Beast in WCA@ 1

[Russ Chappell]

What's the conclusion? Thor's 'unbroken' arm is an art error/a temporary magic solution for the arm BTS that wears down before Thor gets metal brace from Stark in T 375? Or after metal brace but simply missing from the art?

As I remember it, the "conclusion" was that Thor, as a God, does not suffer the same effects from a broken arm that mortals do. Therefore, using the status of his arm to determine chronological placement is an unreliable methodology, as we can't tell from his actions whether his arm is broken or not.


watching: lost

[metaldragon]

First, the Mansion Siege takes place in A 273-277, not 278-285. The Avengers Annuals happen BEFORE the Mansion Siege, since Herc is put in a coma during the Mansion Siege, and brain damaged when he wakes up. Power Pack's visit to the mansion also has to take place before the Mansion Siege, since Herc is there.

Oh sorry! Thanks! I don't have that run of Avengers. Yes, I meant A 273-277, not 278-285.

[metaldragon]

What's the conclusion? Thor's 'unbroken' arm is an art error/a temporary magic solution for the arm BTS that wears down before Thor gets metal brace from Stark in T 375? Or after metal brace but simply missing from the art?

As I remember it, the "conclusion" was that Thor, as a God, does not suffer the same effects from a broken arm that mortals do. Therefore, using the status of his arm to determine chronological placement is an unreliable methodology, as we can't tell from his actions whether his arm is broken or not.


watching: lost

Um, that's an odd conclusion to come to when Hela clearly says: (in Thor 374) "From this day forth, the mighty Thor, warrior of Asgard, will fear to enter combat. For his bones are now as brittle as those of an old woman and when they break, they will not heal! Nor will you find respite in the arms of death, for I have cast you out!"

Earlier, same issue, when Cyclops touches Thor's broken left arm (which is sticking out somewhat oddly) Thor goes "ARGH!" and explains, "I slew one of the Marauders, but not before he had broken my arm. Suffice it to say that the bones are grinding together." at which point Cyclops & Marvel Girl rig a splint and sling for the arm.

A temporary BTS solution is a better conclusion if there is no other spot for "art error" appearances to go than that one. lol!

[Michael]

Forget about Thor for a second- Iron Man Annual 8 CANNOT take place after Avengers Annual 15. Warren still has his wings in Iron Man Annual 8 and they are clearly uninjured. But Spider-Woman II is still with Freedom Force in X-Factor 9. The story continues into X-Factor 10, where Warren is injured. So Iron Man Annual 8 HAS TO take place before Avengers Annual 15, where Spider-Woman II leaves Freedom Force.

[metaldragon]

Forget about Thor for a second- Iron Man Annual 8 CANNOT take place after Avengers Annual 15. Warren still has his wings in Iron Man Annual 8 and they are clearly uninjured. But Spider-Woman II is still with Freedom Force in X-Factor 9. The story continues into X-Factor 10, where Warren is injured. So Iron Man Annual 8 HAS TO take place before Avengers Annual 15, where Spider-Woman II leaves Freedom Force.

Indeed! That is why I posted Iron Man's listing at the beginning of this thread because there is something obviously wrong with the placement of A@ 15 & WCA@ 1. I think I actually mentioned that problem with the placement in the thread way long ago that is now in archive 62 (aka: "Message threads ending in August, 2005").

Which is why I suggested the A@ 15 - WCA@ 1 story be placed closer to the Avengers Mansion siege storyline in all the people involved in both stories' listings to accommodate the Mutant Massacre events.

The points of contention again:

Beast can only appear in WCA@ 1 if it takes place before XF 8, page 11 OR after the end of XF 11 (Mutant Massacre takes place between those points).

Thor appears in WCA@ 1 (if it takes place) during T 373 sometime between pages 4 & 7 OR after the Mutant Massacre (sometime during T 375 at the earliest? Don't have that issue.) Thor's arm is broken during the Mutant Massacre and looks fine in WCA@ 1 which suggests a before placement but there may be some unknown explanation as to how he can use it if his appearance there is placed after the Massacre.

Spider-Woman II either appears in XF 8-9 before A@ 15 OR after. Most likely: before, because she frees the Avengers in A@ 15 and is unlikely still a member of Freedom Force after that.

Iron Man cannot appear in IM@ 8 after WCA@ 1 if this takes place after the Mutant Massacre because IM@ 8 HAS to take place before the Massacre (because of X-Factor's appearance there: Angel's wings are fine) and his appearance there MUST be moved in his listing.

