Wolverine Vol2 7

[Michael]

Yes, we can assume that the X-Men were all forced to get new costumes (and comb their hair) -- but we don't have any in-book evidence that they did that (do we)?

I'm starting to think that it was Claremont's intent to tell the armor's origin story in the Wolverine arc -- and therefore have the Wolvie issues set in the past -- even though he screwed up and used the Fixit/Banner status quo from the time the book was published. And "author intent" carries a lot of weight with me...

There's no instory evidence that they DIDN'T get new costumes. I assumed they got new costumes when I was a kid.
The thing about "author intent" in this case is that we don't KNOW if Claremont intended this to be the original armor or replacement armor. A reasonable person can read the issue either way. OTOH, a reasonable person cannot assume that Claremont intended there to be a weeks long gap in the middle of Wolverine 7 or X-Men 232-234. The stories clearly read like events took place in rapid succession.

[JephYork]

There's no instory evidence that they DIDN'T get new costumes.

Ehhhh ... that's a slippery slope.

"Replacement armor" is an assumption that someone on these boards came up with twenty years after the comics were published. It's not a reasonable reading of the issues themselves. Yes, it COULD HAVE HAPPENED -- but we generally only assume wacky BTS costume-switch stuff like that when there's simply no other way to make the comics work as presented.

we don't KNOW if Claremont intended this to be the original armor or replacement armor.

However, since "replacement armor" is NEVER stated or alluded to in ANY comic, it's probably a much safer assumption that this was not Claremont's intent, no?

a reasonable person cannot assume that Claremont intended there to be a weeks long gap in the middle of Wolverine 7 or X-Men 232-234.

Obviously not. And I don't think I said that I thought that WAS his intent. It looks like a straightforward screw-up, to me. He was writing a Wolvie story set in the recent past ... but accidentally used the present-day Hulk status quo.

So, yes, creating a gap "violates his intent", just as assuming replacement armor. But it keeps the spirit of his story intact -- albeit with a lot of stuff shoveled between pages -- whereas "replacement armor" kind of takes the wind out of that plot point's sails.

Fixing this basically boils down to two ways: mucking with Coy and taking pages out of sequence -- or assuming that for some reason, even though the rest of the X-Men eventually reverted to normal after Inferno, Psylocke required new armor.

(Please note: the X-Men's changes weren't just limited to costume alterations. Wolvie's claws lengthened, jaw distended and he grew fangs ... Longshot's luck powers were tainted and his eye glowed black. These changes went away eventually. One can reasonably assume that all the other changes did too -- like Psylocke's armor reverting to normal.)

I'm leaning back towards mucking with Coy. It IS an oddity that Claremont started telling the armor's origin story months after the armor was introduced, but it looks to me like that was indeed what he was trying to do. We should try to make that work, I think.

-Jeph!

[JephYork]

I just took another look at Wolverine #7.

How about, instead of placing the gap between pp.14-15 -- leaving Coy throwing chairs a month later -- we place the gap DURING page 15?

Put it between panels 2-3. The dress Karma is taking off there is blue -- but earlier in the issue, it was red! This could be the break point -- as, undressing from some other social event, she thinks back to last month and recalls that her uncle still hasn't questioned her about the red dress. This would leave Coy throwing chairs IMMEDIATELY after the fact -- and Karma's encounter with Roughouse, which leads to her warning Wolvie about Fixit -- AFTER the gap.

For those who care about things like Wolvie's "narration" boxes on p.15 panels 2-4 (which clearly aren't happening strictly "now" anyway), those can be unhooked and tossed pre-gap. But I think this is a semi-elegant solution, that fixes the one glaring issue with the gap -- Coy throwing chairs.

Thoughts?

-Jeph!

[Michael]

So, yes, creating a gap "violates his intent", just as assuming replacement armor. But it keeps the spirit of his story intact -- albeit with a lot of stuff shoveled between pages -- whereas "replacement armor" kind of takes the wind out of that plot point's sails.

Fixing this basically boils down to two ways: mucking with Coy and taking pages out of sequence -- or assuming that for some reason, even though the rest of the X-Men eventually reverted to normal after Inferno, Psylocke required new armor.

