X-Men/Spider-Man

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X-Men/Spider-Man

Post by metaldragon » Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:09 pm

Anyone been following the new X-Men/Spider-Man mini? What's the placement? It's got Wolverine with bone claws (but not totally feral looking) and Archangel still has metallic wings but is wearing the blue & white costume which sounds like... sometime around the Onslaught era? I don't follow Spider-Man so don't know much about the Spider-Clone Saga. This is the Ben Reilly Spider-Man? It looks like this is set around the time where he's not sure if he's the clone or the "other" Spider-Man is. Anyone narrowed it down yet?
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Re: X-Men/Spider-Man

Post by Somebody » Sun Jan 25, 2009 3:53 pm

I moved this from Issue Analysis because... it is not an analysis.

The miniseries jumps time periods from issue to issue. Speaking of #3, the issue in question... if Ben appears as Spider-Man, then he should be basically sure that he's the real one. He and Peter ran the tests themselves while he was still the Scarlet Spider.

Are Archangel's metal wings damaged in any way?

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Re: X-Men/Spider-Man

Post by Hotcharokey 2.0 » Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:40 pm

It appears as though X-Men/Spider-Man #3 occurs somewhere between UXM 325 and 328. In UXM 325, Iceman is still on the road with Rogue. In UXM 326, Storm talks to Gambit about Rogue leaving the X-Men, so Iceman is probably back with the X-Men even though he does not appear in the issue. In UXM 328, Sabretooth eviscerates Psylocke. In UXM 329-330, Archangel and Wolverine search for a cure for Betsy. In UXM 331, Several of the X-Men try to convince Warren to return to the X-Men, but he turns them down and and stays with Betsy while she recovers. In UXM 332, Wolverine has become feral. Also, in UXM 339, the Ben Reilly Spider-Man pays a visit to the Xavier Institute.

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Re: X-Men/Spider-Man

Post by metaldragon » Sun Jan 25, 2009 6:57 pm

Somebody wrote:I moved this from Issue Analysis because... it is not an analysis.

The miniseries jumps time periods from issue to issue. Speaking of #3, the issue in question... if Ben appears as Spider-Man, then he should be basically sure that he's the real one. He and Peter ran the tests themselves while he was still the Scarlet Spider.

Are Archangel's metal wings damaged in any way?
Woops! You're right. Sorry about that. Didn't know if anyone had done an issue analysis so I thought I'd ask there.

Ah. I just happened to read #3 because of the X-Men: Manifest Destiny #5 printing error. Interesting! Didn't know the other issues were in different time periods.

In the dialogue, the guy dressed as Spider-Man isn't sure if he's the original Spider-Man or the clone. He says the "other" Spider-Man lost his powers and settled down to a normal life. He calls himself Spider-Man and there is NO mention of "Scarlet Spider" in any dialogue. The X-Men comment on his new outfit (web canisters around the wrists look, going by the art). He remembers Cyclops, Iceman, and Archangel but doesn't remember Wolverine or Storm. From Sinister's telepathic attack we get a glimpse of Spider-Man going through some painful medical procedures. Now it's possible that this could be when he was first kidnapped and had genetic samples taken from him or this could be the clone being experimented on and rapidly matured. Sinister's dialogue implies that he is the clone. Wolverine can't tell the difference, says he smells the same as the "other one". Spider-Man's a bit freaked out that he might be the clone and not the other Spider-Man who lost his powers.

The art is rather "sketchy" in style so it's hard to make out any real detail but as far as I can tell Archangel's wings look undamaged and he fires his metal feathers at Sinister.

Wolverine's healing factor is in great condition because his claws heal back when Charnage snaps them off and eats them.

Oh, and Carnage happens to be in prison in a high tech mental ward if this helps placement.

So sometime after Fatal Attractions (UX 304/X 25/W2 75) and before UX 338. What run of Spider-Man issues takes place around that same time period? I assume that's Clone Saga territory?
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Re: X-Men/Spider-Man

Post by metaldragon » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:03 pm

Hotcharokey 2.0 wrote:It appears as though X-Men/Spider-Man #3 occurs somewhere between UXM 325 and 328. In UXM 325, Iceman is still on the road with Rogue. In UXM 326, Storm talks to Gambit about Rogue leaving the X-Men, so Iceman is probably back with the X-Men even though he does not appear in the issue. In UXM 328, Sabretooth eviscerates Psylocke. In UXM 329-330, Archangel and Wolverine search for a cure for Betsy. In UXM 331, Several of the X-Men try to convince Warren to return to the X-Men, but he turns them down and and stays with Betsy while she recovers. In UXM 332, Wolverine has become feral. Also, in UXM 339, the Ben Reilly Spider-Man pays a visit to the Xavier Institute.

