Nathan P. Mahney wrote:I just got done with this yesterday. There is some interesting Dark Reign related stuff (which makes me a little more confident that Bendis isn't going to hi-jack Emma Frost) but the flashback has some major continuity issues.
Basically there's a Hellfire Club meeting where Sebastian Shaw tries to get Namor to join up as the White King. It's set shortly after Shaw's takeover of the Inner Circle, and there are two characters present that are problematic.
First lets take a look at Shaw's appearances prior to "X-Men" vol. 1 #131.
1)According to "Classic X-Men" #6 (February, 1987), Sebastian was still a new member of the Inner Circle during "X-Men vol. 1 #98 (April, 1976). He and Tessa were checking the progress of the Sentinels created by Steven Lang, planning to use them against the X-Men. Unaware that White King/Edward "Ned" Buckman was planning to use them against Shaw and his mutant friends.
2) Shaw is behind-the scenes in #98-99 (April-June, 1976). In "Classic X-Men" #7 (March, 1987), Lang reports to the Inner Circle that the X-Men are perfect subject for his experiments in isolating their genetic X-Factor and reproducing it. Shaw voices concern about only Banshee, Marvel Girl and Wolverine having been captured, (meaning that Colossus, Cyclops, Nightcrawler, Professor X and Storm are unaccounted for), but Buckman shuts him up. He reminds Shaw that he is only a probationary member. Shaw thinks that they will reproduce the X-Factor to create an army of super powered operatives. Buckman thinks that Lang will eliminate the mutant race.
3) In the second story of #7, the Hellfire Club organizes its annual gala, taking place between Christmas and New Year's Eve. Shaw attends the gala with his lover Lourdes Chantel. Chantel voices her suspicion of Buckman and his motivation. Buckman introduces them to White Queen/Paris Seville. He thanks Shaw for financing Project Armageddon. Chantel is still suspicious but Shaw has no idea is his friend or pretending to be one. He asks Tessa to look for an answer.
Shaw establishes mental contact with Emma Frost who is in a beach house near East Hampton. She is tending to Michael Rossi, the United States Airforce special operative which Lang attempted to kill in "X-Men" #96 (December, 1975). He is barely alive but his mind indicates that Project Armageddon is about eliminating mutants, not reproducing them. Shaw realizes Buckman was simply using him. Frost is then located and attacked by a Sentinel. Harold "Harry" Leland is by her side.
Shaw has Chantel teleport him, herself and Tessa to the beach house. Shaw starts to fight the Sentinel but is soon at a disadvantage. An exhausted Chantel tries to help him and is killed by the Sentinel. Leland is shocked into action and crashes the robot to the floor. Shaw attacks its most vulnerable spot, its head and finishes the battle.
At midnight, Buckman and Seville oversee a meeting of the Inner Circle, minus Shaw. Buckman draws a gun and kills Seville and various unnamed others. He is under mind control by Frost. Shaw break's Buckman's neck. With the Inner Circle dead, Shaw intends to form a new Inner Circle which will make sure the mutants will no longer be the victims. This bloody coup is supposed to be roughly concurrent with "X-Men" vol. 1 #100 (August, 1976).
4) In #110 (April, 1978), housekeeper Moira Kinross Mac Taggert expects a man from the telephone company to visit the Xavier mansion since the phones have not be working. The repairman who arrives is Warhawk, an assassin. He drugs her with a drug provided by his "master". He notes his "master" has a lot of questions concerning Xavier and his school, including why would a worlf-known expert in genetics and biophysics plays at being a housekeeper. His "master" contacts him telepathically. Said master claims having saved Warhawk for certain death and restored his sanity. In return he demands his services. Failure will result in swift, agonizing and final retribution. When contact ends, Warhawk curses his masters and swears to be free again someday. The master has been retconned to be Shaw using some telepath for communication.
5) In "Marvel Super-Heroes" vol. 3 #11(October, 1992), Shaw has Coelho, an arms merchant, killed in Hong Kong. The merchant was selling armaments to Hellfire Club's Honk Kong, receiving payment but not delivering them. The Weapons were then resold to a new version of the Brotherhood of Evil Mutants, including Avalanche, Destiny, Mystique and Pyro. Tessa figured what was going on and reported the betrayal to Shaw. All Brotherhood members mentioned were also in Honk Kong, as was Ms. Marvel tailing Mystique.
