Ka-Zar's son's name - where was it revealed?

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Selaboc
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Re: Ka-Zar's son's name - where was it revealed?

Post by Selaboc » Fri Apr 24, 2009 10:36 am

"Guns of the Savage Land" is the GN I was talking about.

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Re: Ka-Zar's son's name - where was it revealed?

Post by JephYork » Fri Apr 24, 2009 1:30 pm

And why might it be non-canon?

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Re: Ka-Zar's son's name - where was it revealed?

Post by Russ Chappell » Fri Apr 24, 2009 9:06 pm

jephyork wrote:And why might it be non-canon?
Wait. I'm confused.

When you said this:
jephyork wrote:I strongly suspect that his full name was given as all three, at one time or another -- "Matthew, Kyle, Adam" -- and the Handbook stuck 'em all together.
were you saying you suspected this was the origin of his listing in the handbook, or were you saying that you suspected it was listed that way in the Handbook?

Asked another way: HOW is it presented in the Handbook?

If the handbook gives all three names, then it really doesn't matter whether the graphic novel is canon or not.

I should say that it's only we who have determined that the graphic novel is not canon, for our purposes. No clue what Marvel thinks. My memory is that there were many strikes against it, not least being that the Savage Land was located in Arizona, or some such.


watching: nancy grace

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Re: Ka-Zar's son's name - where was it revealed?

Post by JephYork » Fri Apr 24, 2009 11:14 pm

The Handbook lists his name as "Adam Kyle Matthew Plunder" (OHOTMU HC vol.6, 2008). I was trying to figure out if any comic had actually rattled his full name off in that fashion, or whether the Handbook name was cobbled together from several contradictory in-comic first names for the kid.

And I'm not asking if the GN is canon because it will allow me to "negate" one of the names. You're right, the full name as presented in the Handbook is now canon regardless of the GN's canonicity.

Rather, I was asking if the GN was canon because, during my work on the next Index issue, I came across a reference to it as some character's next appearance -- and I want to know more, so I can see if the reference needs to be stricken or to be kept.

I barely know anything about Ka-Zar, though, so I'm not even sure if "The Ka-Zar Graphic Novel" is the same as "Guns of the Savage Land." (The index ref was to "Guns".) Could someone maybe whip me up a list of problems with the GN in question, so I can present it up the chain?

Thanks!

-Jeph!

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Re: Ka-Zar's son's name - where was it revealed?

Post by Selaboc » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:10 am

jephyork: " I barely know anything about Ka-Zar, though, so I'm not even sure if "The Ka-Zar Graphic Novel" is the same as "Guns of the Savage Land." (The index ref was to "Guns".) Could someone maybe whip me up a list of problems with the GN in question, so I can present it up the chain?"

the Ka-zar GN listed as being non-canon here at the MCPs non-canon list is "Guns of the Savage LandHere is a link to the cover http://www.comiccovers.com/data/media/5457/0001.jpg notice the "Graphic Novel" in the "M" logo at the top left of the cover.

It came out shortly after the High Evolutionary recreated the Antartic Savage Land in the pages of various Marvel Annuals .

As i recall the probelems with it included (but not necessarily limited to).
1a) The various tribes of the Antartic Savage Land basically kicked Ka-zar and Shanna out, having decided they don't need a Jungle lord as a result...
1b) Wyatt Wingfoot takes Ka-zar and Shanna to a here-to-for never before seen and never since referenced again section of the savage land that exists, in of all places, beneath the United States Desert in Nevada or Utah (one of the western states where atom bomb testing use to occur) - I think this was the clincher on why the MCP agreed this one was non-canon.
2) pro-modern world/technology (as per Ka-zar the Savage in the 80s and the later 90s Waid/Kubert revival) Ka-zar is very anti-modern world/technolgy in the GN, where as anti-modern world/technology (again, as per the above) Shanna is pro-modern world/technology. A complete 180 for the depiction of both characters.
3) the book ends with Ka-zar and Shanna seperating for good. With Ka-zar in the new savage land and Shanna returning to civilization. Susequent appearances of both character never mention thier seperation, and indeed their "next" appearance they are together as if nothing had ever happened to seperate them.

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Re: Ka-Zar's son's name - where was it revealed?

Post by Selaboc » Tue Apr 28, 2009 8:22 am

further to point 3 above, their "next" appearance, both characters are living in the Antartic Savage Land with no mention of their being kicked out by the united tribes, their trip to the US version of the Savage Land, or their breakup.

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Re: Ka-Zar's son's name - where was it revealed?

Post by Giant Ant » Tue Apr 28, 2009 9:11 pm

Selaboc wrote: 1b) Wyatt Wingfoot takes Ka-zar and Shanna to a here-to-for never before seen and never since referenced again section of the savage land that exists, in of all places, beneath the United States Desert in Nevada or Utah (one of the western states where atom bomb testing use to occur) - I think this was the clincher on why the MCP agreed this one was non-canon.
It could be related to Edgar Rice Burrough's Pellucidar, wich is another underground "Savage Land". It is canon in the Marvel universe because of the 70s Tarzan series. Looking at the GN, I actually think that the writer had Pellucidar in mind when he wrote that story.