Thanks Hotcharokey 2.0. I guess I was typing up my post while you posted yours. :lol:

How about earlier than the Road trip storyline in the post-Fatal Attractions time period?
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Re: X-Men/Spider-Man

Post by Hotcharokey 2.0 » Sun Jan 25, 2009 7:56 pm

metaldragon wrote:How about earlier than the Road trip storyline in the post-Fatal Attractions time period?
During the Fatal Attractions story line, Wolverine leaves the X-Men in Wolverine #75 as a result of discovering that he has bone claws. He doesn't return to the X-Men until Wolverine #90, during the Legion Quest storyline. The X-Men aren't home at the time, they are in the Negev Desert waiting for the end of reality. However, instead of the end of reality, the Age of Apocalypse begins. When the Age of Apocalypse ends, and everything returns to normal in X-Men Prime #1, Wolverine refuses to enter the mansion because Sabretooth is staying in the mansion, and Rogue and Iceman are in Florida on their road trip. Rogue left because she kissed Gambit in the Negev Desert and absorbed his memories.

Of course, it is always possible that Wolverine returned to the mansion sometime between Wolverine #75 and #90.

BTW, the Ben Reilly Spider-Man battled Carnage in Amazing Spider-Man #410, Spider-Man #67, and Spectacular Spider-Man #233. Those three books have a cover date of April 1996, which is the same cover date as UXM 331.

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Re: X-Men/Spider-Man

Post by dimadick » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:29 am

metaldragon wrote:Archangel still has metallic wings but is wearing the blue & white costume which sounds like... sometime around the Onslaught era?
The following is a costume gallery of Archangel. Does the costume you mention match Costume 10? See: http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight ... 100&page=9

If yes, it gives us the timeframe of "Uncanny X-Men" #319-338 (December, 1994 - November, 1996). Before that he had not used the blue and white costume Magneto created for him since the 1970s. At the end of the period his organic wings return.

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Re: X-Men/Spider-Man

Post by metaldragon » Mon Jan 26, 2009 11:49 am

dimadick wrote:
metaldragon wrote:Archangel still has metallic wings but is wearing the blue & white costume which sounds like... sometime around the Onslaught era?
The following is a costume gallery of Archangel. Does the costume you mention match Costume 10? See: http://www.uncannyxmen.net/db/spotlight ... 100&page=9

If yes, it gives us the timeframe of "Uncanny X-Men" #319-338 (December, 1994 - November, 1996). Before that he had not used the blue and white costume Magneto created for him since the 1970s. At the end of the period his organic wings return.
Yes, he's in the #10 costume (with metal wings).
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Re: X-Men/Spider-Man

Post by Somebody » Mon Jan 26, 2009 12:08 pm

metaldragon wrote:In the dialogue, the guy dressed as Spider-Man isn't sure if he's the original Spider-Man or the clone.
Glitch - as I say, Ben should be certain that he's the "real one" at this point.
metaldragon wrote:He says the "other" Spider-Man lost his powers and settled down to a normal life.
Actually, it was the other way around (he settled down, THEN lost his powers by getting zapped by the machine that originally zapped the spider. It was a Fabian Nicieza plot, so it's complicated :).)
metaldragon wrote:From Sinister's telepathic attack we get a glimpse of Spider-Man going through some painful medical procedures. Now it's possible that this could be when he was first kidnapped and had genetic samples taken from him or this could be the clone being experimented on and rapidly matured. Sinister's dialogue implies that he is the clone. Wolverine can't tell the difference, says he smells the same as the "other one".
BOTH Ben and Peter had memories of the clone's birth, so that doesn't mean anything.
metaldragon wrote:Wolverine's healing factor is in great condition because his claws heal back when Charnage snaps them off and eats them.
That strongly implies a post-AoA (so post-W2 90), pre-W2 100 placement. Pre-AoA, not only is Wolverine not an X-Man, but his healing factor is gone until W2 88 or so, and his bone claws never grew back at that sort of rate of knots - so placement inside the "feral" period where he was living outside and his healing factor was supercharged (he had a car run over him in W2 92 or so, and healed in less than a minute) is best. If he looks basically normal, then that's the pre-W2 100 bound. That, in turn, suggests placement between UX 322 and UX 331.