The events were supposed to closely follow "Ms. Marvel" vol. 1 #22 (February, 1979) and to precede "X-Men" vol. 1 #140 (December, 1980). Ms. Marvel is investigating the murder of Mike Barnett which Mystique was already planning in #22. The events were retconned to add to the hostility between Ms. Marvel and Mystique and reveal the reasons of hinted but unexplained hostility between the Brotherhood and the Hellfire Club in various 1980s appearances. The MCP has placed several Ms. Marvel appearances between "Ms. Marvel" #22 and this issue but it In hardly affects the chronology of any other character.
6) In "X-Men" vol. 1 #129 (January, 1980), Shaw makes his first published appearance. He and other Hellfire Club members listed to anything said within Xavier mansion which has been bugged for some time. Shaw wants to recruit the X-Men to his cause "by hook or by crook" and dismisses the concerns of Mastermind of the X-Men being too dangerous. Frost, Leland and Donald Pierce are also present. The scene is followed by Frost and the X-Men (Colossus, Professor X,Storm and Wolverine) visiting Chicago, separately attempting to recruit Kitty Pryde.
7) In #130 (February, 1980), Shaw issues order concerning the capture of Cyclops, Nightcrawler and Phoenix. Her claims to have built a billion dollar empire by not making the mistake of underestimating opponents. Mastermind doubts this but still promises to recruit Jean Grey for them. Frost reports to him about capturing the X-Men in Chicago but failing to capture Pryde. She resolves to have the latter's parents enroll the girl to her Massachusetts Academy in order to gain ownership of the girl. Mastermind continues to convert Phoenix to their new Black Queen. The free X-Men meet Dazzler before the end of the issue.
There are four years of stories between Shaw's take over and the fight between the Black and the White Queen. The White King position remaining vacant or covered by Pierce. However what position Pierce held is inconsistent. Not actually mentioned in early appearances, mentioned as former White King in "Uncanny X-Men" #245 -252 (June - November, 1989) and mentioned as former White Bishop through the 1990s. May we assume Pierce got the position when Namor refused?
Now lets see where this would fit in Namor's chronology.
*In "Marvel Spotlight" #4 (April, 1976), Namor faces the Symbionic Man, an artificial being, who dies by the end of the issue.
*In "Super-Villain Team-Up" #5-7 (April - August, 1976). Dr. Doom negates the life-preserving effects of Namor's suit. Namor turns to the Fantastic Four, particularly Mr. Fantastic, for assistance. Doom has given him a deadline of 24 hours to reconsider his offer of an alliance. Reed proves useless and the deadline ends with Namor having to join Doom in Latveria. The Four follow his trail and unsurprisingly have to fight against both Doom and Namor. Henry Kissinger turns up to remind them that Latveria is an ally of the United States and they haver no business attacking it. The Four lick their wounds and go, kindly informing the people of the Hydrobase where Namor is. Shroud turns up in Latveria and fights Doom while Namor just watches. Shroud wins and throws Doom to ... his doom and then leaves. Doom is actually saved by Namorita and Tamara Rahn.
*In "Daredevil Annual" #4 (1976), Dr. Doom has send Namor on a mission to find Keith Mallory, the abducted son of Robert Mallory. The senior Mallory was working "a Tidal Power Station to harness the energy of the oceans" and the kidnappers want the plans. So does Doom. Namor goes on a rampage looking for Mallory in New York City, fighting Daredevil in the process. Turns out the Power Station will cause damage to the oceans and Namor doesn't actually want it constructed. Daredevil promises to convince Mallory not to build it. Then Daredevil joins Black Panther in actually saving the boy.
*"Super-Villain Team-Up" #8 (October, 1976) had Dr. Doom held in Hydrobase, put to work to turn the Amphibians to baseline humans. He secretly communicates with Boris about some secret agenda. Meanwhile Namor and the Shroud are busy running away from the Latverians, not pleased about the apparent assassination of their leader. They take refuge in a traveling circus ...which is actually the Circus of Crime in a European tour. During the last performance, the two runaways are quite surprised to meet a Doom imposter. He is actually Prince Rudolfo of Latveria, trying to gain the throne by pretending to be his worst enemy.
