Wolverine Vol2 7

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

Moderators: Col_Fury, michel, Arthur, Somebody, StrayLamb

Ocean Doot
Big Bad
Big Bad
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:36 pm

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Ocean Doot »

Somebody wrote:Unfortunately, he's kinda right if you take the armour's appearances as sacrosanct, even if it IS a Bendis-level continuity trainwreck that requires the cross-referencing of umpteen comics.

The basic problem's what he said (in a post I didn't actually notice, Doot - the reason you shouldn't post twice in a row!) - Psylocke appears in UX@ 12 [Evolutionary War pt 7] in her armour. Hulk appears in A@ 17 [Evolutionary War pt 11], which is led directly into by H2 350 and which in turn leads straight into H2 351. The Hulk/Banner night/day status quo is only reestablished at the end of H2 352 (#351-352 are mostly a FB story explaining how Banner got locked away, just as the spell finally wears off). Hulk changes to Banner in the day as a plot point in the Wolverine issues, and he's on his way to Madripoor with that status quo by the time Tyger is out of the armour in W2 7.
Fascinating. You almost made me forget that I already said this EIGHT TIMES!!!



Somebody wrote: Basically, Doot's way involves running the story as:

W2 6
W2 7 (3:1-5:3)
W2 7 (9:3-11:3)
W2 7 (12:5-14:6)
[break]
W2 7 (1-2)
W2 7 (5:4-9:2)
W2 7 (11:4-12:4)
W2 7 (15-22)
W2 8

That is, ripping the issue to shreds as well as punching a gap in it.
Yeah, that's the stuff!

The thing is, it's not as complicated as it looks, really.

Well, I guess it is. But again, it's just 1.) punch a gap in Wolverine 7, and 2.) shove all the Hulk scene into the latter part of the gap.



Somebody wrote: Now, firstly, is there any particular reason that UX@ 12 must go after UX 232-234, as it's currently?

So Doot, tell me why that's impossible :-P
Because in X-Men 232, we see Maddie trying to design a new symbol for the X-Men. She is all alone, talking to herself, and at the end she comes up with an eight-pointed-star design. She says it "has potential," and it is clear she hasn't shown this design to the X-Men yet.

In X-Men Annual 12, at the end of the Savage Land adventure, the X-Men leave behind a sigil with their eight-pointed star on it.

They can't leave the symbol behind before Maddie designs it.

Quod erat something something ...




Somebody wrote: [Oh, and the reference is to "last month", not "a month ago", Doot. I'm going to do a Paul B, and say that W2 5 takes place at the end of a month, and W2 8 is at the start of the following month. :)]
Good point, good point. Still you have to admit, the dialogue makes a nice dovetail with the "gap in issue 7" theory!

Edit: I don't know what I am doing wrong with the quote function. Is the above just impossible to read?
Last edited by Somebody on Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: You need to go to http://www.chronologyproject.com/phpbb2/ucp.php?i=prefs&mode=post and change "Enable BBCode by default" to "yes". I'll reply after I've had some sleep.
User avatar
Somebody
Director
Director
Posts: 3389
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:48 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Somebody »

Ocean Doot wrote:
Somebody wrote:Unfortunately, he's kinda right if you take the armour's appearances as sacrosanct, even if it IS a Bendis-level continuity trainwreck that requires the cross-referencing of umpteen comics.

The basic problem's what he said (in a post I didn't actually notice, Doot - the reason you shouldn't post twice in a row!) - Psylocke appears in UX@ 12 [Evolutionary War pt 7] in her armour. Hulk appears in A@ 17 [Evolutionary War pt 11], which is led directly into by H2 350 and which in turn leads straight into H2 351. The Hulk/Banner night/day status quo is only reestablished at the end of H2 352 (#351-352 are mostly a FB story explaining how Banner got locked away, just as the spell finally wears off). Hulk changes to Banner in the day as a plot point in the Wolverine issues, and he's on his way to Madripoor with that status quo by the time Tyger is out of the armour in W2 7.
Fascinating. You almost made me forget that I already said this EIGHT TIMES!!!
C'mon, it wasn't anywhere NEAR eight. If you hadn't done the double-post to start with, it wouldn't even have been twice :p
Ocean Doot wrote:
Somebody wrote:Basically, Doot's way involves running the story as:

W2 6
W2 7 (3:1-5:3)
W2 7 (9:3-11:3)
W2 7 (12:5-14:6)
[break]
W2 7 (1-2)
W2 7 (5:4-9:2)
W2 7 (11:4-12:4)
W2 7 (15-22)
W2 8

That is, ripping the issue to shreds as well as punching a gap in it.
Yeah, that's the stuff!

The thing is, it's not as complicated as it looks, really.

Well, I guess it is. But again, it's just 1.) punch a gap in Wolverine 7, and 2.) shove all the Hulk scene into the latter part of the gap.
It's still reordering pages unnecessarily, which I don't like - and which I've been slapped down for suggesting before :).
Ocean Doot wrote:
Somebody wrote:Now, firstly, is there any particular reason that UX@ 12 must go after UX 232-234, as it's currently?

So Doot, tell me why that's impossible :-P
Because in X-Men 232, we see Maddie trying to design a new symbol for the X-Men. She is all alone, talking to herself, and at the end she comes up with an eight-pointed-star design. She says it "has potential," and it is clear she hasn't shown this design to the X-Men yet.

In X-Men Annual 12, at the end of the Savage Land adventure, the X-Men leave behind a sigil with their eight-pointed star on it.

They can't leave the symbol behind before Maddie designs it.

Quod erat something something ...
I'm glad you didn't finish that, since you didn't demonstrate the impossibility :p. Because, after looking at UX 232 & UX@ 12 again...

UX 232 (2-11)
UX@ 12
H2 350
A@ 17
H2 351-352
W2 4-8
UX 232 (12-22)
UX 233-234

[Page 1 of UX 232 is a set of FBs]

Pull the front half of UX 232 back to its' original position, and pull UX@ 12 back with it. We don't see Psylocke (or, indeed, any of the X-Men) until the scene break, and Madelyne's note apparently doesn't specify WHAT the mission they're away on is. As scene breaks go, there's a lot more margin in UX 232 than there is in W2 7 to stick an unplanned gap in :).
Ocean Doot wrote:
Somebody wrote:[Oh, and the reference is to "last month", not "a month ago", Doot. I'm going to do a Paul B, and say that W2 5 takes place at the end of a month, and W2 8 is at the start of the following month. :)]
Good point, good point. Still you have to admit, the dialogue makes a nice dovetail with the "gap in issue 7" theory!
Only under very poor disco lighting :).
Ocean Doot wrote:Edit: I don't know what I am doing wrong with the quote function. Is the above just impossible to read?
You need to go to ucp.php?i=prefs&mode=post and change "Enable BBCode by default" to "yes".

Or, failing that, untick "Disable BBCode" every time you want to quote/italicise/etc.
Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Michael »

Is there any reason Landau,Luckman and Lake couldn't have just made an extra set of armor for Betsy in case one was damaged and Jessan wore the spare set?
Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Michael »

You can't split up the first 11 pages of X-Men 232 and say that they took place before X-Men Annual 12 and say that the last 11 pages took place after X-Men Annual 12. Here's why- on page 11 Maddie sees Jean with the Scott on the computer and hits the computer. The computer explodes and Maddie is rendered unconscious and bleeding. In X-Men 233-234, we see her unconscious and bleeding, and she has the dream sequence in which she is transformed into the Goblin Queen. At the end of issue 234, as the X-Men get back from the Brood mission, she still lies there "transfigured by a dream that's fast on its way to becoming reality".
Ocean Doot
Big Bad
Big Bad
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:36 pm

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Ocean Doot »

Somebody wrote: C'mon, it wasn't anywhere NEAR eight. If you hadn't done the double-post to start with, it wouldn't even have been twice :p
I'm counting the times I said it the last time this came up. You ignored it then, too!

