Heroes Reborn #1/2

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

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Heroes Reborn #1/2

Post by Col_Fury » Sat May 30, 2009 12:16 am

Once upon a time Wizard put out one of those 1/2 issues for Heroes Reborn...

Anyone have it? I'm wondering if it's just filled with pin-ups & sketches or if there's story content. If so, how many stories and what characters appear in there?

Please & thanks!
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Re: Heroes Reborn #1/2

Post by JephYork » Sat May 30, 2009 3:34 pm

If anyone has the various Heroes Reborn TPBs that collected #1-6 of those series, I think the various "chunks" of 1/2 that focus on each character are in there...

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Re: Heroes Reborn #1/2

Post by rhod » Sun May 31, 2009 2:37 pm

I'll have to check but I have a feeling there were only 2? One for the Avengers and one for Iron Man?
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Re: Heroes Reborn #1/2

Post by Col_Fury » Sun May 31, 2009 3:01 pm

If you could that would be great!

I'm just looking for a quick note of what happens in the stories and who appears in them.

Thanks!
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Re: Heroes Reborn #1/2

Post by JLH » Tue Jun 02, 2009 1:37 pm

The Watcher shows us the HR Earth, focusing on Rikki Barnes, saying she'll soon become Bucky. She's standing around in a street with her brother John Barnes nearby. Sort of future "visions" of her as Bucky, Eagle-symbol Cap, Nick Fury, Red Skull appear. Then a quick shot of Cap and her in action. Uatu yaks about how Earth has "faith" throughout. 6 pages. Titled "Faith". Liefeld/Fraga/Loeb are the creators listed.

A sketchbook in between. 6 pages. Lots of ads throughout the book.

Second story has Anthony Stark telling his armor he hates it. He has a long conversation with it as he tries to figure out what went wrong with it, then Reed Richards drops by. Pepper is BTS, she told Reed where Tony was. This is after the thing that happend with Rebel, Tony's down about it, Reed reminds him it's the man inside the armor that's to blame, and he shouldn't destroy himself won't make anything better. Tony tells his armor it's not off the hook yet, but gets up and leaves with Reed. 6 pages. Titled "Oz never did give Nothing to the Tin Man...". Lobdell story, Robert Teranishi pencils, Sandra Hope inks.

Anything else? Need clarifications?

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Re: Heroes Reborn #1/2

Post by Col_Fury » Tue Jun 02, 2009 7:47 pm

Thanks JLH!

So for the first story, this should be the Watcher's first appearance on HR Earth:

UATU
...
O:MU
*HR 0.5
FF2 7
...

And it sounds like Rikki Barnes makes her first chronological appearance here, so before CA2 1. Then she and Cap appear again after they've teamed up.

Would between CA2 5 & 6 work for both? If so:

CAPTAIN AMERICA
...
CA2 5
*HR 0.5
CA2 6
...

And is it just me, or is there no chronology for the HR Bucky here yet? To get us started...

BUCKY VII/RIKKI BARNES
*HR 0.5 (4-5)
CA2 1
CA2 2
CA2 4
CA2 5
*HR 0.5 (1-3, 6)
CA2 6
**CA2 8-FB
CA2 10-FB
CA2 10
CA2 11
CA2 12
HR: R 3
HR: R 4
...

I know she appears elsewhere after this, at least in Thunderbolts and I'm pretty sure the Heroes Reborn/Planet Doom one-shots. And I just saw her in a house ad for Captain America #600...

For the second story, this would take place between pages 4 & 5 of IM2 1. So for Iron Man:

IRON MAN
...
IM2 1 (1-4)
*HR 0.5/2
IM2 1 (5-44)
...

This would also be Reed Richards' first chronological appearance on HR Earth, so:

MR. FANTASTIC
...
O:MU-FB
*HR 0.5/2
FF2 1
...

And for Pepper Potts, this would end up before she appears in IM2 1, so her earliest chronological appearance as well, albeit BTS. BUT... I'm not seeing a chronology for her, either:

POTTS, PEPPER | HEROES REBORN (or whatever)
*HR 0.5/2-BTS
IM2 1
IM2 2
IM2 3
IM2 4
*IM2 5-FB
IM2 5
IM2 7
IM2 8
IM2 12
X 65-VO
*HR: R 4
REBEL
JLH wrote:Anything else? Need clarifications?
Just some page/panel ranges for Bucky, I guess.

Thanks again, JLH! :D
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Re: Heroes Reborn #1/2

Post by Somebody » Tue Jun 02, 2009 11:30 pm

Col_Fury wrote:And is it just me, or is there no chronology for the HR Bucky here yet? To get us started...