*"Super-Villain Team-Up" #9 (December, 1976) had the Avengers (Captain America, Iron Man, Scarlet Witch, Vision, Wasp, Yellowjacket) mind-controlled by Attuma. He send them to attack Namor in Hydrobase but instead they find Doom. They start fighting with him and the rest of the Hydrobase inhabitants. Namor and Shroud find out who Rudolfo is. Shroud decides to join him while Namor leaves Latveria. He heads to Hydrobase, contemplating his own death since he needs a serum by Doom to survive. Which a deceased Doom can not provide. The free Avengers (Beast, Whizzer and Wonder Man) gather to fight against Attuma. (The issue has Namorita calling Namor her "big brother" which contradicts her origin).
*In "Avengers" vol. 1 #155-156 (January - February, 1977), the fight in Hydrobase continues. The Avengers are defeated, Doom taking down Captain America and Iron Man, Tamara Rahn knocking out Scarlet Witch with her fists, Namorita capturing the Wasp and various Amphibians taking care of Vision and Yellowjacket. Tamara Rahn wonders if the Vision is one of her people, the Banari who are red-skinned. (The Vision has a red face). Vision recovers and offers an alliance to Doom, an alliance against Attuma. Meanwhile the free Avengers fight Attuma when Namor attacks. He thinks Beast and Wonder Man are Attuma agents and keeps fighting Williams until recognizing the Whizzer as a World War II ally. All four decide to follow Attuma to Atlantis. Doom joins the other Avengers in attacking Atlantis. There the two groups meet and overwhelm Attuma's forces. Doom leaves after the battle is won.
*"Super-Villain Team Up" #10-12 (February - June, 1977), has Red Skull taking over Latveria. Doom is not pleased and joins with Captain America to depose him. Rudolfo and Shroud attempt to do the same. The Red Skull for some reason attacks Atlantis where Namor just resumed the throne. He heads to Latveria to also attempt to depose him. Red Skull shrinks Doom and Rogers to microscopic size, defeats Rudolfo and Shroud and attempt to recruit Namor to his side. Doom promises to help cure Namor's, earning his loyalty again. (Most Atlanteans were in a coma for quite a while). Red Skull teleports to the moon and only Doom and Shroud are willing to follow him there to defeat him. Doom fights and knocks out Red Skull, allowing the latter's lackies to take him away.
*"Marvel Two-In One" #28 (June, 1977), Namor is happy to be free of Doom. He returns home when attacked by the Piranha. He thinks he kills him. He later flies up to greet the jet of the Fantastic Four, transporting Thing and Alicia Reiss Masters to their vacation at the United Kingdom. Then they are attacked again by the Piranha. Thing lands the plane and goes help Namor ... but another Piranha abducts Alicia. The original Piranha had been eaten some time ago by a school of piranhas. According to this issue each was transformed to a Piranha duplicate. The Piranhas overwhelmed Namor and Thing with their sheer numbers and transported them to their underwater arena. Apparently they had taken the sport of capturing people and forcing them to fight for their amusement. Thee winner was allowed to go free while the loser was eaten by the Piranhas. Namor and Thing were forced to fight with Alicia's life as the prize. However their fight wrecked the arena and the attending Piranhas were killed in its collapse.
*"Super-Villain Team-Up" #13 (August, 1977), is a victory issue for Namor. Doom performs as promised and manages to wake the Atlanteans from their coma. The two still have to fight Krang and a sea monster until the end of the issue. Doom leaves in peace, contemplating that Namor derives his power from his people. This finished Nomor's major subplots for a while.
*"Defenders" vol. 1 #52-55 (October, 1977 - January, 1978) has underwater nuclear tests threatening Atlantis. Namor calls the Defenders (Hellcat, Hulk and Nighthawk) to help end the tests. To find out their cause in the Presence who was transforming himself and their former teammate Red Guardian to beings of nuclear energy. The team has to stop the Presence from conquering the world and do it before they die of radiation poisoning. However Red Guardian regained her senses and told him off for trying to kill her friends and the inhuman futility of his plans. Losing the woman he loved, Presence resigned and departed in sadness. As did Red Guardian. The Defenders are not that happy either, left exceptionally ill and having to be treated for radiation poisoning.
*In "Defenders" #56 (February, 1978), Bruce Banner and Soviet scientists work hard to cure Namor, Hellcat and Nighthawk before they die. Banner, Hellcat and Nighthawk are then returned to the United States while Namor returns to Atlantis. Meanwhile Valkyrie chases Lunatik in New York City.
