X-MEN VS. HULK #1

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Somebody » Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:31 pm

Jason Doty wrote:A precedent has already been established that there is a gap established even though it's not the most perfect fit, but neither are the issues already placed there. It just has to be. It requires the least amount of continuity problems.
Only from an X-Men POV. From the Hulk POV, it only magnifies the existing problems.
Jason Doty wrote:Striking comics from continuity is also not exceptable
I presume you mean "Acceptable". "Exceptable" would be closer to saying "it's an exception and that's okay," which is the opposite of what I believe you're attempting to say.

And of course it is. The non-canon list in the FAQ includes 339 separate series, quite a few of which were intended to be in-continuity at the time of publication.

We treat a Marvel Comic as in-continuity unless (a) Marvel says it isn't or (b) it can't be. "It can't be" isn't a fixed target - a present-day issue of Fantastic Four would be next-to-impossible to throw out. A random one-shot set in a place in continuity which doesn't exist? Less so.
Jason Doty wrote:Does my placement work based on what I presented for the X-Men? and would Hulk work between his H2 182 and 183 as dimadick suggested, which I believe was published around the same time frame?
Uh... H2 182 and 183 take place before GSX 1 (#182 is Wolverine's third appearance). If you're trying to argue "oh, stick it anywhere for Hulk whether it fits or not", stop. You need to actually demonstrate that your placement could fit for Hulk, and throwing out a couple of random issues (dimadick was referring to *UX* 182 and 183) doesn't work.

And no, in no way shape or form does a placement between UX 182 and 183 "work" for Hulk. This is the core problem - during this period, there is no place where the Hulk is actually ACTING like this. Hell, from H2 272, there's no time for *almost two decades* where the Savage Hulk is the standard for any length of time, and very few times he's around at all. Teh Lobe's current series is the first Savage Hulk-centric ongoing since then, basically.

Between H2 296 and 297 is the ONLY place where this even MIGHT fit, and that involves a crowbar. There *is nowhere else*. If that doesn't fit for the X-Men in a reconcilable way, then "it can't be".

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Michael » Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:46 pm

Jason Doty wrote: As far as Peter looking like an idiot about meeting Hulk in M/TO @7. I don't remember them having any personal interaction and as I recall, Hulk got kicked out of the boxing match for acting "savage." X-Men vs. Hulk is about Peter learning not to jump to conclusions. Hulk shows up out of nowhere in the middle of nowhere and out of fear or suprise Colossus attacks him. How does Peter not know he hasn't returned to being savage? He's been savage before, Why would he have to know in advance? Wolverine set this up in advance and let Storm in on it before hand. Hulk had to be intelligent. I'm not a Hulk expert but I'm thinking this needs to be placed after M/TO 96 and before Hulk 281, for Hulk and leaves him around the New York area where Thing is in the hospital after the match. Also this would alow Wolverine to set this up behind the scenes. Since both he and Hulk are both in M/TO 96. How does Hulk 281 start off.
You mean Hulk 280. Hulk 281 is the second part of a Leader story that started in 280. Hulk 280 starts with Bruce walking out of a hotel room in New York.

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Jason Doty » Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:05 pm

Yes, I did mean the early Hulk 280's. Hulk's based in New York, and I believe it was printed at roughly the same time as the gap.

So, this works for the X-Men, now to work on Hulk. I know around that time Banner becomes the dominate personality and I still contend Wolverine had to be dealing with an inteligent Hulk in order to set up the challenge for Peter and inform Storm before the Hulk arrived. He also transformed at will at the end of the issue and introduced himself to Colossus after rendering him assistance.

Now the question begs. Is there a gap in the early 280's of Hulks comic to place this and at anytime did Hulk act "savage" for lack of a better description, because I do agree that Hulk's characterization sucks in this comic, and since I'm not as fimiliar with Hulk, I'll go with the concensus, but I want to exaust all possibilities before a rulling it out. Hulk's appearance here is just as important as my feelings regarding the X-Men. I wouldn't suggest just placing his appearance just anywhere.

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by dimadick » Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:34 am

Jason Doty wrote:Yes, I did mean the early Hulk 280's. Hulk's based in New York, and I believe it was printed at roughly the same time as the gap.