(Please note: the X-Men's changes weren't just limited to costume alterations. Wolvie's claws lengthened, jaw distended and he grew fangs ... Longshot's luck powers were tainted and his eye glowed black. These changes went away eventually. One can reasonably assume that all the other changes did too -- like Psylocke's armor reverting to normal.)

I'm leaning back towards mucking with Coy. It IS an oddity that Claremont started telling the armor's origin story months after the armor was introduced, but it looks to me like that was indeed what he was trying to do. We should try to make that work, I think.

OK, one more time- Sabretooth damaged the armor when it was altered. If the armor was damaged when altered, what would happen when it reverts back? Would it revert back to damaged armor or undamaged armor? I wondered if Betsy got replacement armor when I was a kid because the armor might still be damaged when it changed back. Was I an "unreasonable" kid?
Moreover, your solution requires weeks to pass between Avengers Annual 17 and Inferno. That doesn't work. The reason Scott and Jean had to go looking for Nathan without Hank is because Hank was helping the Avengers in Avengers Annual 17. To make your solution work, it would either take Hank weeks to go from Indonesia to New York or Jean and Scott weeks to go from New York to Nebraska.

[JephYork]

How badly did he damage the armor? And what issue? I'd like to go check. Honestly, props like that get damaged all the time and are fine in later issues -- without whole storylines devoted to implying their replacement by identical items.

And why does my solution require "weeks" between the two books? Is this one of those "well, weeks pass in book X even though only days pass in book Y" situations? The Marvel Universe is LITTERED with stuff like that -- temporal references are easily overruled in my book, since they're more or less throwaway scene-setting snippets of text.

I have no idea if you were an unreasonable kid or not. It's entirely possible that you got hung up on a detail that's still sitting in your brain decades later. It happens to me all the time.

For example, here's a detail I'm hung up on: the facemask on the armor in the Wolvie issues. We never saw that facemask in the X-books -- which always made me think that this was "armor v1.0", and Betsy discarded the facemask when she received the armor.

Then again, I didn't read these books in their original publication order, as they came out. If I did, I may have already been used to Betsy's maskless armor, and seen this masked version as something "new" -- an upgrade, maybe.

-Jeph!

[metaldragon]

Moreover, your solution requires weeks to pass between Avengers Annual 17 and Inferno. That doesn't work. The reason Scott and Jean had to go looking for Nathan without Hank is because Hank was helping the Avengers in Avengers Annual 17. To make your solution work, it would either take Hank weeks to go from Indonesia to New York or Jean and Scott weeks to go from New York to Nebraska.

That's HIGHLY improbable because Hank, Scott, & Jean are with Rusty when he turns himself in at the Naval prison in the first issue of the X-terminator's mini-series which is the opening to Inferno and Hank then goes to help the Avengers in A@ 17 while Cyclops & Marvel Girl go search for Scott's baby in XF 34-35.

[Somebody]

Put it between panels 2-3. The dress Karma is taking off there is blue -- but earlier in the issue, it was red!

Given the standard of colouring over the arc - take a look at just how many times Lindsay & Tyger's "Psylocke" armour changes colour schemes! - I'm hesitant to take that as a clue (and doubly so since there's a clear line of red underneath it, implying she's put something over the red dress and is taking both off together).

How badly did he damage the armor? And what issue? I'd like to go check.

UX 243. And it's kind of hard to tell - he definitely knocks chunks off the shoulder pads in an over-the-shoulder view, but we're never given a really clear view of any torso damage. There's certainly no gargantuan holes in it, but beyond that isn't clear.

Honestly, props like that get damaged all the time and are fine in later issues -- without whole storylines devoted to implying their replacement by identical items.

Of course, those are rarely unique items - one red'n'blue Spider-Man costume is much like another.

