Beast in WCA@ 1

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metaldragon
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Beast in WCA@ 1

Post by metaldragon »

A long time ago, shortly after I first joined I brought up the placement of WCA@ 1 in Beast's chronology. I didn't explain why very well at the time but it cannot go where it is currently placed. The problem is Beast, Thor and Freedom Force all appear in the Mutant Massacre crossover (XF 9-11, UX 210-213, PP 27, T 373-374) and in the A@15-WCA@ 1 storyline.

For Freedom Force (Mystique, Avalanche, Blob, Destiny, Pyro, Spiral, & Spider-Woman II), they appear in:
UX 206 [all except Mystique & Destiny appear here vs the X-Men]
XF 8 [battle X-Factor over Rusty Collins, Spiral leaves to kidnap Rachel Summers in UX 209]
XF 9 [continue to battle X-Factor over Rusty Collins, then battle "X-terminators" over him in sewers, soon after have meeting with Val Cooper]
XF 10 [leak info on Angel's connection with X-Factor to Trish Tilby]
A@15 [made to hunt down the Avengers by Gyrich, Spider-Woman II helps Avengers escape]
WCA@1 [Gyrich dismisses them, Spider-Woman II not seen or mentioned (Avengers contact Thor & Beast looking for traitor)]

For Beast (& X-Factor):
XF 8 [battle Freedom Force over Rusty Collins]
XF 9 [continue to battle Freedom Force over Rusty Collins]
UX 210 [sees Magneto enter Hellfire Club]
XF 9 [continue to battle Freedom Force over Rusty Collins, enter Morlock tunnels to search for Artie]
XF 10 [Mutant Massacre...]
UX 211-BTS
XF 10
PP 27
XF 11 [Mutant Massacre conclusion]
XF 12 [encounters Boom Boom]
WCA@ 1 [takes telephone call from Wasp checking if he's the traitor/will help them find traitor while Thor is recruited by Hercules]
MEPHV. 2
XF 13

For Thor:
T 373 [Thor returns to Earth and is hit with Hela's brittle bones spell]
DD 233
E2 12
WCA@ 1 [Avengers hunted by Gyrich & Freedom Force, Thor joins up with the Avengers, Wasp calls Beast]
T 373 [Thor visits Sapristi family, learns of the Mutant Massacre from frog and catches Marauders in process of nailing Angel to a wall (continued from end of XF 10)]
T 374 [Thor's arm broken fighting Marauders (until sometime after T 379), meets X-Factor, sets fire to Morlock tunnels after Hela informs him of the effects of her spell]
T 375
A 276

Now, Thor cannot appear in WCA@ 1 after the Mutant Massacre because his arm is normal and unbroken throughout this issue so he must appear here before it's broken in the Mutant Massacre. This means Beast's appearance in WCA@ 1 must take place before the Mutant Massacre as well. Problem is, Freedom Force appears in WCA@ 1 AFTER they fight Beast in the moments leading up to the Mutant Massacre in their listings. This means the storylines for Freedom Force vs Avengers and the Mutant Massacre must take place around the same time...

Now, to give a larger framework for what's going on around this time let's look at Iron Man's chronology:
H2 323 [WCA@ 1 references H2 324 as taking place recently: Hulk cannot be the traitor because he's shown chained up that issue]
WCA2 11
DD 233
IM 209
FF 293 [She-Hulk appears in WCA@ 1 between FF 295 & 296 in her listing which matches Mr. Fantastic's listing (with his apperance in IM@ 8 placed between WCA@ 1 & FF 296)]
WCA2 12
WCA2 13 [Tigra mentions in WCA@ 1 (with a direct footnote reference to this issue) that this happened "just the other day"]
IM 210
IM 211
A@ 15 [Avengers vs Freedom Force]
WCA@ 1 [Freedom Force, Avengers (including Iron Man, Thor & Beast) all appear here]
IM@ 8 [X-Factor appears here with Iron Man (& Mr. Fantastic) before the Mutant Massacre (between XF 4 & XF@ 1 according to Beast's listing!)]
IM 212
IM 213
M/SH3 12/3
WCA2 14
WCA2 15
IM 214 [Spider-Woman II appears here]
T 375 [Iron Man appears here alongside Thor which takes place just after the Mutant Massacre]


This further suggests that Freedom Force's appearances in these two storylines may be backwards. I believe the proper chronological placement for them should be:
UX 206 [for all but Mystique & Destiny]
A@ 15
WCA@ 1 [all but Spider-Woman who is listed BTS]
XF 8
XF 9
XF 10

This also fixes Beast's placement which should look something like:
XF 4
IM@ 8
WCA@ 1
XF@ 1
XF 5

The reason I've switched IM@ 8 and WCA@ 1 is overall storyline. Why would Iron Man be allowed to visit Project Pegasus after being chased chased down by Gyrich and Freedom Force? That really doesn't make any sense to me. (This change will affect Beast, Iron Man and Mr. Fantastic.)
Last edited by metaldragon on Thu Jul 08, 2010 6:42 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Beast in WCA@ 1

Post by Russ Chappell »

metaldragon wrote:A long time ago,
Indeed. This one's been on the books long enough. Unless someone disputes this pretty quickly, I'm going to lock this thread and make the changes based on Metaldragon's suggestions. These issues are discussed in much greater detail in Archives 54 and 62.