So, this works for the X-Men, now to work on Hulk. I know around that time Banner becomes the dominate personality and I still contend Wolverine had to be dealing with an inteligent Hulk in order to set up the challenge for Peter and inform Storm before the Hulk arrived. He also transformed at will at the end of the issue and introduced himself to Colossus after rendering him assistance.

Now the question begs. Is there a gap in the early 280's of Hulks comic to place this and at anytime did Hulk act "savage" for lack of a better description, because I do agree that Hulk's characterization sucks in this comic, and since I'm not as fimiliar with Hulk, I'll go with the concensus, but I want to exaust all possibilities before a rulling it out. Hulk's appearance here is just as important as my feelings regarding the X-Men. I wouldn't suggest just placing his appearance just anywhere.
1) "Incredible Hulk" vol. 2 #280 (February, 1983) is the aftermath of the superhero gathering of the previous issue, starting at midnight of the same day. Hulk is still in New York as already mentioned and reporters and photographers maintain a siege outside his hotel room. "They ask if the Hulk is dead. They ask if he is going to join the Avengers. They ask if he can change back and forth at will. They ask if he plans to engage in gamma ray research. They ask about building more gamma bombs. They ask about his favorite actress, pistachio, and if it is easy being green. The photographers start snapping picture after picture. The flashes blind Bruce. He swings his fist and tells them to get the blazes out of there. The news people start to run, but then they remember that the Hulk isn’t a monster anymore, and that Bruce Banner wouldn’t hurt them. Bruce asks what they want to know. He answers all the questions as best as he can." The Leader's plan in this issue is mostly to asses the differences between the Savage Hulk and the one controlled by Banner.

The X-Men did attend that gathering and the MCP places that issue , along with several other crossovers, in a gap between "Uncanny X-Men" #167 and #168. A bit too early for Lockheed to be hanging out with them. He is supposed to be hiding in Xavier Mansion at the time.

2) #281(March, 1983) is a direct continuation of #280. Hulk borrows a quinjet from the Avengers (Captain America, Captain Marvel/Monica Rambeau, Hawkeye, Iron Man, She-Hulk, Thor, Wasp) to reach the Leader's space station. There Samuel finds out the big difference between the two Hulks. The old (Savage) Hulk "would have just kept smashing and smashing until his enemies lie defeated." ... Bruce can’t help thinking and analyzing. ... Banner’s reason douses the flames of his anger. ...Banner is ensuring his own destruction." He hands a humiliating defeat to the Hulk and lets him go, considering him beneath his notice.

3) In #282 (April, 1983), Hulk's hotel kicks him out because of the fight in his hotel room during #280. He moves to Avengers Mansion. There he fights with Arsenal, a robot created by Howard Stark and forgotten below the Mansion for quite a while. He manages to get angry for the first time when She-Hulk is thought to be heart. By the end of the issue Hulk and the Avengers have managed to locate the space station's current location and prepare to face the Leader again.

4) In #283 (May, 1983), Hulk and the Avengers (Captain America, Captain Marvel, Hawkeye, Iron Man, She-Hulk, Thor, Wasp) pay the Leader a visit. However Samuel is time traveling and the Avengers fall into a trap and are also lost in time. Only Hulk and She-Hulk remain in the present and pplan to locate the Leader.

5) In #284 (June, 1983), Hulk and She-Hulk time travel to 1944 France. They find Captain America exiled there by the Leader and having teamed-up with Bucky/James Buchanan Barnes from this time-period. The three of them then travel to 12th century Sherwood Forest where they locate Hawkeye and Iron Man. Hawkeye has joined Robin Hood's Merry Men and Iron Man the Black Duke's knights. The five that travel to Viking Age Greenland where they find Thor involved into conflict between two Viking factions. Then they six of them travel to prehistoric Earth where Leader has already defeated Captain Marvel and the Wasp, attempting to change the evolutionary history to produce Gamma-irradiated life-forms. They defeat the Leader who falls into an active volcano. Then the eight of them return to the present where the Wasp offers the Hulk a position with the Avengers.