Side-note: Ben goes to the X-Mansion in UX 339. He recognises Beast, Cyclops, "Marvel Girl" and "Wolverine. Sort of" (Logan had gone Noseless Pirate by that point) but not Bishop.

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Re: X-Men/Spider-Man

Post by dimadick » Mon Jan 26, 2009 1:44 pm

metaldragon wrote:He says the "other" Spider-Man lost his powers and settled down to a normal life.
Peter Parker, the married Spider-Man, quit the heroics in "Spectacular Spider-Man" vol. 1 #229 (October, 1995), trying to be responsible for his pregnant wife Mary Jane and their baby to come. He quit being Spider-Man and offered the suit to Ben Reilly. In his words:"Mary Jane and I finally have an opportunity to head into the sunset and live happily ever after." Somehow their settling down involved moving to Portland where Parker got a new job and home. He did were the uniform one more time in the mini-series "Spider-Man:Final Adventure" #1-4 (December, 1995 - March, 1996) where he lost his powers.

This was supposed to be it for the Parkers when the mini-series was originally scheduled. But by the time it ended editorial had a different idea. The Parkers returned from Portland to New York in a two-parter including "Spider-Man vol. 1 #66" and "Spectacular Spider-Man" vol. 1 #232 (both March, 1996). Supposedly just for a visit but ended up joining the supporting cast of Ben Reilly for good and never did get back to Portland.

Parker started working for the Daily Bugle again in "Peter Parker" vol. 1 #69 (June, 1996). Parker started suffering from a mysterious sickness in "Peter Parker" vol. 1 #70 (July, 1996), hospitalized and apparently dying. His heart stopped in "Spectacular Spider-Man" vol. 1 #237 (August, 1996) and he was declared dead. Only for his body suddenly reviving to full health minutes later and his powers returning. His powers kept going on and off until the end of the Clone Saga in "Spider-Man" vol. 1 #75 (December, 1996) but basically any mention of lost powers places this before #237.

By the way the "Life of Reilly" mentions several X-Men plots appearing in #237. "Newspaper headlines and television reports regarding Graydon Creed, an anti-mutant propaganda machine who is intent on running for office." ... "Reports of an Onslaught menace are also popping up in the city. " Also placing the X-Men/Spider-Man #3 before the height of the Onslaught saga.

Basically this little reference places this story within "Spectacular Spider-Man" vol. 1 #229-237 (October, 1995 - August, 1996). Also before "Onslaught:Marvel Universe" (October, 1996) where the Daily Bugle gets more than a few reports on Onslaught.
metaldragon wrote:He calls himself Spider-Man and there is NO mention of "Scarlet Spider" in any dialogue. The X-Men comment on his new outfit (web canisters around the wrists look, going by the art).
Reilly took over the Spider-Man identity in "Sensational Spider-Man" vol. 1 #0 (January, 1996). The new outfit was created by Mark Bagley (Design) and Dan Jurgens (Art) for that issue Sensational #0. "This sharp new look featured the external web-shooters from the Scarlet Spider costume, the two-color gloves, and a general stylistic revamp."
metaldragon wrote:He remembers Cyclops, Iceman, and Archangel but doesn't remember Wolverine or Storm.
Parker and Reilly reportedly have identical memories of events until "Amazing Spider-Man" #149 (October, 1975). Then their experience and memory diverges. For Reilly the "X-Men" are Angel, Beast, Cyclops, Iceman, Marvel Girl and Professor X because he has memories of meeting them. Parker's first major interaction with the new X-Men was a team-up with Nightcrawler in "Amazing Spider-Man" #161-162 (October-November, 1976).

