X-MEN VS. HULK #1

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X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Paul Bourcier » Thu Feb 05, 2009 9:58 pm

So, where do we place this week’s X-MEN VS. HULK #1? Lockheed’s presence and Logan’s reference to the Brood nearly killing the X-Men clearly place the story after UX 166. However, established chronologies (including Official Index to the X-Men) place UX 166 after H2 276, the issue in which the Hulk gains Banner’s intellect. The Hulk shown in XVH 1 is the classic dumb green Hulk who changes into Banner, and we don’t see that iteration of the Hulk again for a long, long time after H2 276. By that time, the logical time for XVH 1 to happen in the X-Men’s chronology has long since passed. :?
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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Michael » Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:54 pm

Paul Bourcier wrote:So, where do we place this week’s X-MEN VS. HULK #1? Lockheed’s presence and Logan’s reference to the Brood nearly killing the X-Men clearly place the story after UX 166. However, established chronologies (including Official Index to the X-Men) place UX 166 after H2 276, the issue in which the Hulk gains Banner’s intellect. The Hulk shown in XVH 1 is the classic dumb green Hulk who changes into Banner, and we don’t see that iteration of the Hulk again for a long, long time after H2 276. By that time, the logical time for XVH 1 to happen in the X-Men’s chronology has long since passed. :?
Somebody and I discussed this question on the X-Men Message Board. Wolverine first meets Lockheed in Uncanny X-Men 172, and that story continues into Uncanny X-Men 173, so this story must take place after Uncanny X-Men 173. In X-Men vs. Hulk 1, the X-Men are distraught over the death of Jean Grey. JEAN, not MADDIE. Storm has her powers and Nightcrawler and Kitty are present. Storm loses her powers in Uncanny 185. She gets them back in Uncanny 226, but the story continues into Uncanny 227, where Storm,Peter and Logan fake their deaths. Nightcrawler and Kitty don't find out that they're alive until Uncanny 272. Meanwhile, in Uncanny 239, Storm and Logan find out that Jean's alive. So, X-Men vs. Hulk 1 must take place in between Uncanny X-Men 173 and Uncanny X-Men 185.
In Incredible Hulk 296, the Savage Hulk returns due to Nightmare's machinations. In Incredible Hulk 297, Nightmare takes control of the Hulk and sends him after Dr.Strange. Somebody argued that X-Men Vs. Hulk 1 takes place in between Incredible Hulk 296 and 297. I had problems with that. First, I doubted that enough time takes place in between Incredible Hulk 296 and 297. Logan would have to learn the Hulk became savage again, and arrange a fight between Peter and the Hulk. Second, it makes the X-Men into jerks. The Hulk has just mysteriously turned savage again, and instead of trying to undo it or find out if a villain is responsible, they're arranging a fight between Peter and the Hulk?WTF?

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:18 am

Thanks, Colonel, for the placement within the X-Men's chronology -- between UX 173 and 185. That makes sense. I already have a gap of weeks between H2 296 and 297, and it does make some sense for the Hulk to appear here, during a time when his savagery was waxing and waning. In fact, I have Banner appearing in FF 266-268 during this gap (rather than between pages of H2 295) because Banner appears in those issues without a leg brace, which was ditched in H2 296.

Is this a likely scenario?

H2 296 -- Hulk loses control and turns savage
BTS -- The savagery subsides and Hulk reverts to Banner
FF 266-268 -- Banner helps Richards in New York and things seem to be under control
BTS -- Word reaches Logan of Banner's new status quo and his location in upstate New York; the underlying savagery is not known
XVH 1 -- Logan sets up a confrontation between Hulk and Colossus
BTS -- Savagery returns and it has a firmer hold on the Hulk
H2 297 -- Things get out of hand and Hulk descends further into savagery

If so, my calendar notes would place the X-Men in XVH 1 between UX 181 and 183, which works.
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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Jason Doty » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:35 pm

Storm doesn't have a mohawk in this comic. So it has to be before they go to Japan.
Last edited by Jason Doty on Sat Feb 07, 2009 9:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Michael » Sat Feb 07, 2009 2:42 pm

Jason Doty wrote:Storm doesn't have a mohawk in this comic. So it has to be before they go to Japan. For the X-Men it has to go between 167 and 168
That won't work. Wolverine doesn't meet Lockheed until Uncanny X-Men 172. I think that Storm's hairstyle can be attributed to artistic license. How many stories have characters with the wrong costume,hair,etc? We just ignore these as errors when placing the stories.