6) In #285 (July, 1983), some time has passed and Hulk has moved to Northwind Observatory. At the time of the issue parts of it are still under construction by engineer Scott Lang (Ant-Man). Hulk has found time to start recording his memoirs.

7) In #286 (August, 1983), Hulk time travels from the Observatory to an alternate future era dominated by Kang the Conqueror's warrior philosophy. Kang himself does not appear but a recording of his voice does.

8) In #287 (September, 1983), Hulk hires a new research assistant for his Observatory, Dr. Kate Waynesboro. He does not find out yet that Kate is an undercover SHIELD agent. Her superiors at the agency are still suspicious of the Hulk and want to keep track of his level of control. (Shades of Nick Fury?). There are appearances by the Abomination and MODOK.

9) In #288 (October, 1983) MODOK allies with Thaddeus "Thunderbolt" Ross. They torture the Abomination, trying to get him to agree to another fight with the Hulk. Their last encounter ended with Emil beaten badly and reduced "a quivering mass of cowardice". The Hulk visits Dr. Bates, his dentist. He doesn't know Bates is also a SHIELD agent. (A SHIELD agent under every rock?)

10) In #289 (November, 1983), the subplots of the last few issues culminate in a battle between the Hulk and MODOK's faction of AIM.

Basically there are gaps of quite time for the Hulk between #284 and #285, #285 and #286 and #286-287. No ongoing plots between these issues. Would a crossover with the X-Men fit between either of the three little gaps?

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Starman » Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:06 am

There is a gap of a month between #285 and 286, according to the narration. I think that might be a good spot to where one could squeeze in Hulk appearences. I rather not place anything between #284 and #285, because #284 ended in a sort of a cliffhanger ("Will the Hulk join the Avengers?"), and between #286 and #287 doesn't really work as #287 is a direct continuation to #286. (Hulk is still holding the body of his dead friend of the future in the beginning of #287, and in the same kneeling position as in the end of #286 nonetheless. He then starts digging a grave for him with his bare green hands.)
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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Michael » Mon Feb 09, 2009 8:27 am

Here's the problem with placing X-Men vs. Hulk in the 280's of the Incredible Hulk: the Hulk isn't acting savage in any of those issues. The Hulk doesn't start acting savage again until after Secret Wars.

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Selaboc » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:20 pm

Here's the problem with placing X-Men vs. Hulk in the 280's of the Incredible Hulk: the Hulk isn't acting savage in any of those issues. The Hulk doesn't start acting savage again until after Secret Wars
Jason's point, I think, is that the Hulk is "acting" savage in this issue not that it's really the "Savage Hulk" for the reasons he lists (Wolverine is able to set up the fight in advance indicating he's dealing with an intelligent rational Hulk rather than a Savage Hulk, Hulk transforms back to Banner at will, etc). While the Hulk appears to act savage, Jason's contention is that it's just that, an act in order to facilitate the fight that Wolverine set up in which case your problem with placement becomes a non-issue.

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Somebody » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:46 pm

Banner's a crap actor. It's been the basis of quite a few plots. And if Banner was in the driving seat, the Hulk wouldn't have healed from Lockheed's fire.

I don't consider "he's pretending" a viable option. Either it goes between H2 296 and 297, or it goes out.

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Selaboc » Mon Feb 09, 2009 1:59 pm

Banner's a crap actor.

Be that as it may, it's still an option particularilly in light of the fact that Wolverine was able to set-up this fight ahead of time.

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Michael » Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:20 pm

Somebody wrote:Banner's a crap actor. It's been the basis of quite a few plots. And if Banner was in the driving seat, the Hulk wouldn't have healed from Lockheed's fire.
Has it ever been stated that the Hulk's healing factor doesn't work when Banner's in the driving seat? I know that the Hulk didn't heal from Ultron's blast during the Secret Wars but there could be other explanations for that.

