tessa (Sage) and Selene mixed up. She's a telepath, was Shaw's subordinate at the Club, never talked much, and was around a hellavalot earlier.

The more I look at it, and into it, the more I want to say "the FB is unreliable. It can't possibly depict the events accurately, and so should be called non-canon." Same deal as the Loeb/Sale "Colour" series FBs.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by GodRob » Sun Jan 25, 2009 4:33 pm

Somebody wrote:
GodRob wrote:One thing that bugs me is Selenes character in the story. No dialogue, no powers other than telepathy. Maybe Jason's suggestion that this isn't the same Selene is a better choice. Either my suggestion or his would allow placement during the mid '70s when the Hellfire Clubs early history occurs.
It almost seemed as if they got Tessa (Sage) and Selene mixed up. She's a telepath, was Shaw's subordinate at the Club, never talked much, and was around a hellavalot earlier.

The more I look at it, and into it, the more I want to say "the FB is unreliable. It can't possibly depict the events accurately, and so should be called non-canon." Same deal as the Loeb/Sale "Colour" series FBs.
As part of Dark Reign, I have a feeling this storyline of Emma, Namor, and Osborn may be touched upon again in the near future. On the other hand, Osborn and Stark could have been shoe-horned in later just to make it "more" Dark Reign oriented without any future plans to follow up. Let's hope for the latter.

So, could Emma's memories be wrong? Maybe it was Tessa who "originally" appeared, but Emmas just got a short circuit from all of the comas she went through (3 at last count). Also, didn't Tessa keep her telepathy hidden until Shaw's reappearance in X-Man? I thought she just posed as a "human computer" while spying for Xavier during her initial hellfire club appearances?

What's Matt Fractions history of continuity problems? I haven't followed his writing that closely.

Other than Selene and Osborn, the other events depicted should work. Osborn can probably be justified as well. Declaring it non-canon seems kind of harsh so soon.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by JD » Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:13 pm

GodRob wrote:Emmas just got a short circuit from all of the comas she went through (3 at last count).
At least four, actually. There was another one in the mid-80s due to... Mastermind, I think (when he tried to make everyone think Madelyne Prior was Dark Phoenix). I remember scenes of her lying on some stone table in the Hellfire Club's basement.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by JephYork » Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:41 am

My goodness, you folks are writing essays in here.

I vote to place this story during the timeframe where Selene is Black Queen and Shaw is searching for a White King ... and just shoehorning/handwaving in the Osborn, Iron Man and Namor discrepancies.

They're all *technically available to appear* in that slot, even if the fine details don't add up. To me, that's paramount.

-Jeph!

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by dimadick » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:03 am

GodRob wrote:Yes, the flashback would definitely occur before her first published appearance. I was under the impression that all of the Nova Roma "history" was a recent creation by Selene at the time of New Mutants 9, although we didn't find that out until years later. I seem to recall a more recent story with Magma rejecting her Alison Crestmere identity and maintaining that Nova Roma was real, but I'm not sure what issue that occured in. Possibly New Mutants vol 2? It's been retconned and possibly un/re retconned and I don't have the issues handy right now.
The retconn by Fabian Nicieza negating Nova Roma's history and giving Magma the Allison Crestmere identity took place in "New Warriors" vol. 1 #31 (January, 1993). The information on the "real" identities of the Nova Romans was given by Empath. In "X-Treme X-Men" #46 (June, 2004), Amara regains her true memories and finds out the Crestmere identity was only an elaborate lie, someone unknown messing with her identity. Basically Chris Claremont restoring his Nova Roma stories to continuity and giving the finger to Fabian.
GodRob wrote:I'm not sure when the titles were actually assigned to each memeber, but the Official Marvel Index to the X-Men vol. 2 #3 (1994) has Pierce listed as the White Bishop in his initial appearances during the Dark Phoenix saga 128-134, bts for most of those issues. He was next in Marvel Graphic Novel #4 having left the club and kidnapping Tessa. I think he named himself the White King at some point (as late as his appearances in Cable?), but not as early as I'm proposing the flashback be placed.
For some reason the early appearances of Pierce do not clarify which rank he held. In "Uncanny X-Men" #245 (June, 1989), Tessa mentions Pierce as "the former White King" while investigating his escape from a holding facility Shaw had created for him in Kentucky. Yet the "Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe" gave him a Profile as "White Bishop". Both titles have been mentioned within various issues since the 1990s, though the Bishop one more frequently. By the way it is not the only title which which someone tried to establish after the fact. In "Classic X-Men" #34 (June, 1989), Ann Nocenti has Mastermind mentioned as "Black King" at the time of the Dark Phoenix saga. She apparently forgot that the title was already established for Shaw.
GodRob wrote:If we were to use Tony Starks girlfriends as a guide, then this would have to occur between Iron man 85 & 90, Apr '76 to Sept '76, correct? He goes way beyong simple flirting, although the last waitress he is chasing under Selene's telepathic suggestion.
Probably. He is definitely single in these issues.
GodRob wrote:Edit: How does this work for Namor? Your previous post mentions him wearing a lifepreserving suit. Does that match the outfit he's wearing in this issue?
Exposure to a nerve gas in "Sub-Mariner" #67 (November, 1973) cost Namor his ability to breathe air. Mr. Fantastic created a black (sometimes depicted as blue) costume which kept Namor hydrated when away from the sea, preventing him from suffocating. Dr. Doom disabled this costume in 1976 for blackmail reasons but later restored to Namor his ability to breathe. For a picture of this costume see: http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Image:SubmarinerV167.jpg

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by dimadick » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:18 am

Michael wrote:
Jason Doty wrote:I think to be able to get this to work for all sides, we must consider this is not the same Selene and proceed from there. I thought Selene was a sort of energy vampire, rather than a telepath, anyway. Since, Emma did'nt know about the Sentinal's and she clearly does by UX 151-152, but the appearance must be after Shaw is attacked and his lover killed by them in the Classic X-Men backup. I'm thinking these flashbacks have to occur around the UX 99 era. What year did Spider-Man kill the Green Goblin before he was resurected, In conparison to the X-Men, and Tony could be there anytime acting the playboy. How about Namor at this time? We could just call her another Black Queen/Selene.
Selene is a sorceress. A sorceress can do anything the writer wants.
According to "Uncanny X-Men" #189 (January, 1985), Selene can mess around with the perceptions of others. She caused Shaw and Tessa to not being able to see her while she was leaving the room, causes Phoenix/Rachel Summers to perceive Magma as Selene herself, somehow bonds both Phoenix and Magma to her will and later has a mental battle with both girls. While the mechanics of this ability were not explained it is consistent with telepathy.

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Re: Uncanny X-Men Annual #2

Post by gregorynbaker » Mon Jan 26, 2009 5:29 am

Given the art and characterization, my solution is simply to read "Selene" as "Tessa". This would not be the first time a character was called by the wrong name in a canonical comic. This seems to solve most of the other problems. As for Osborn's interactions, Tony could have been too drunk to remember and Namor might not care (did he ever meet Harry?)

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