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Jason Doty » Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:54 pm

Micheal wrote
Storm's hairstyle can be attributed to artistic license.
That's a pretty big discrepancy, were not talking about a slight artistic difference, the mohawk was a change in attitude. Storm is still acting pre mohawk in this comic. This title can only go in this spot. Wolverine dosn't speak or mention Lockheed in this comic, so we can ignore that clue. Since Banner changes by will from the Hulk to himself, we can asume Banner is doing Wolverine a favor by helping, since Wolverine set the whole thing up, and does a pretty good acting job, playing the part of mindless dumb Hulk. For Wolverine this would take place inbetween pages of Wolverine Limited series no.1. As for Logan meeting Lockheed for the first time in 172, It could also be read as he is suprised she decided to bring her "pet."

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Michael » Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:43 pm

Jason Doty wrote:Micheal wrote
Storm's hairstyle can be attributed to artistic license.
That's a pretty big discrepancy, were not talking about a slight artistic difference, the mohawk was a change in attitude. Storm is still acting pre mohawk in this comic. This title can only go in this spot. Wolverine dosn't speak or mention Lockheed in this comic, so we can ignore that clue. Since Banner changes by will from the Hulk to himself, we can asume Banner is doing Wolverine a favor by helping, since Wolverine set the whole thing up, and does a pretty good acting job, playing the part of mindless dumb Hulk. For Wolverine this would take place inbetween pages of Wolverine Limited series no.1. As for Logan meeting Lockheed for the first time in 172, It could also be read as he is suprised she decided to bring her "pet."
No, it can't.
Wolverine:"What the heck is that around Kitty's neck?"
Nightcrawler:"Her pet dragon."
In any case, the X-Men only find out that Lockheed followed Kitty home in Uncanny 168. So that means this has to take place after Uncanny 168.

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Jason Doty » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:28 pm

Looking at the chronologies for the X-Men. I'm thinking this should go between M/GN 5 and X&AF2 1 both of which come between UX 168 and UX 169.

How would the Hulk pan out at this time, assuming he was acting as part of the set-up by Wolverine?

I understand this may not be the most ideal solution, but I can't see any other way around it. Storm's tranformation was a key element around that period of time. I can overlook, Wolverine's comment about "What's that/" in UX 172, a whole lot easier than I can a long haired Storm acting the concerned adult around the time when she is having so many personal issues concerning her stabing of Calisto, her wild outing with Yukio which changes her look entirely and UX 180 itself dealing with Kitty's reaction to this change.

If anyone has a better solution let me know? Other issues have already been shoe horned between these issues. We can only do what we can.

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Somebody » Sat Feb 07, 2009 8:48 pm

Banner's a horrendous actor - it's come up before, although I forget the specific issues.

Basically, you have to shoehorn this in for both the X-Men and the Hulk. You're trying to minimise the X-Men shoehorning; by suggesting between H 296 & 297 at Comicboards I was trying to minimise the Hulk shoehorning. As I *also* suggested at Comicboards, there's nothing depending on this being canon - it's not being followed up, it's not part of an ongoing series, and it doesn't have a linewide banner on it - and reasons not to incorporate it because of the levels of shoehorning required.

I'm surprised at Claremont at messing up his OWN X-continuity, though, which he's usually highly precious about (far less so, however, at an impossible Hulk placement from him).

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Michael » Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:11 pm

Jason Doty wrote:Looking at the chronologies for the X-Men. I'm thinking this should go between M/GN 5 and X&AF2 1 both of which come between UX 168 and UX 169.

How would the Hulk pan out at this time, assuming he was acting as part of the set-up by Wolverine?

I understand this may not be the most ideal solution, but I can't see any other way around it. Storm's tranformation was a key element around that period of time. I can overlook, Wolverine's comment about "What's that/" in UX 172, a whole lot easier than I can a long haired Storm acting the concerned adult around the time when she is having so many personal issues concerning her stabing of Calisto, her wild outing with Yukio which changes her look entirely and UX 180 itself dealing with Kitty's reaction to this change.

If anyone has a better solution let me know? Other issues have already been shoe horned between these issues. We can only do what we can.
The solution Paul,Somebody and I suggested is that this takes place between Uncanny 181 and Uncanny 183. Storm was acting fairly mature in Uncanny 183-185. There's another problem with the Banner acting theory. In Marvel Two In One Annual 7, which takes place before Uncanny 168, Peter meets an intelligent Hulk. Now if this issue takes place between Hulk 296 and 297, then Peter's lack of surprise at seeing a savage Hulk doesn't have to be explained away- he could have seen a news broadcast "Hulk Mysteriously Turns Savage". If this takes place between Uncanny 168 and 169, then Peter's an idiot.

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by dimadick » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:20 am

Paul Bourcier wrote: If so, my calendar notes would place the X-Men in XVH 1 between UX 181 and 183, which works.
Those issues are the immediate aftermath of the first Secret War for the X-Men. Where does the team meet the Hulk?