[...]
I know she appears elsewhere after this, at least in Thunderbolts and I'm pretty sure the Heroes Reborn/Planet Doom one-shots.
HR: Young Allies, certainly. She also appears in several Thunderbolts issues (an arc shortly after TB 50, and then again towards the end of the Counter-Earth arc).
Col_Fury wrote:And I just saw her in a house ad for Captain America #600...
That's an alternate She-Bucky, from Onslaught Reborn. She got dumped on the main MU-Earth at the end of that series, on the day of CA5 25.
Col_Fury wrote:And for Pepper Potts, this would end up before she appears in IM2 1, so her earliest chronological appearance as well, albeit BTS. BUT... I'm not seeing a chronology for her, either:
Also, we don't have a HR-Hulk chronology.

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Re: Heroes Reborn #1/2

Post by Russ Chappell » Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:10 am

Col_Fury wrote:And is it just me, or is there no chronology for the HR Bucky here yet? To get us started...

Urrmm...

Start with this, but I don't know the last time it was updated.

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Re: Heroes Reborn #1/2

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:11 pm

Nice!

I've added little notes for additions to my previous suggestions above, and it looks like Bucky has her Thunderbolts & Young Allies appearances there already.

I see that Rikki's brother has a listing, and it sounds like he appears in Heroes Reborn #0.5, so:

BARNES, JOHN
*HR 0.5
CA2 1
CA2 2
CA2 4
CA2 5

In the case of the Hulk, they revealed in the Hulk book at the time that Bruce Banner was split from the Hulk, creating two character listings. Bruce went to the Heroes Reborn world while the Hulk stayed in the Marvel Universe.

The way we have it at the moment makes it look like Bruce Banner is an inhabitant of the Heroes Reborn world, but he's actually Bruce Banner who becomes the Hulk again in the Heroes Reborn world. The Hulk left behind in the Marvel Universe at the time was unstable without Bruce to control his radiation.

I think we should put the Heroes Reborn chronology back in the main Hulk listing(to keep Bruce Banner's chronology in one place) and split off the other Hulk into his own listing, maybe like this:

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER
...
H2 444
H2 445

O:MU-FB
IM2 1
IM2 2
IM2 4
A2 4
A2 5
IM2 5
FF2 6/2
A2 6
IM2 6
H2 450/2
IM2 8
IM2 10
IM2 11
A2 12
IM2 12
HR:R 1
HR:R 2
HR:R 3
HR:R 4
H2 460
H2 461

...

HULK/BANNER-LESS
O:MU-FB
H2 446
H2 447
H2 448
H2 449
H2 450
H2 450/2
H:HU
SS3 125
SMTU 6
HFH 1
H '97
H '97/2-FB
H2 451
H2 452
H2 452 ~ DPOOL3 4
DPOOL3 4
SENSM 14
SENSM 15
H2 452
H2 453
H '97/2
H2 453
H2 454-FB
H2 454
H2 -1-BTS
H2 455
H2 456
H2 457
H2 458
H2 459
HR:R 1
HR:R 2
HR:R 3
HR:R 4 (and maybe a note here about how this Hulk is merged back with Banner... but that's obvious if you have the book in front of you)

And of course, keep this chronology in the main listings.

Also, the Serpent King on the Heroes Reborn page needs an addition to his name:

SERPENT KING/NICK FURY LMD

And this in the main listings:

FURY, NICK II
CA2 1

needs to be deleted. That's just the Fury LMD/Serpent King, and this issue is already in his chronology.

Yay!
-Daron Jensen

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Re: Heroes Reborn #1/2

Post by Somebody » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:21 pm

Administrator wrote:Urrmm...

Start with this, but I don't know the last time it was updated.
How come that's not linked? I understood the New Universe page being hidden, since it only included the Quasar/Starblast issues, but that looks more or less complete as it is. AFAIK, there's been no appearances (certainly no significant appearances - I suppose there may have been a cameo in some form somewhere) of any characters native to the HR-Earth/Counter-Earth since TB 75, and no real mention of it since Jolt's last appearance in A/TB 6.

[As I said, Onslaught Reborn took place on an alternate HR-Earth (green ball, not blue...), and the only character from there to come across to the MU is the Rikki-Bucky alternate that will be appearing in CA 600.]
Col_Fury wrote:In the case of the Hulk, they revealed in the Hulk book at the time that Bruce Banner was split from the Hulk, creating two character listings. Bruce went to the Heroes Reborn world while the Hulk stayed in the Marvel Universe.