There may be other possible conflicts in placement of A@ 15 & WCA@ 1 in other characters listings because of these points.

[bmk88]

Michael wrote:
Forget about Thor for a second- Iron Man Annual 8 CANNOT take place after Avengers Annual 15. Warren still has his wings in Iron Man Annual 8 and they are clearly uninjured.

I'm sorry, but I can't see a connection - therer is no Angel app. in A@ 15 ?

Putting WCA@ 1 and A@ 15 well after IM@ 8 will works but the I must ask - what's the meaning of 'Official Index' for that Chronology - if it's binding then remember

Hotcharokey wrote:
According to the Official Index to the Marvel Universe #6, Iron Man appears in:

IM 211
Av Ann 15
WCA Ann 1
IM Ann 8
IM 212

Furthermore, the Beast's chronology is shown as:

XFac 4
IM Ann 8
XFac Ann 1

According to the Index, WCA Ann 1 occurs before IM Ann 8, which occurs before XFA Ann 1. Based on the Index, the Beast would have to appear in WCA Ann 1 between XFA 3 and XFA 4 because he loses his fur in XFA 3 and appears in WCA Ann 1 without fur.

so ... A@ 15 must be placed before WCA @1 which is before IM@ 8, which is before XF@ 1, and the only explanation for Spider Woman is 'second chance' (which quite well explains Cooper words at the ned of XF 9) and for Thor broken arm there might be few f.e. a a God he might suffer but in a wake of greater aim not thinking about such low obstacles as his own injuries

putting whole story during or after Mutant Massacre is possible only if we ignore 'Official Index' - so my question as I remembre there're discussion about it's role in chronology but can't remind it's conclusion - can we?

[metaldragon]

Michael wrote:
Forget about Thor for a second- Iron Man Annual 8 CANNOT take place after Avengers Annual 15. Warren still has his wings in Iron Man Annual 8 and they are clearly uninjured.

I'm sorry, but I can't see a connection - therer is no Angel app. in A@ 15 ?

Putting WCA@ 1 and A@ 15 well after IM@ 8 will works but the I must ask - what's the meaning of 'Official Index' for that Chronology - if it's binding then remember

Hotcharokey wrote:
According to the Official Index to the Marvel Universe #6, Iron Man appears in:

IM 211
Av Ann 15
WCA Ann 1
IM Ann 8
IM 212

Furthermore, the Beast's chronology is shown as:

XFac 4
IM Ann 8
XFac Ann 1

According to the Index, WCA Ann 1 occurs before IM Ann 8, which occurs before XFA Ann 1. Based on the Index, the Beast would have to appear in WCA Ann 1 between XFA 3 and XFA 4 because he loses his fur in XFA 3 and appears in WCA Ann 1 without fur.

so ... A@ 15 must be placed before WCA @1 which is before IM@ 8, which is before XF@ 1, and the only explanation for Spider Woman is 'second chance' (which quite well explains Cooper words at the ned of XF 9) and for Thor broken arm there might be few f.e. a a God he might suffer but in a wake of greater aim not thinking about such low obstacles as his own injuries

putting whole story during or after Mutant Massacre is possible only if we ignore 'Official Index' - so my question as I remembre there're discussion about it's role in chronology but can't remind it's conclusion - can we?

You've missed one other point: Beast's apperance in WCA@ 1. Currently it's sitting after XF 12 in his listing which places it after the Mutant Massacre. Comparing that to Iron Man's placement which has it before the Massacre was the whole key to why I brought this up the first time, and why I've brought it up again. Mix in the apperances of Spider-Woman II and Thor and their ongoing plots during that period and you've got an interesting tangle.

Erm... true, Angel doesn't appear in A@ 15 BUT Beast does appear (alongside Iron Man) in WCA@ 1. A@ 15 is the first half of the story that concludes in WCA@ 1. Beast appears alongside Angel (as well as the rest of X-Factor) and Iron Man in IM@ 8. If Beast's appearance alongside Iron Man in WCA@1 takes place after the Mutant Massacre, and IM@ 8 takes place after WCA@ 1 according to Iron Man... Therefore Angel must appear in IM@ 8 after the Mutant Massacre. Which is not possible because he is in the hospital with destroyed wings by that point. Conclusion: Something is wrong!