*In "Fantastic Four" vol. 1 #194-195 (May - June, 1978), Namor is on the run from the Retrievers of Atlantis. After helping revive his fellow Atlanteans from their coma, they apparently took to seeing his as devine. Disgusted at being asked to heal them with his hands and perform miracles, Namor left Atlantis. He returned to his private business, Imperial Studios in Hollywood, Los Angeles, California. He put his effords in reviving his studio and arranged to hire Susan Storm-Richards as an actress. However the ruling council of Atlantis decided that Namor mast rule... whether he wants to or not. They send the Retrievers, six powerful robots, to fetch their wayward monarch. Namor and Susan fought and defeated the robots. But Namor realized that their message was that his people needed him and decided to return to Atlantis anyway.
*In "Doctor Strange" vol. 2 #31-32 (October - December, 1978). Dr. Strange has to fight Alaric, current user of the mystical sword of Kamuu.Alaric believed he would gain immortality if he manages to kill the Sorcerer Supreme. He knocked down all of Strange's magical defenses and Clea, the last line of defense, before attacking Strange himself. The Eye of Zartra protected him again Strange's spells but at that moment Namor arrived. He was a descendant of Kamuu and Zartra and came to retrieve the artifacts of his ancestors. Alaric was able to wound him but this triggered the Curse of Zartra against anyone who spilled the blood of her descendants. He lost his strength and mystical energy to the point of exhaustion. Dr. Strange exiled him in Dyzakk's Cage and offered the Sword to Namor. Namor decided the Sword and the Eye were too dangerous together, leaving the Eye to Strange. (The Sword has appeared several times since then but the Eye has not appeared once in thirty years).
*In "Iron Man" vol. 1 #120-122 (March-May, 1979), Anthony Edward Stark returns from France to the United States, having discovered SHIELD has been secretly purchasing stock in Stark International in an effort to take over the company. The jet which he boards is taken down by "a flying tank" over the Atlantic Ocean and Iron Man has to save the passengers. Iron Man soon meets United States Special Forces who help the passengers and inform him the tank was thrown by Namor. Apparently Hiram Dobbs, an elderly farmer, has settled on an island used for "radioactive waste disposal". The Special Forces want to get him off the island and Namor thinks he is defending the old man from persecution. Iron Man tries to explains the situation to Namor and ends up fighting for his life against the enraged Atlantean. His armor eventually malfunctions and Namor has to save him from drowning. He takes him to Dobbs' cottage. There Stark finally explains the situation to Namor and the old man. However Dobbs informs him of living here for years and the military only setting foot this same morning. Iron Man realizes he has been duped. James Rhodes and Bethany Cabe meanwhile investigate to find the "military" to be agents of the Roxxon Oil Company in uniform. The island contains the largest deposite of Vibranium outside the grounds of Wakanda. Namor and Iron Man team up to destroy Roxxon forces. Jonas Hale of Roxxon decides to destroy the island before anyone else lays claim to it. Namor has a friendly parting with Iron Man before returning Dobbs to safety.
*In "Defenders" #74 (August, 1979), Dr. Strange visits Atlantis, attempting to convince Namor to join the Defenders against the Unnameable.
*In "Defenders" #78-83 (December, 1979 - May, 1980) the Defenders (Dr. Strange, Hulk and Namor) travel to Tunnelworld, another dimension, having one long campaign against the Unnameable. Naturally this prevents any of them from having encounters on Earth. Aeroika, a native, joins them. The Unnameable is defeted it by locking it within Hulk's brain where it can't heart anybody. (Locking a would-be conqueror of all life within an already unstable mind, sure no cause no trouble).
*"Defenders" #84 (June, 1980), has the group returned to Earth, celebrating their victory in Atlantis. Dr. Strange leaves, trusting Banner in the care of Namor. However Namor learns that Wakanda has been arresting Atlanteans on charges of holding stolen Wakandan technology. Black Panther arrives to settle the matter diplomatically ...and fights Namor. Actually releasing the Hulk to cause damages to Atlantis, almost drowning said Hulk and Wakandan missiles "accidentaly" targeting Atlantis almost destroy it. Black Panther's claims it was all a misunderstanding don't particularly satisfy Namor for obvious reasons.
*"Defenders" #85 (July, 1980) has Black Panther joining the Defenders (Clea, Dr. Strange, Hellcat,Hulk, Nighthawk, Valkyrie) in investigating who was smuggling Wakandan technology. Apparently the Mandrill. Namor only has a brief appearance, delivering Banner to Strange for safekeeping.