From wikipedia : "A peculiarity of Pellucidar's geography is that due to the concave curvature of its surface there is no horizon"
From the GN (as narrated by Wyatt Wingfoot) : "An entire world that curves away like a bowl. There's no horizon here."

Selaboc wrote: 2) pro-modern world/technology (as per Ka-zar the Savage in the 80s and the later 90s Waid/Kubert revival) Ka-zar is very anti-modern world/technolgy in the GN, where as anti-modern world/technology (again, as per the above) Shanna is pro-modern world/technology. A complete 180 for the depiction of both characters.
They do mention a couple of times in the GN that Ka-Zar's not in his right mind, and that being rejected by the Savage Land tribes affected him.

Selaboc wrote: 3) the book ends with Ka-zar and Shanna seperating for good. With Ka-zar in the new savage land and Shanna returning to civilization. Susequent appearances of both character never mention thier seperation, and indeed their "next" appearance they are together as if nothing had ever happened to seperate them.
Nothing is ever "for good" in comics. Maybe the tribes of the Savage Land decided that, after all, they needed someone to rule them? Maybe Shanna got tired of civilization, went back to Ka-Zar, and they both returned to the Savage Land?
I don't think it necessarily has to be stricken out of continuity. There are many in continuity stories wich are never again referenced...
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Re: Ka-Zar's son's name - where was it revealed?

Post by Somebody » Tue Apr 28, 2009 10:46 pm

Giant Ant wrote:It could be related to Edgar Rice Burrough's Pellucidar, wich is another underground "Savage Land". It is canon in the Marvel universe because of the 70s Tarzan series.
Not everything published by Marvel is MU canon [nor, indeed, is it all intended to be], and I don't see Tarzan in the MCP (that said, I don't see it on the non-canon list either. That should probably be addressed.)

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Re: Ka-Zar's son's name - where was it revealed?

Post by Giant Ant » Tue Apr 28, 2009 11:06 pm

Somebody wrote: Not everything published by Marvel is MU canon [nor, indeed, is it all intended to be], and I don't see Tarzan in the MCP (that said, I don't see it on the non-canon list either. That should probably be addressed.)
I know that. :)
I think the Tarzan series was made part of Marvel's continuity when Abdul Alhazred, who fought Tarzan in Pellucidar in Tarzan #15-23, returned to fight Wolverine in MCP #62-63 and #152-155.
(info above taken from the OHOTMU Mystic Arcana bibliography,
http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:B ... d.2C_Abdul ).

So, as strange as it may sound, Tarzan is, indeed, in continuity.

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Re: Ka-Zar's son's name - where was it revealed?

Post by ShadZ » Thu Apr 30, 2009 5:56 pm

Giant Ant wrote: I think the Tarzan series was made part of Marvel's continuity when Abdul Alhazred, who fought Tarzan in Pellucidar in Tarzan #15-23, returned to fight Wolverine in MCP #62-63 and #152-155.
(info above taken from the OHOTMU Mystic Arcana bibliography,
http://www.marvel.com/universe/OHOTMU:B ... d.2C_Abdul ).
Abdul Alhazred appearing in MCP was not what brought TARZAN into Marvel's continuity. Abdul Alhazred is a character taken from H.P. Lovecraft stories, and he was not created by the writer of TARZAN #15. So there is no reason to think that the writer of MCP #62 was referencing the TARZAN comics -- he was more likely making an independent reference to H.P. Lovecraft.

What brought the TARZAN series into Marvel's continuity was the Mystic Arcana handbook -- one of the writers of that handbook decided to use the Abdul Alhazred connection to bring TARZAN in (with the full approval of the editors, I'm sure...)
ShadZ

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Re: Ka-Zar's son's name - where was it revealed?

Post by Giant Ant » Thu Apr 30, 2009 10:41 pm

ShadZ wrote: Abdul Alhazred appearing in MCP was not what brought TARZAN into Marvel's continuity. Abdul Alhazred is a character taken from H.P. Lovecraft stories, and he was not created by the writer of TARZAN #15. So there is no reason to think that the writer of MCP #62 was referencing the TARZAN comics -- he was more likely making an independent reference to H.P. Lovecraft.
Thanks! I didn't know that. I'd assumed that Alhazred was either an original Marvel character or one of ERB's creation.
Still, my original point stands. In "Guns of the Savage Land", Ka-Zar, Shanna and Wyatt Wingfoot visit a land that seems to have been intended as Pellucidar. Pellucidar was visited by Tarzan when he fought Abdul Alhazred in Tarzan #15-23. These issues have been made a part of Marvel's continuity by the Mystic Arcana handbook.

So, to say that "Wyatt Wingfoot takes Ka-zar and Shanna to a here-to-for never before seen and never since referenced again section of the savage land that exists, in of all places, beneath the United States Desert in Nevada or Utah" could be untrue, as it could be the same land that Tarzan visited (and thus "before seen")...
Still, I haven't checked the relevant Tarzan issues to see how it might fit... But if they do, I don't see why the GN shoul be considered out-of-continuity...