[bmk88]

rethinking this I guess the clue to solve the problem might be Spider-Woman chrono which isn't my strong point as it's far behind me field of interest - whats her story after XF 9 & A@ 15 (at chrono it's IM 214, AWC 84 (14:1)-FB, AWC 84 (14:3 - 14:6)-FB, PPTSS 125, PPTSS 126, AWC 70 etc - but I don't have those at home and read only PPTSS 'long time ago') - is there any explanation what was she doing after encounter with X-terminators, how she left Freedom Force, joined Avengers etc?

[bmk88]

ok,
i've gone to visit my friend who has all Avengers issues and I've spent sunny Sunday digging through dusted boxes fulled with old issues ...

what I've found there is following

IM 214 Val Cooper send Iron Man after fugitive Spider-Woman (seems directly from A@ 15 - 'she disappeared after this') but meanwhile Avengers tracted Quicksilver who 'fabricated stories of their crimes' and were clean of charges, Iron Man helps her against Wrecking Crew and makes to meet with Val who offers her chance to clear her name in job as undercover agent under Mike Clemson [BTW I don't see that appearence in Quicksilver chrono ?]
AWC 84-Fb shows quite the same (Spider-Woman running from Guardsman and then at Cooper's office meeting Clemson)
AWC 70 Spider-Woman meets Avengers and starts to cooperate with them (about some 'Pacific Overlords') (after Quicksilver leaft Avengers - at that issue)

and as far as I remember PPTSS 125-126 are stories where she appears alone and co-fight Wrecking Crew with Spidey (after Iron Man helped her against them in IM 214) and there are no significant feedbacks too, Clemson app. as her boss there too

and now - as for me - it's quite obvious that there is no place for her appearences at Freedom Force after her acts in A@ 15, and it seems that index order must be quite wrong ...

so - metaldragon has a point - it's the real mess !!!
mostly about X-Factor & Iron Man app. in IM@ 8 - which must be before Mutant Massacre but due to Stark chrono is after A@ 15 & WCA@ 1 and for X-Factor before XF@ 1 so before XF 5, but then how Spider-Woman can app. in XF 9 as Freedom Force member while she's on the run ?

I didn't checked earlier issue and won't have time for this in the week - but is that possible to put IM@ 8 a little bit earlier in his chrono ?

[metaldragon]

ok,
i've gone to visit my friend who has all Avengers issues and I've spent sunny Sunday digging through dusted boxes fulled with old issues ...

what I've found there is following

IM 214 Val Cooper send Iron Man after fugitive Spider-Woman (seems directly from A@ 15 - 'she disappeared after this') but meanwhile Avengers tracted Quicksilver who 'fabricated stories of their crimes' and were clean of charges, Iron Man helps her against Wrecking Crew and makes to meet with Val who offers her chance to clear her name in job as undercover agent under Mike Clemson [BTW I don't see that appearence in Quicksilver chrono ?]
AWC 84-Fb shows quite the same (Spider-Woman running from Guardsman and then at Cooper's office meeting Clemson)
AWC 70 Spider-Woman meets Avengers and starts to cooperate with them (about some 'Pacific Overlords') (after Quicksilver leaft Avengers - at that issue)

and as far as I remember PPTSS 125-126 are stories where she appears alone and co-fight Wrecking Crew with Spidey (after Iron Man helped her against them in IM 214) and there are no significant feedbacks too, Clemson app. as her boss there too

and now - as for me - it's quite obvious that there is no place for her appearences at Freedom Force after her acts in A@ 15, and it seems that index order must be quite wrong ...

so - metaldragon has a point - it's the real mess !!!
mostly about X-Factor & Iron Man app. in IM@ 8 - which must be before Mutant Massacre but due to Stark chrono is after A@ 15 & WCA@ 1 and for X-Factor before XF@ 1 so before XF 5, but then how Spider-Woman can app. in XF 9 as Freedom Force member while she's on the run ?

I didn't checked earlier issue and won't have time for this in the week - but is that possible to put IM@ 8 a little bit earlier in his chrono ?

Is this possible/workable for Iron Man:

IM 209
FF 293 [She-Hulk appears in WCA@ 1 between FF 295 & 296 in her listing which matches Mr. Fantastic's listing (with his apperance in IM@ 8 placed between WCA@ 1 & FF 296)]
IM@ 8 [X-Factor & Mr. Fantastic appear]
WCA2 12
WCA2 13 [Tigra mentions in WCA@ 1 (with a direct footnote reference to this issue) that this happened "just the other day"]
IM 210
IM 211
[moved]
[moved]
[moved]
IM 212
IM 213
M/SH3 12/3
A@ 15 [Avengers vs Freedom Force]
WCA@ 1 [Freedom Force, Avengers (including Iron Man, Thor & Beast) all appear here]
WCA2 14
WCA2 15
IM 214 [Spider-Woman II appears here]
T 375 [Iron Man appears here alongside Thor which takes place just after the Mutant Massacre]

This places IM@ 8 earlier while still keeping it from conflicting with Mr. Fantastic's listing for it and A@ 15 & WCA@ 1 are still between WCA2 13 & 14 but closer to T 375 for Thor's post-Mutant Massacre appearance. (Mr. Fantastic's placement of WCA@ 1 will have to move to reflect this now.)