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Re: Beast in WCA@ 1

Post by metaldragon »

I just realized, if WCA@ 1 takes place during T 373 for Thor (only a day before the Mutant Massacre) it's possible it may have to go closer to XF 8 for Beast.

Somewhere between:
XF 7
ASM 282
M/FAN 32
XF 8

Possibly between ASM 282 and M/FAN 32.
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Re: Beast in WCA@ 1

Post by metaldragon »

Finally managed figure out how to read the archives on my Mac. Since I don't own A@ 15, does Spider-Woman II get caught freeing the Avengers and go on the run there? Why does Gyrich tell Mystique he'll give them full credit for capturing the Avengers in WCA@ 1? I thought he'd be ready to have all their heads for Spider-Woman's actions instead of just telling them to leave. Why does Spider-Woman have a BTS listing for WCA@ 1? She's not mentioned there (and she doesn't appear on-panel either of course).

If Spider-Woman appears in the A@15 story after the last panel of XF 9 (where she's shown as a member of Freedom Force at the meeting with Val Cooper) then Beast has to return to the X-Factor building to take a shower which is interrupted by Wasp's phone call where he says "But if you really need me--!" in WCA@ 1 between XF 9 & 10 (which contradicts the opening pages of 10) or sometime during XF 10 (in the middle of the Massacre?!?) and then return to search for Artie and fight Marauders...? This is REALLY messy.

That still means the rest of Freedom Force would have to appear in the two Avengers annuals between their appearances in XF 9 & 10 for it to come even close to working with Thor's timeline. Ow. My brain hurts.

[I have an alternate theory of Spider-Woman's appearances which depends on the events of A@ 15.]
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Re: Beast in WCA@ 1

Post by Enda80 »

As I recall in A@15, she caught a Guardsman out of armor and put a stun device in his face, threatening to use it. The Guardsman should have reported this to Vault personnel, as he saw her fully.

Kind of hard to see how she could wiggle out of that, unless she later claimed mind control or possession or mind tampering (I can just imagine them going through their files on Mesmero, Mastermind, Headlock [did his first appearance indicate nobody had ever heard of him before?], the Overmind, the Hate-Monger, Psycho-Man, the Scarlet Beetle, Null the Living Darkness, the Corruptor, Mister Fear, the Bi-Beast, the Faceless One, Winkler's device, etc. during a hearing.)
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Re: Beast in WCA@ 1

Post by Hotcharokey 2.0 »

According to the Official Index to the Marvel Universe #6, Iron Man appears in:

IM 211
Av Ann 15
WCA Ann 1
IM Ann 8
IM 212

Furthermore, the Beast's chronology is shown as:

XFac 4
IM Ann 8
XFac Ann 1

According to the Index, WCA Ann 1 occurs before IM Ann 8, which occurs before XFA Ann 1. Based on the Index, the Beast would have to appear in WCA Ann 1 between XFA 3 and XFA 4 because he loses his fur in XFA 3 and appears in WCA Ann 1 without fur.
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Re: Beast in WCA@ 1

Post by bmk88 »

metaldragon wrote:
Since I don't own A@ 15, does Spider-Woman II get caught freeing the Avengers and go on the run there?
I've happened to got it. sorry for delay, but has no time to check it earlier

it's not shown if she'd got caught. but she was well seen (by many guards) in the floodlight and one reporting on her infiltraited The Facility. She also met a Guardsman out of armor, gained information from him and struck him unconcious. later she fight other guardsmen.
At the she's seen hiding and watching Avengers escaping and hoping she hadn't screwed her life complety being sure she doesnt have much future with Freedom Force and wondering what it takes to be Avenger. And nothing more about her fate in that issue. No running or so ...

... so any explanation might be might (f.e. another chance with FF or something explaining why she's later in XF 9 with them)

Hope it helps
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Re: Beast in WCA@ 1

Post by metaldragon »

Ah! OK, so she was caught in the act. Torpedoes my thought. So... unless Beast takes a break from the Massacre during XF 10 to return to the X-Factor headquarters and take a shower, I don't see how he can take Wasp's call. And his offer to help her out when the Morlocks are being massacred, Artie is missing down there somewhere, and rest of his team is in danger... *brickwall*
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Re: Beast in WCA@ 1

Post by metaldragon »

This all comes down to Thor's broken arm and how he can appear in WCA@ 1 without any kind of splint and be using his left arm like nothing is wrong with it or it has to take place before he goes into the Morlock tunnels or if Spider-Woman is still a member of Freedom Force after she is caught releasing the Avengers from prison. On page 34 of WCA@ 1 Thor thinks to himself: "The vast changes in the Realm Eternal -- the ascension of Balder to the Golden Throne -- and most of all -- -- the damage to my face which this beard can barely hide away! I am the one who doth revel in the gathering of Avengers -- yet this is NOT the time I would have chosen for't!" He doesn't think about his brittle bones or broken arm. He's shown earlier flying with hammer in right hand while carrying Hercules with his left. This implies he appears here before the Massacre.