I hope I'm making sense...

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Re: Ka-Zar's son's name - where was it revealed?

Post by Selaboc » Fri May 01, 2009 8:55 am

Giant Ant wrote:Still, my original point stands. In "Guns of the Savage Land", Ka-Zar, Shanna and Wyatt Wingfoot visit a land that seems to have been intended as Pellucidar.
That's your interpretation that it was intended to be Pellucidar. The GN does not call it Pellucidar, it calls it the Savage Land. The intention, appears to me atleast, to have been to create a new Savage Land for Ka-zar to reside in. I suspect the book was origionally commissioned BEFORE the Savage Land in Antarica was recreated in the the pages of the Marvel annuals and as it was released AFTER, the bit about the united tribes kicking Ka-zar and Shanna out was a last minute addition as it appears, to me atleast, as this was an attempt to set up a new status quo for Ka-zar. It was a radical departure from what went before, a departure that what came after completely (and wisely, imo) ignored.
Giant Ant wrote:Still, I haven't checked the relevant Tarzan issues to see how it might fit... But if they do, I don't see why the GN shoul be considered out-of-continuity....
Other than that it sticks out like a sore thumb. Ka-zar *AND* Shanna have complete personality transfers in regards to their views on civilization for this one book only. The Status Quo the book sets up is completely forgotten about with the characters next appearances, and it was a pretty major change in status quo. They had a messy break up akin to Hank and Jan's break up in the Avengers. Characters just do forget that kind of break up and go back to being happily married without it EVER being mentioned again (just look at Hank and Jan in the Avengers). Ka-zar is one of my favorite Marvel Characters, so trust me I don't consider any of his stories "non-canon" lightly. If they can fit, I like to see them included and would fight for their inclusion (seeing as the MCP currently has this one in the non-canon list). This one just doesn't fit, IMHO.
ShadZ wrote:Abdul Alhazred appearing in MCP was not what brought TARZAN into Marvel's continuity. Abdul Alhazred is a character taken from H.P. Lovecraft stories, and he was not created by the writer of TARZAN #15. So there is no reason to think that the writer of MCP #62 was referencing the TARZAN comics -- he was more likely making an independent reference to H.P. Lovecraft.
I guess the reall question is, how much does that character called Abdul Alhazred that appears in the MCP resemble the one that appears in Tarzan #15 (I don't have the later book with which to check)? If they were intended to be the same character, I'd expect the artist to have used Tarzan #15 version as a visual reference. If they look nothing alike, I'd say you are correct that it wasn't an intended reference, whereas if they do, I'd say Giant Ant is correct that is was an intended reference.
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Re: Ka-Zar's son's name - where was it revealed?

Post by loki » Fri May 01, 2009 10:12 am

Selaboc wrote:ShadZ wrote:
Abdul Alhazred appearing in MCP was not what brought TARZAN into Marvel's continuity. Abdul Alhazred is a character taken from H.P. Lovecraft stories, and he was not created by the writer of TARZAN #15. So there is no reason to think that the writer of MCP #62 was referencing the TARZAN comics -- he was more likely making an independent reference to H.P. Lovecraft.
I guess the reall question is, how much does that character called Abdul Alhazred that appears in the MCP resemble the one that appears in Tarzan #15 (I don't have the later book with which to check)? If they were intended to be the same character, I'd expect the artist to have used Tarzan #15 version as a visual reference. If they look nothing alike, I'd say you are correct that it wasn't an intended reference, whereas if they do, I'd say Giant Ant is correct that is was an intended reference.
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/alhazred.htm

Abdul as shown in MCP at the top, Abdul as shown in Tarzan is third image down. They do look very alike. Add to that is that the editor of MCP said in the letters page of MCP #160 that readers had "seen his [Abdul's] face before" - and the only other place a character of that name had turned up was Tarzan (he'd been bts in earlier MCP, but the editor said we'd seen him, so he wasn't referencing that bts appearance). Without the physical resemblance there might have been a case to argue that maybe the names were coincidence and that the MCP Abdul had turned up previously using a different name; with the name matching, the appearance very similar, and the editorial comment, it's pretty much an open and shut case.

As noted above and discussed before, with editorial approval the Handbooks can and do sometimes confirm stuff from off-the-mainstream track (licensed stories, promotional, non-US comics, novels, etc) as being in continuity when there's been no prior evidence to confirm it (and, naturally, nothing that rules it out) - Hugo Danner from Marvel Preview #9 is one case, confirmed via the Marvel Atlas. This particular instance however is more of a "making explicit what was previously implicit."

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Re: Ka-Zar's son's name - where was it revealed?

Post by Enda80 » Fri May 08, 2009 8:46 pm

In Tarzan#3, La of Opar the Atlantean descended woman invoked Valka, from Kull and a Man-Thing story.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_(Tarzan)

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