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Re: X-Men/Spider-Man

Post by Paul Bourcier » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:18 pm

metaldragon wrote:
and Archangel still has metallic wings but is wearing the blue & white costume which sounds like...
Really? It sure looks like his natural wings to me. So I'd place this after UX 338. Some quick checking on Ben Reilly tells me X/SM 3 is somewhere between ASM 407 and the start of the Revelation storyline in PPTSS 240.
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Re: X-Men/Spider-Man

Post by Somebody » Mon Jan 26, 2009 10:52 pm

*fishes out the issue, which he got for Ben-support without ever intending to read*
Paul Bourcier wrote:Really? It sure looks like his natural wings to me.
No, those are absolutely metal wings. Look at the double-page spread where Wolverine slashes at Carnage and Cyclops fires at Sinister - not only does he have the mini-wings in the middle that he only has with the metal, not only are the wings too geometric and smooth to be feathered, but he's firing flechettes at Sinister.

(I grant that the cover appears to show him feathered for some reason, the colouring could be clearer inside, and he shouldn't have the open mask, but he's definitely drawn with [undamaged] wings of metal throughout the interior).

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Re: X-Men/Spider-Man

Post by Aquashark » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:24 am

Hi! It's my first time here, and this thread caught my attention...

I've spent the evening reading over the issues with Spider-Ben that I've got, and I just wanted to throw some questions/suggestions out there:

1) Does Ben find out that Peter no longer has his powers in PPTSS 232 (I'm missing it, but all resources seem to indicate it happens here)?
2) The mystery of the Spider-skeleton found in the infamous smokestack was going through the issues at this time. During the "Blood Brothers" story arc, Peter casts doubt on the tests that determined who was the clone, and Ben's trust in Seward Trainer is shaken. Normally during this period, Ben is stubbornly confident that he is the real Spidey, but the aforementioned events seem to stress him out a bit (in PPTSS 234, I think he seemed a little weary and a bit less confident than usual regarding his status). This might cause his slighty strange behavior in the issue.

Would anyone know if this placement might work?

PPTSS 234 (Blood Brothers 4 - Ben seems a little shaken -- has been beat up previously by Hobgoblin and his costume is torn up)
SMTU 4 (I don't have this one... )
ASMU 12 (afternoon - Ben surrenders the skeleton to authorities (with JJJ present) and has dinner with Pete & MJ.)
XM/SM 3 (that night?)
ASMU 13 (JJJ has been missing for 24hrs; Ben teams up with Cage & Iron Fist to beat up Scorpion)
SENSM 5 (Blood Brothers 5 - Ben seems okay)

Let me know what you think!

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Re: X-Men/Spider-Man

Post by metaldragon » Wed Jan 28, 2009 1:38 am

Somebody wrote:*fishes out the issue, which he got for Ben-support without ever intending to read*
Paul Bourcier wrote:Really? It sure looks like his natural wings to me.
No, those are absolutely metal wings. Look at the double-page spread where Wolverine slashes at Carnage and Cyclops fires at Sinister - not only does he have the mini-wings in the middle that he only has with the metal, not only are the wings too geometric and smooth to be feathered, but he's firing flechettes at Sinister.

(I grant that the cover appears to show him feathered for some reason, the colouring could be clearer inside, and he shouldn't have the open mask, but he's definitely drawn with [undamaged] wings of metal throughout the interior).
I've always loathed those little mini-wing things. They are all Whilce Portacio's fault. Archangel never had them between when he first revealed his metal wings just before the Fall of the Mutants and the end of the X-Tinction Agenda crossover. It was only after that, when Whilce took over pencils on X-Factor, that he suddenly sprouted them. Anyway, I digress. Also check out Archangel's wing joints in that spread Somebody mentions. They are totally non-organic. The clincher is the flechettes.
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Re: X-Men/Spider-Man

Post by metaldragon » Thu Feb 05, 2009 5:14 am

Looks like things are narrowed down to the big guest appearance run between UX 325/X 45 (Iceman returns to the Mansion after the road trip that begins in X-Men: Prime) and UX 328/Sabertooth: Red Zone (Archangel's wings torn up by Sabretooth).

UX 328 has a cover date of Jan 1996, which is the same for PPTSS 230. So it looks like X-Men/Spider-Man #3 needs to take place right before that for the X-Men if this takes place as close to PPTSS 234 as possible for Spider-Man. That means for Archangel between X&CD 1 and UX 328 [his appearance here is missing from his listing], Cyclops between SMTU 1 and UX 328, Iceman between X 47 and SABRE:RZ, Storm between XFOR 48 and XFOR 51, Wolverine between UX '95 and UX 329.

Mr Sinister appears in UX 325 & X 45 so this story could continue on from whatever he was doing there in Seattle and before he goes to Genosha in C2 26.
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