The way we have it at the moment makes it look like Bruce Banner is an inhabitant of the Heroes Reborn world, but he's actually Bruce Banner who becomes the Hulk again in the Heroes Reborn world. The Hulk left behind in the Marvel Universe at the time was unstable without Bruce to control his radiation.

I think we should put the Heroes Reborn chronology back in the main Hulk listing(to keep Bruce Banner's chronology in one place) and split off the other Hulk into his own listing, maybe like this:
Thing about that is twofold - firstly, the Hulk that was left behind was the one who had continuity of identity (and the Incredible Hulk title, of course - we SAW the two being split in O:MU, for the record).

Secondly, how do we treat split characters anyway? The "Fallen Angels" Madrox - who PAD retconned into a dupe during his first X-Factor run - is included in the Madrox-Prime chronology as things stand. Should that be changed?

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Re: Heroes Reborn #1/2

Post by Col_Fury » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:38 pm

Somebody wrote:The "Fallen Angels" Madrox - who PAD retconned into a dupe during his first X-Factor run - is included in the Madrox-Prime chronology as things stand. Should that be changed?
I would think so, yes.

As for Hulk, how about:

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER
...
H2 444
H2 445
O:MU-FB (split from Hulk personality)
IM2 1
IM2 2
IM2 4
A2 4
A2 5
IM2 5
FF2 6/2
A2 6
IM2 6
H2 450/2
IM2 8
IM2 10
IM2 11
A2 12
IM2 12
HR:R 1
HR:R 2
HR:R 3
HR:R 4 (merged with Hulk personality)
H2 460
H2 461
...

HULK/BANNER-LESS
O:MU-FB (split from Banner personality)
H2 446
H2 447
H2 448
H2 449
H2 450
H2 450/2
H:HU
SS3 125
SMTU 6
HFH 1
H '97
H '97/2-FB
H2 451
H2 452
H2 452 ~ DPOOL3 4
DPOOL3 4
SENSM 14
SENSM 15
H2 452
H2 453
H '97/2
H2 453
H2 454-FB
H2 454
H2 -1-BTS
H2 455
H2 456
H2 457
H2 458
H2 459
HR:R 1
HR:R 2
HR:R 3
HR:R 4 (merged with Banner personality)
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Re: Heroes Reborn #1/2

Post by mds449 » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:49 pm

Somebody wrote: AFAIK, there's been no appearances (certainly no significant appearances - I suppose there may have been a cameo in some form somewhere) of any characters native to the HR-Earth/Counter-Earth since TB 75, and no real mention of it since Jolt's last appearance in A/TB 6.
HR-Earth/Counter-Earth was visited on the Exiles' "World Tour" around issues EX3 81 & 82, and I remember Bucky appearing in that story.

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Re: Heroes Reborn #1/2

Post by Somebody » Wed Jun 03, 2009 8:34 pm

Col_Fury wrote:
Somebody wrote:The "Fallen Angels" Madrox - who PAD retconned into a dupe during his first X-Factor run - is included in the Madrox-Prime chronology as things stand. Should that be changed?
I would think so, yes.
Where exactly do you stop though? Madrox is a good example for most of the potential cases - do we track any identifiable dupe? There's a dupe that persists through the MadroX mini (the one Jamie leaves behind with Guido and Rahne), but doesn't appear in any issues Madrox-Prime doesn't and doesn't acquire any specific traits. He get an entry? What about John Maddox, the priest-dupe, who has an individual name and hasn't been reabsorbed (yet), but - again - hasn't appeared in any issues Madrox-Prime hasn't. Or "Madrox, Agent of SHIELD", who appeared in a FNSM issue entirely independently of Madrox. Or the "X-Factor" dupe, who gets reabsorbed in XF3 2, but then gets back out again in XF3 12 and is key to the plot both times? :)

[I'm not saying it's a bad idea, just that we need some sort of guideline that can withstand stress testing by 1001 Jamie Madroxes :)]
Col_Fury wrote:As for Hulk, how about:

HULK/DR. ROBERT BRUCE BANNER
[...]
O:MU-FB (split from Hulk personality)
[HR issues]
HR:R 4 (merged with Hulk personality)
[...]

HULK/BANNER-LESS
O:MU-FB (split from Banner personality)
[MU issues]
HR:R 4 (merged with Banner personality)
I would still feel more comfortable having the MU-Hulk keep the listing, and Banner/HR-Hulk be the one to be split.