But, if A@ 15 is the very last moment that Spider-Woman II is a member of Freedom Force, the events of the Avengers Annuals storyline MUST either take place during or after the Mutant Massacre. The last place Spider-Woman is shown as a member of Freedom Force before A@ 15 is the last page of XF 9. This is shown to take place "very shortly" after their encounter with the "X-terminators" around the time Cyclops, Beast, and Iceman hear the screams of the Morlocks being attacked by the Marauders (but probably a bit later in reality because I'm sure it would take a while for them to get from New York to the Pentagon which would place their meeting with Val Cooper smack in the middle of the Massacre). This gets really messy. It's impossible for the Avengers Annuals storyline to take place DURING the Mutant Massacre because there is no moment for Beast to answer a phone call from the Wasp while he's taking a shower in the X-Factor complex before Thor cleanses the Morlock tunnels with lightning and fire in XF 11. But that places it after Thor's arm is broken.

The only way to resolve this is to either write off Thor's arm as an art error and place his appearance in WCA@ 1 after T 374 or place the whole storyline before XF 8 (during T 373) and believe that Spider-Woman II is given a stay of sentence for freeing the Avengers. In XF 9 Val Cooper says "Silence! Not another word! There is no excuse! One more mistake and you're off the payroll! Now get out!" It's possible Spider-Woman II was given a second chance to redeem herself with the capture Rusty Collins mission and since they blew it she took off to show up next in IM 214. Does this work?
Last edited by metaldragon on Sat Jun 20, 2009 8:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beast in WCA@ 1

Post by Somebody »

However, Thor is also listed in A 278-285 after he breaks his arm, despite showing no sign of a broken arm there.
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Re: Beast in WCA@ 1

Post by Russ Chappell »

Yes, discussed in great extent, in the archives I mentioned earlier. I believe the conclusion was that, as a God, Thor's broken arm may have caused him great pain, but it did not incapacitate him. I think the broken-arm argument is a non-starter here.


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Re: Beast in WCA@ 1

Post by metaldragon »

Somebody wrote:However, Thor is also listed in A 278-285 after he breaks his arm, despite showing no sign of a broken arm there.
Administrator wrote:Yes, discussed in great extent, in the archives I mentioned earlier. I believe the conclusion was that, as a God, Thor's broken arm may have caused him great pain, but it did not incapacitate him. I think the broken-arm argument is a non-starter here.
What's the conclusion? Thor's 'unbroken' arm is an art error/a temporary magic solution for the arm BTS that wears down before Thor gets metal brace from Stark in T 375? Or after metal brace but simply missing from the art?

If that's the case, how soon does the Avengers Annuals storyline happen in relation to the Occupation of the Avengers Mansion that happens in A 278-285 on the grand scale? Does it mean the A@ 15 & WCA@ 1 story has to be moved closer to A 278 in the rest of the Avengers appearances to accommodate Thor's appearances shortly after the Mutant Massacre due to how closely so many characters are affected by all 3 (Mutant Massacre, Avengers vs Gyrich Annuals, & Villians taking over the Avengers Mansion) major storylines? Would the Annuals events take place before or after Power Pack visits the Mansion which, I believe takes place the next morning after the night of the Mutant Massacre?
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Re: Beast in WCA@ 1

Post by Michael »

However, Thor is also listed in A 278-285 after he breaks his arm, despite showing no sign of a broken arm there.
But that was after he had his battle armor, which somehow compensated.
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Re: Beast in WCA@ 1

Post by Michael »

If that's the case, how soon does the Avengers Annuals storyline happen in relation to the Occupation of the Avengers Mansion that happens in A 278-285 on the grand scale? Does it mean the A@ 15 & WCA@ 1 story has to be moved closer to A 278 in the rest of the Avengers appearances to accommodate Thor's appearances shortly after the Mutant Massacre due to how closely so many characters are affected by all 3 (Mutant Massacre, Avengers vs Gyrich Annuals, & Villians taking over the Avengers Mansion) major storylines? Would the Annuals events take place before or after Power Pack visits the Mansion which, I believe takes place the next morning after the night of the Mutant Massacre?
First, the Mansion Siege takes place in A 273-277, not 278-285. The Avengers Annuals happen BEFORE the Mansion Siege, since Herc is put in a coma during the Mansion Siege, and brain damaged when he wakes up. Power Pack's visit to the mansion also has to take place before the Mansion Siege, since Herc is there.
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Re: Beast in WCA@ 1

Post by metaldragon »

Michael wrote:
However, Thor is also listed in A 278-285 after he breaks his arm, despite showing no sign of a broken arm there.
But that was after he had his battle armor, which somehow compensated.
Yes, he dons his battle armor in T 378 which compensates for his broken bones. Thor: (page 20, panel 1) "Forged in the furnaces of Pittsburgh, graven with the runes of my father, this armor has become my body!"
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