In #181 (May, 1984), Colossus, Lockheed, Nightcrawler, Professor X, Rogue, Storm and Wolverine return to Earth in some spot close to Tokyo. Cyclops was instead returned to Tahiti where he was spending his honeymoon with Madelyne Pryor. "Storm asks Rogue to return to the States while the X-Men stay in Japan." Storm wants to find out what happened to Kitty Pryde during their absence. "Xavier also ask her [Rogue] to get news about Cyclops and the New Mutants."

In #182 (June, 1984), there is a spotlight issue for Rogue. She flies from Tokyo to the Xavier Mansion. She checks the answering machine and listed to a message by Madelyne seeking her husband during the Secret War, another informing them of Michael Rossi being arrested while performing unsupervised research in SHIELD's Hellicarrier. Carol Danver's personality then takes over and goes off to save her former mentor and lover. Rogue fails to listed to a message by Illyana Rasputina concerning Kitty being captured by Emma Frost. That same issue, Frost reports to Sebastian Shaw about converting the New Mutants to the newest Hellions recruits.

In #183 (July, 1984), the X-Men are back at the Xavier Mansion, including Kitty. Colossus has been avoiding her for a while and finally confesses about falling in love with Zsaji during the Secret War. He ends his relationship with Kitty. Storm tries and fails to get Rogue to open up to her. Rogue thinks she is going crazy and has lost faith in anyone at the Xavier Mansion being able to help her. Storm ponders that everything is going sour with both Rogue and Kitty. She comments on Xavier having left for the weekend with the New Mutants, unavailable to help. However Illyana is still at the Mansion, comforting Kitty. Kitty then leaves the X-Men for a scheduled "two weeks" recuperation. Wolverine and Nightcrawler get Colossus to Manhattan for a "chat" concerning his relationship to Kitty. Piotr gets slightly drunk and provokes the Juggernaut to a fight with him. Cain was simply looking for a peaceful night out and is disgusted with "heroes" interfering with it. Unknown to him his date for the night was Selene looking for a victim. Logan finally dismisses Piotr as an insensitive, egocentric brat, the seeming point of the episode.

If the X-Men meet the Hulk in the vicinity of New York, the period between #182 and #183 would be the logical spot for placement. Any particular mention to the states of mind of Kitty and Rogue?
Jason Doty wrote:Storm doesn't have a mohawk in this comic. So it has to be before they go to Japan.
Storm gets her mohawk in the already mentioned "Uncanny X-Men" #173 (September, 1983), returning to the team for the wedding ceremony of Wolverine and Mariko Yashida, following "a week" of absence somewhere in Japan. Wolvie has minimal interaction with Lockheed prior to this point. The dragon simply snarls at him in #172 (August, 1983). Kitty has to explain to him that Logan is a friend.

What kind of interaction do the two have in the one-shot?
Jason Doty wrote:For Wolverine this would take place inbetween pages of Wolverine Limited series no.1.
Not an ideal placement. "Wolverine" vol. 1 #1 (September, 1982) opens with Wolverine tracking down a bear in the Canadian Rockies. The bear had killed "seven men, three women, and five kids". Wolverine finds and kills the bear. He discovers the bear had an illegal barbed point, coated with poison in it. It failed to kill it but drove it crazy. Wolvie then tracks down the hunter responsible to Coalspur, "fifty-seven miles away in a straight line from the bear’s den". He beats the guy up and delivers him to the local authorities. He then returns to the Xavier Mansion, finding all his letters to Mariko Yashida returned. He fails to reach her through either the Japanese embassy in the United States or the phone of her home in Tokyo. The following day, Wolvie leaves from Kennedy airport for a flight to Tokyo. The only stop mentioned for the flight is Anchorage, Alaska.

The implication seems to be that Wolvie stays at the Mansion for less than a day. No interaction with the other X-Men is mentioned. Already quite a few tales have been placed between pages. That must have been one long day.
Michael wrote:In any case, the X-Men only find out that Lockheed followed Kitty home in Uncanny 168. So that means this has to take place after Uncanny 168.
In the opening of "Uncanny X-Men" #168 (April, 1983), Wolverine leaves for a vacation in the Canadian Rockies, set up for his first mini-series. Several days later, Christmas Eve, Kitty discovers Lockheed. Colossus is the second X-Man to see the dragon. Professor X is the third and wonders if the dragon can eat him, unclear if he is sarcastic or not. Not sure when Lockheed was introduced to the others. He is not supposed to meet Wolvie until #172.