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Somebody » Mon Feb 09, 2009 2:59 pm

Michael wrote:
Somebody wrote:Banner's a crap actor. It's been the basis of quite a few plots. And if Banner was in the driving seat, the Hulk wouldn't have healed from Lockheed's fire.
Has it ever been stated that the Hulk's healing factor doesn't work when Banner's in the driving seat? I know that the Hulk didn't heal from Ultron's blast during the Secret Wars but there could be other explanations for that.
Banner-Hulk can't get madder, can't get stronger, and has a healing factor orders of magnitude lower than the Hulks. It's all linked in - when the Hulk gets mad, he heals faster. Banner doesn't get the upgrades - and when Savage reasserted and got mad, the leg healed instantly.

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by GodRob » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:38 am

All we really see is Steaming Hulk, not Burnt To A Crisp Hulk who then instantly heals. I'm just glad his purple pants are impervious to flames. Did the flames even hurt him at all or was he simply crap acting?

As for his crap acting, he's only trying to convince Colossus and Kitty that he's savage. Would it be a stretch to call Colossus gullible? Probably not too much of a stretch. Does Hulk convince Kitty? Maybe, we don't get to read her thoughts as the story is from Peter's point of view. She is certainly distraught over her little dragon being hit by the strongest being on the planet and getting only a few bumps and bruises.

Other than his crap acting, is their any reason this story can't take place between Hulk 284 & 285?

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Paul Bourcier » Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:39 am

GodRob wrote:
Other than his crap acting, is their any reason this story can't take place between Hulk 284 & 285?
Placing XVH 1 between H2 284 and 285 would mean placing it between UX 167 and 168, given existing chronology. Placing XVH 1 between H2 285 and 286, as also suggested, would mean placing it either between UX 168 and 169 or between UX 170 and 171. Either way, things appear to work as far as Storm is concerned, but we have these problems:

1) The whole crap acting thing
2) The fact that Colossus isn't wondering why the heck the Hulk is savage when, last he knew, Banner was in control
3) The fact that Logan wonders what the heck Lockheed is in UX 172, after he's presumably seen the creature in XVH 1

Any other problems?
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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by Michael » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:29 pm

Paul Bourcier wrote:GodRob wrote:
Other than his crap acting, is their any reason this story can't take place between Hulk 284 & 285?
Placing XVH 1 between H2 284 and 285 would mean placing it between UX 167 and 168, given existing chronology. Placing XVH 1 between H2 285 and 286, as also suggested, would mean placing it either between UX 168 and 169 or between UX 170 and 171. Either way, things appear to work as far as Storm is concerned, but we have these problems:

1) The whole crap acting thing
2) The fact that Colossus isn't wondering why the heck the Hulk is savage when, last he knew, Banner was in control
3) The fact that Logan wonders what the heck Lockheed is in UX 172, after he's presumably seen the creature in XVH 1

Any other problems?
We can't put it before UX 168.The X-Men don't realize Lockheed followed them home until UX 168.

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Re: X-MEN VS. HULK #1

Post by GodRob » Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:04 pm

Michael wrote:2) The fact that Colossus isn't wondering why the heck the Hulk is savage when, last he knew, Banner was in control
Even after Banner gained control of the Hulk, Colossus witnessed Banner losing control and becoming a "mindless brute" during the fight with the Champion in Marvel Two In One Annual 7. Yes, Colossus knows Banner is normally in control (from Hulk 278, 279, and MTO 96) but he's also seen the mindless Hulk too.

If Hulk jumped in and knocked about you and your girlfriend (and her dragon and a bunch of rabbits), which Hulk do you think just showed up? The mindless Hulk you recently saw fighting the Champion. Just as Wolverine and Banner planned.
Michael wrote:3) The fact that Logan wonders what the heck Lockheed is in UX 172, after he's presumably seen the creature in XVH 1
In X-Men & Alpha Flight II 1, Wolverine and Lockheed are both living in the X-Mansion together. I know the book was probably fit into continuity with a crowbar and duct tape, but it does set a precedent that the X-Men knew about Lockheed at a time when Wolverine was still at the X-Mansion.

Logan's dialogue in UX 172 "What the heck is that around Kitty's neck?!" Well, he can clearly see it's a dragon, he could just be suprised that Kitty is displaying Lockheed so openly in Japan. Nightcrawler is ok, but not a dragon. (yes, I'm reaching) Haven't characters in the MU had multiple first meetings before?

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