Since I don't own any of these issues of Iron Man (or West Coast Avengers for that matter) can anyone who does see any major problems?

[metaldragon]

Hey Paul, have you figured out the calendar details around these issues yet? How's this knot look from your broader perspective?

[Paul Bourcier]

metaldragon wrote:

Hey Paul, have you figured out the calendar details around these issues yet? How's this knot look from your broader perspective?

Like a knot. A number of years ago, I put together some rough notes on this time period and concluded that not all the details fit. I never did get back to sorting this out, so I'm glad you folks are devoting some attention to this.

[metaldragon]

OK, a few things we know:

In the Avengers vs Gyrich storyline, Freedom Force must appear there right after the Mutant Massacre because of Spider-Woman's actions. This means that Beast & Thor who were involved in the Massacre must appear there right after it because there is no spot for Beat to appear during. For Beast the soonest he could appear in WCA@ 1 is between XF 11 & 12. Problems: Thor's arm is broken by that point. Solutions: Art error? Temporary magic solution? What happens in Thor 375 so we can narrow down his appearance? How does this affect Iron Man's appearance in Thor 375?

The Avengers vs Gyrich storyline must come before the Avengers Mansion Siege storyline because Hercules is badly injured, ends up in a coma and wakes later with obvious brain damage. Problems: How soon after the Mutant Massacre storyline does it happen? Power Pack must appear before the Siege and after Mutant Massacre because they visit an undamaged Mansion and Hercules also appears there OK. The Power Pack issue takes place the morning after the Massacre. Does Hercules appear here before or after he appears in Power Pack?

We still need a broader view of the Marvel Universe to see how this affects the rest of the Avengers chronologies.

[Somebody]

IIRC, Tony Stark (not as Iron Man) appears in T 375 to make a metal cast for Thor's arm, which becomes the first part of Thor's armour.

[Col_Fury]

Sorry it took me so long to get around to this.

place the whole storyline before XF 8 (during T 373) and believe that Spider-Woman II is given a stay of sentence for freeing the Avengers. In XF 9 Val Cooper says "Silence! Not another word! There is no excuse! One more mistake and you're off the payroll! Now get out!" It's possible Spider-Woman II was given a second chance to redeem herself with the capture Rusty Collins mission and since they blew it she took off to show up next in IM 214.

Really, that’s the only solution I’m seeing that works for everyone without contradicting too many things. There’s even a line of dialogue we can use from X-Factor, as you said.

However, I’m not seeing how Spider-Woman can be BTS in WCA@ 1, so that should be removed from her listing.

Some suggestions:

AVALANCHE/DOMINIC PETROS
…
UX 206
*A@ 15
*WCA@ 1
XF 8
XF 9
XF 10
CA 333
…

BLOB/FRED J. DUKES
…
UX 206
*A@ 15
*WCA@ 1
XF 8
XF 9
XF 10
CA 333
…

COOPER, DR. VALERIE
…
S-W2 (18:1)-FB
*A@ 15
XF 9
IM 214
…

DESTINY II/IRENE ADLER
…
AWC 84-FB
*A@ 15
*WCA@ 1
XF 8
XF 9
XF 10
CA 334
…

MYSTIQUE/etc
…
AWC 84-FB
*A@ 15
*WCA@ 1
XF 8
XF 9
XF 10
CA 334
…

PYRO/ALLERDYCE "JOHNNY" ST. JOHN
…
UX 206
*A@ 15
*WCA@ 1
XF 8
XF 9
XF 10
CA 333
…

SPIDER-WOMAN II/JULIA CARPENTER
…
UX 206
*A@ 15 (delete WCA@ 1-BTS)
XF 8
XF 9
IM 214
…

SPIRAL
…
UX 206
*A@ 15
*WCA@ 1
XF 8
UX 209
XCAL 64-FB
NM@ 2
…

And of course, the Beast:
…
XF 3
*WCA@ 1
XF 4
…