And another case here - that wasn't the first "Banner-Less Hulk". Even if we ignore the Crossroads era - when Banner was just supressed - there's the Byrne-run Bannerless/Mindless Hulk who was very different from the Bannerless/"Gravage" Hulk from IH 446-459. Not to mention a few minor incidents, such as the annual where Banner became Captain Universe, split off from the Hulk.
mds449 wrote:
Somebody wrote:AFAIK, there's been no appearances (certainly no significant appearances - I suppose there may have been a cameo in some form somewhere) of any characters native to the HR-Earth/Counter-Earth since TB 75, and no real mention of it since Jolt's last appearance in A/TB 6.
HR-Earth/Counter-Earth was visited on the Exiles' "World Tour" around issues EX3 81 & 82, and I remember Bucky appearing in that story.
Should have known someone would catch me out with something I missed :). I always forget about that because it's after an alternate 2099 and an alternate New Universe and it has eagle-head Cap on one of the covers :)

As things stand though, that's some way after the current MCP cut-off for "present-day" comics, which is stuck just before ReLoad and Disassembled.

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Re: Heroes Reborn #1/2

Post by JLH » Fri Jun 05, 2009 3:51 am

Col_Fury wrote:Just some page/panel ranges for Bucky, I guess.
Page 2-3 (a double page spread) has Bucky leaping through the air in the city saying "hi" for no reason.

Page 4-5 (another double page spread) has Rikki, pre-Bucky, looking towards, but not at, us, with her green haired brother just generically standing behind her. They're in the city, from the looks of it. The rest of page 5 has the vision-esque montage whatsit of Cap, Nick, and Red.

Page 6 has Cap standing with his shield, while Bucky runs at us and says "WhatEVer", all in a magical white void!

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Re: Heroes Reborn #1/2

Post by Col_Fury » Fri Jun 05, 2009 11:20 pm

JLH wrote:all in a magical white void!
Thanks again, JLH!(I've edited the pages into my suggestion above)
Somebody wrote:Where exactly do you stop though?
I would generally say dupes that make multiple appearances, whether they're alongside Madrox-Prime or not, and specifically named dupes, like John Maddox, should get their own listings, seperate from Madrox himself. One-off generic dupes or crowd shot dupes probably aren't necessary. Generally speaking, dupes that are imprtant to the plot, basically.

From your examples I would say:
Somebody wrote:There's a dupe that persists through the MadroX mini (the one Jamie leaves behind with Guido and Rahne), but doesn't appear in any issues Madrox-Prime doesn't and doesn't acquire any specific traits.
Probably, he's important to the plot.
Somebody wrote:What about John Maddox, the priest-dupe, who has an individual name and hasn't been reabsorbed (yet), but - again - hasn't appeared in any issues Madrox-Prime hasn't.
Absolutely, he's named AND important to the plot.
Somebody wrote:Or "Madrox, Agent of SHIELD", who appeared in a FNSM issue entirely independently of Madrox.
Hellz yes.
Somebody wrote:Or the "X-Factor" dupe, who gets reabsorbed in XF3 2, but then gets back out again in XF3 12 and is key to the plot both times?
Oh yeah, especially because he made a return appearance. :thumbsup:

And while he only had an appearance or two, I would say baby-dupe should get a listing as well. Just because.
Somebody wrote:I would still feel more comfortable having the MU-Hulk keep the listing, and Banner/HR-Hulk be the one to be split.
I would prefer to keep all of Banner's appearances in one chronology. I mean, when Tony Stark was drunk and not being Iron Man, we don't split his chronology off into a seperate listing. There's a different listing for that different Iron Man. Stark becomes Iron Man, but Stark is the character. Banner becomes the Hulk, but Banner is the character. If it's Bruce's body as the Hulk, I think it should be in one listing. Besides, all the multiple personalities he has for different Hulks are still personalities of Banner, and it's still his body.

But then, his BODY was seperated when he went to Heroes Reborn World, part went away as Bruce, part stayed behind as Hulk. So yeah, it's tricky. But when that body was split, Bruce continued to be Bruce, but a 'dupe' was created when the Hulk was left by himself. And it was eventually absorbed back into Banner, just like Madrox.
Somebody wrote:And another case here - that wasn't the first "Banner-Less Hulk". Even if we ignore the Crossroads era - when Banner was just supressed - there's the Byrne-run Bannerless/Mindless Hulk who was very different from the Bannerless/"Gravage" Hulk from IH 446-459. Not to mention a few minor incidents, such as the annual where Banner became Captain Universe, split off from the Hulk.
I'm thinking if Banner is just suppressed but still in there, leave it in Banner's chronology. If a Hulk is split off from Banner, create a new listing. Maybe with a note.

What do others think?
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