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by dimadick » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:19 am

Jason Doty wrote:Looking at the chronologies for the X-Men. I'm thinking this should go between M/GN 5 and X&AF2 1 both of which come between UX 168 and UX 169.

I understand this may not be the most ideal solution, but I can't see any other way around it. Storm's tranformation was a key element around that period of time. I can overlook, Wolverine's comment about "What's that/" in UX 172, a whole lot easier than I can a long haired Storm acting the concerned adult around the time when she is having so many personal issues concerning her stabing of Calisto, her wild outing with Yukio which changes her look entirely and UX 180 itself dealing with Kitty's reaction to this change.
"Marvel Graphic Novel" #5 (1982) features Wolverine but not Lockheed. There is a subplot of Wolverine acting particularly grouchy and dismissing the Danger Room scenarios as games for kids. Kitty finds him scary. The implication is that something is bothering him but what is not explained. Its current MCP listing suggests he has lost all contact with Mariko, giving an answer at what is bothering him.

"X-Men and Alpha Flight" vol. 2 #1 (May, 1998) does feature both Wolverine and Lockheed but they do not interact. The opening has Cyclops and Wolverine visiting the grave of Jean Grey. Lockheed tries to help Kitty pick the right date for her first date alone with Colossus.

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Jason Doty » Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:05 am

This is getting rediculus.

In X-Men vs. Hulk. Storm has long hair and is wearing a tiara. Suggesting putting it between anywhere after UX 173 is mindboggling.

Because Lockheeds in the book it's after UX 168. We know Wolverine leaves for Canada in UX 168, but has to return from Canada in Wolverine no.1 to accomidate his appearances in Marvel Graphic Novel no.5 and X-Men & Alpha Flight v2, then returns. Placing X-Men Vs. Hulk in this gap is the only place this will fit for the X-Men, thanks to Lockheed, Storm's appearance, the Brood comment, Wolverine being with the X-Men in that time period. So Wolverine had to be home longer that a day between pages of Wolverine no.1.Wolverine set up the challenge with the Hulk and Storm new in advance, which means they must have been dealing with a intelligent Hulk. Hulk shows up and Colossus attacks him, before the short battle ends, Hulk helps Colossus and then reverts to Banner at will.

By reinterperting one line of dialog, where Wolverine says "What's that? from a question to suprise in UX 172 (and I'm pretty sure he says Custum's must have loved that, after),this story fits without any glaring continuity glitches on the part of the X-Men.

As far as Peter looking like an idiot about meeting Hulk in M/TO @7. I don't remember them having any personal interaction and as I recall, Hulk got kicked out of the boxing match for acting "savage." X-Men vs. Hulk is about Peter learning not to jump to conclusions. Hulk shows up out of nowhere in the middle of nowhere and out of fear or suprise Colossus attacks him. How does Peter not know he hasn't returned to being savage? He's been savage before, Why would he have to know in advance? Wolverine set this up in advance and let Storm in on it before hand. Hulk had to be intelligent. I'm not a Hulk expert but I'm thinking this needs to be placed after M/TO 96 and before Hulk 281, for Hulk and leaves him around the New York area where Thing is in the hospital after the match. Also this would alow Wolverine to set this up behind the scenes. Since both he and Hulk are both in M/TO 96. How does Hulk 281 start off.

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Russ Chappell » Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:05 am

Jason Doty wrote:This is getting rediculus.
Everyone is attempting to have a reasoned, logical discussion with you, and you're bordering on being insulting, here.

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Jason Doty » Sun Feb 08, 2009 10:44 am

I apologize if my comments bordered on being insulting. My reasoning wasn't intended to insult anyone, but comics are a visual medium. If Storm was in a different costume or wearing civilian clothing or her mohawk was somhow longer than another artists, I would strike that up to artist interpretation, and not argue the point. My underlying point is that she is shown with long hair and a tiara, in this comic. I cannot wrap my mind around the fact that her hair grew back between issues of UX.

A precedent has already been established that there is a gap established even though it's not the most perfect fit, but neither are the issues already placed there. It just has to be. It requires the least amount of continuity problems.

Striking comics from continuity is also not exceptable

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As I *also* suggested at Comicboards, there's nothing depending on this being canon - it's not being followed up, it's not part of an ongoing series, and it doesn't have a linewide banner on it - and reasons not to incorporate it because of the levels of shoehorning required.
I may not be very good at articulating my point of view, sometimes. I just could not understand not trying to place the characters based on the visual clues.

Hopfully no one is offended by, by my ridiculus comment and if so, I once again apologize.

Does my placement work based on what I presented for the X-Men? and would Hulk work between his H2 182 and 183 as dimadick suggested, which I believe was published around the same time frame?

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