*"Fantastic Four" #219 (June, 1980) has Captain Barracuda and his crew assaulting Atlantis and stealing the Horn of Proteus. They use it to summon deep-sea monsters and directing them to assault Manhattan. Namor joins the Fantastic Four in fighting against Barracuda and reclaims control of the Horn.
*"Incredible Hulk" vol. 2 #250 (August, 1980) is mostly a battle of the Hulk against the Silver Surfer. I am not certain what Namor's role in it is.
*"Amazing Spider-Man" vol. 1 #211 (December, 1980) has Namor fighting Spider-Man in New York City. If I remember correctly Namor seeks some old enemies in New York, Spidey attacks the "villain" to prevent him from launching another Atlantean invasion. Apparently Parker is convinced that everytime Namor appears, am innvasion is on its way.
By this time already too late for Namor appearances to precede "X-Men" vol. 1 #131.
Nathan P. Mahney wrote:The first is Norman Osborn. Isn't he presumed dead at this point, and in hiding in Europe? I guess it could be set before Amazing Spider-Man #122, but as I understand it Shaw doesn't lead the Hellfire Club until after Uncanny X-Men #100. I guess I can buy that Norman is back in the US for a brief visit, but it doesn't really fit well with his history.
His "death" was depicted in "Amazing Spider-Man" vol. 1 #122 (July, 1973). His corpse in #123 (August, 1973). The events can not happen after Shaw takes over the Inner Circle. For the Retconned history of Norman during his European years see the following summary:
"Osborn regenerated from the near-fatal injuries via the "Goblin serum" in his blood and secretly fled to Europe. There, he built a vast communications network to monitor his affairs in America while the world believed him dead. Through this network, he discovered and joined the Cabal of Scrier. Finding the group near extinction, Osborn quickly rose up the ranks, until violently usurping the position of leadership from the former Scrier Prime. Osborn believed he could utilize the Cabal to become the European equivalent of the Kingpin of crime. He reshaped the Cabal - honing the fighting skills of the Scriers, updating their espionage techniques, and supplying sophisticated armaments. The Cabal forged new alliances with other nefarious organizations like A.I.M., Hydra, and the Hand.
Osborn sent a Scrier, Samuel Fox, to Empire State University professor Warren Miles for assistance with his cloning experiments upon Gwen Stacy (mother of Osborn's twin children) and Peter Parker. Using information and technology garnered from the European underground scientific community, Scrier Fox helped Warren succeed in creating clones of Stacy and Parker after several failures including the disfigured clone of Parker, Kaine. As the villainous Jackal, Warren sought to punish Parker for the death of Gwen, his beloved student. After Parker and his clone battled in Shea Stadium, the Jackal planned to convince the clone that he was the original genetic progenitor. However, Fox was ordered to turn against Warren, as the professor's plans against Parker conflicted with Osborn's slower timetable. Fox blackmailed Warren's assistant, Seward Trainer, to rig the Jackal's equipment to reverse the results of clone identification. Thus Parker's clone became the wanderer Ben Reilly while the Jackal believed he had robbed Spider-Man of his identity. Fox commanded Trainer to monitor the clone's whereabouts, as Osborn planned to use Reilly as a key player in his machinations. Trainer grew to become a mentor and friend to Reilly."
If A.I.M, Hydra and the Hand had contact with him, why not the Hellfire Club. But someone should compare it to other flashbacks from this period.
Nathan P. Mahney wrote:The second, and more problematic, is Selene. She's present here as Black Queen, which is impossible in the time-frame given. It explicitly says that the flashbacks are before Emma Frost's battle with Phoenix in Uncanny X-men #131, but Selene doesn't join the Hellfire Club until somewhere around #184.
Even worse. While Selene is supposed to be active since the Hyborian Era, she supposedly passed the last few centuries in Nova Roma, isolated in the Brazilian rainforest. She had no contact with the outside world until "New Mutants" vol. 1 #9 (November, 1983). She arrives in New York City in "Uncanny X-Men" #183 (July, 1984).She first heard of the Hellfire Club in "New Mutants" #22 (December, 1984). She is introduced to Shaw in #189 (January, 1985). The party to celebrate her status as a probationary member and candidate for the vacant Black Queen position was in "New Mutants" #23 (January, 1985).
Having her interacting with Shaw before "X-Men" vol. 1 #131 would mess badly with most of her early appearances. Is she actually identified by name, title or just by her appearance. Just to make sure this isn't supposed to be someone else.