Somebody wrote:Pull the front half of UX 232 back to its' original position, and pull UX@ 12 back with it. We don't see Psylocke (or, indeed, any of the X-Men) until the scene break, and Madelyne's note apparently doesn't specify WHAT the mission they're away on is. As scene breaks go, there's a lot more margin in UX 232 than there is in W2 7 to stick an unplanned gap in :).
There really, really isn't. Madelyne arrives home, says the X-Men are on a mission. She works on designing the eight-pointed-star symbol. Over the course of issues 232 and 233 and 234, he falls unconscious, goes into a dream.

Then, as Michael says, she is "still in the dream" when the X-Men arrive home. Look at the last page of issue 234, they arrive home talking specifically about the Brood mission while Madelyne lies unconscious, still wearing the same outfit she wore during the scene in 232. The stuff with Madelyne is an unbroken sequence, and its ending coincides with the ending of the Brood saga.

As for W2 7, the page reordering that I suggest (and which you were so awesome as to delineate page by page -- that rocked!) does not distort any individual character's chronology. All the Hulk pages still happen in sequence; all the pages featuring Wolverine and his supporting cast happen in sequence.

I don't see why that is more problematic than -- for example -- suggesting that when that giant Terminus robot in X-Men Annual #12 slams Psylocke and Rogue and they fly through the air for like a mile, then hit the ground hard but both survive just fine, Psylocke wasn't wearing that armor that the artist has drawn her wearing. :)

Somebody wrote: I'm glad you didn't finish that, since you didn't demonstrate the impossibility :p.
Sorry, I assumed you had read ALL of UX 232-234, not just up to the first scene break. :twisted:
Ocean Doot
Big Bad
Big Bad
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:36 pm

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Ocean Doot »

Michael wrote:Is there any reason Landau,Luckman and Lake couldn't have just made an extra set of armor for Betsy in case one was damaged and Jessan wore the spare set?
That's not a bad idea. Sabretooth does damage Psylocke's armor in UX 243. Maybe the armor in W2 5-7 is replacement armor because of that incident?

That pushes those Wolverine issue way forward ...

BTW, Somebody, thanks for the tip on the Quote function, and for fixing my older post! Also, please note that the existence of this post does not negate the existence of the one just above it. Thanks again! :)
User avatar
Col_Fury
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 7754
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: on a Helicarrier, above Illinois
Contact:

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Col_Fury »

Without going back and reading the comics in question, I should add there's a precedent for taking subplots out of strict page-by-page order. We've done it before with Cable & X-Force mid-90s comics with Deadpool & Domino subplots(if I remember right).

'Meanwhile' doesn't always mean 'somewhere else at the same time' in comics, and that doesn't always relegate something to a flashback. Both plots are happening 'now' when we see them, but not nessecarily at the same time...

With that in mind, I'm not opposed to cutting the Hulk scenes loose from the Wolverine scenes and sticking them where they need to go.
-Daron Jensen
Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Michael »

Yes, but in those cases there was no other way to make the stories work. In this case, all the stories make sense as published if we assume that Wolverine 5-7 takes place shortly after Betsy's armor was damaged in X-Men 243 and the armor was intended as a replacement. Is there any reason the issues can't take place shortly after Logan's appearances in X-Men 243 and X-Factor 39?
User avatar
Russ Chappell
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 5669
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 5:40 pm
Location: Tuscaloosa, AL
Contact:

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Russ Chappell »

Michael wrote:Is there any reason the issues can't take place shortly after Logan's appearances in X-Men 243 and X-Factor 39?
Um, yes, there is a reason. Marvel (via the most recent Official Index) says that they take place somewhere else.

You have to show that the Index MUST be wrong.


watching: house
I can't promise you that things will improve, if we make changes;
I can promise you that they won't improve, if we don't.

Image
Adventures in the Marvelous Zone! A Girl's View of the Marvel Universe
Ocean Doot
Big Bad
Big Bad
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:36 pm

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Ocean Doot »

Col_Fury wrote: With that in mind, I'm not opposed to cutting the Hulk scenes loose from the Wolverine scenes and sticking them where they need to go.
Yeah! Thassi'm talkin' 'bout!
User avatar
Somebody
Director
Director
Posts: 3389
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:48 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Somebody »

Leaving the specifics aside for the moment (since I can't be bothered to pull out all these issues AGAIN in short order - I'll just say that, yeah, I saw the end of UX 244, but I'm prepared to say that Maddie made a habit of knocking herself out...), and just going for the thing Russ just brought up (which I knew about, but...)
Russ Chappell wrote:
Michael wrote:Is there any reason the issues can't take place shortly after Logan's appearances in X-Men 243 and X-Factor 39?
Um, yes, there is a reason. Marvel (via the most recent Official Index) says that they take place somewhere else.

You have to show that the Index MUST be wrong.
Thing is though, that's both a very, very high standard of proof and ever so-slightly arbitrary - I can go beat-by-beat through W2 7 and show there's no significant gap there (and ESPECIALLY not between pages 14 and 15, where the gap in the Wolverine scenes is apparently, implicitly, taken) in a similar way to you pointing out in the Cap/Falcon thread that there's no significant gap between CA 138 and 139. But then, you can say that "well, they knew that and ripped it apart anyway", and/or one of the Indicistas who post or lurk here can say the same thing/confirm that.

In other words, IS there any way to "show that the Index MUST be wrong"?
Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Michael »

Somebody wrote:Leaving the specifics aside for the moment (since I can't be bothered to pull out all these issues AGAIN in short order - I'll just say that, yeah, I saw the end of UX 244, but I'm prepared to say that Maddie made a habit of knocking herself out...)
While wearing the same dress? And the X-Men never thought anything weird about it? It's a lot simpler just to move Wolverine 5-7 after UXM 243 and X-Factor 39 and assume that the armor was a replacement for the armor that was damaged in those issues.
metaldragon
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 700
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 4:03 pm
Contact:

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by metaldragon »

Michael wrote:
Somebody wrote:Leaving the specifics aside for the moment (since I can't be bothered to pull out all these issues AGAIN in short order - I'll just say that, yeah, I saw the end of UX 244, but I'm prepared to say that Maddie made a habit of knocking herself out...)
While wearing the same dress? And the X-Men never thought anything weird about it? It's a lot simpler just to move Wolverine 5-7 after UXM 243 and X-Factor 39 and assume that the armor was a replacement for the armor that was damaged in those issues.
The armor got kinda jagged looking during Inferno (which ends in XF 39). What state is the armor in in UXM 244-on ('till Psylocke goes into the Siege Perilous)? Is it still ragged looking or, if it isn't, is there any explanation for it's return to normal? I know a lot of the demonization during Inferno changed back to normal instantaneously once Madeline died but one of the characters in XF 39 commented that the X-Men didn't. Was their return to normal slower?
"May the Light shine forever!"
Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Michael »

The armor was back to normal without explanation by the time Betsy went through the Siege Perilous. The replacement armor theory explains everything without the Hulk taking two day plane trips or Maddie getting knocked out twice in the same place in the same dress with the computer damaged both times.
User avatar
Somebody
Director
Director
Posts: 3389
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:48 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Somebody »

metaldragon wrote:The armor got kinda jagged looking during Inferno (which ends in XF 39). What state is the armor in in UXM 244-on ('till Psylocke goes into the Siege Perilous)? Is it still ragged looking or, if it isn't, is there any explanation for it's return to normal? I know a lot of the demonization during Inferno changed back to normal instantaneously once Madeline died but one of the characters in XF 39 commented that the X-Men didn't. Was their return to normal slower?
Claremont intended for the X-Men to be permanently affected by their "demonisation"... but actually dropped the plot entirely.
Locked