And there's a perfect example in a Claremont-written book of that exact time - Captain Britain's costume is shredded by Kitty with the Soulsword during Excalibur's Inferno tie-in arc (while he was demon-transformed, no less!). And with no working costume his powers consequently start to fail until he returns to the UK; and he doesn't get a new functional costume until he's given an alternate Captain's uniform during the Cross-Time Caper. He doesn't just show up the following issue with costume intact, and Psylocke's armour is at least loosely comparable, since it requires more than a needle'n'thread to repair or replace.

For example, here's a detail I'm hung up on: the facemask on the armor in the Wolvie issues. We never saw that facemask in the X-books -- which always made me think that this was "armor v1.0", and Betsy discarded the facemask when she received the armor.

Then again, I didn't read these books in their original publication order, as they came out. If I did, I may have already been used to Betsy's maskless armor, and seen this masked version as something "new" -- an upgrade, maybe.

Well, in that specific case, it looks a lot like Wolverine discarded the facemask as soon as he took it off Tyger on the roof (while she was panicking about never being able to take it off, and possibly starving to death as a result) - she's not wearing it in the following scene, where she still has the armour on, and neither of them appear to be carrying it.

[Michael]

And why does my solution require "weeks" between the two books? Is this one of those "well, weeks pass in book X even though only days pass in book Y" situations? The Marvel Universe is LITTERED with stuff like that -- temporal references are easily overruled in my book, since they're more or less throwaway scene-setting snippets of text.
-Jeph!

OK, maybe not weeks, but my point is this:you're placing all the events of the second half of Wolverine 7, all of Wolverine 8 and X-Men 235-239 between Avengers Annual 17 and X-Men 240. But Avengers Annual 17 is referenced in X-Factor 34 shortly before Scott and Jean leave New York to go to Nebraska to stop villains who have taken over an orphanage and X-Men 240 is referenced shortly after Scott and Jean arrive at said orphanage. Unless it took Scott and Jean several days to get there because Scott didn't ask for directions,there's no way you're going to convince me that all those stories took place in such a short period of time.

[JephYork]

UX 243. And it's kind of hard to tell - he definitely knocks chunks off the shoulder pads in an over-the-shoulder view, but we're never given a really clear view of any torso damage. There's certainly no gargantuan holes in it, but beyond that isn't clear.

I'm seeing some pretty clear views of Psylocke's armor later in UX #243, and in X-Factor #39. Heck, the next few panels after Sabretooth's attack we get two solid views (one with the torso blocked but leg visible, the next with the torso visible and legs blocked) -- and I don't sven see the shoulder damage anymore!

there's a perfect example in a Claremont-written book of that exact time - Captain Britain's costume is shredded by Kitty with the Soulsword during Excalibur's Inferno tie-in arc (while he was demon-transformed, no less!). And with no working costume his powers consequently start to fail until he returns to the UK; and he doesn't get a new functional costume until he's given an alternate Captain's uniform during the Cross-Time Caper. He doesn't just show up the following issue with costume intact, and Psylocke's armour is at least loosely comparable, since it requires more than a needle'n'thread to repair or replace.

Excellent point. However, as you said, CB's costume IS DESTROYED ON-PANEL, while Psylocke -- as far as we can tell -- just suffers random shoulder damage. Also, the Excalibur stories make it explicitly clear what's going on, in terms of a replacement costume -- the Wolverine issues don't.

you're placing all the events of the second half of Wolverine 7, all of Wolverine 8 and X-Men 235-239 between Avengers Annual 17 and X-Men 240.

Why are you assuming that I'm placing Uncanny #235-238 after the gap? Why can't they go during it as well, thus making the chronology a simple and quick:

Avengers Annual 17 -> Wolvie 7-8 -> Inferno

?

-Jeph!

[Somebody]

Also, the Excalibur stories make it explicitly clear what's going on, in terms of a replacement costume -- the Wolverine issues don't.

To be fair, the Wolverine issues don't mention Psylocke at all.

There are only two mentions of its' ultimate destination - one by Mr Chang in W2 5, where he says that "it is part of an order placed with us by Mr. Patch for a colleague" (which begs the question, of course, of what the other part was ), and Wolverine himself saying in the rooftop scene in W2 7 that he "commissioned the armour, Tyger, for a friend".

Given that both Chang and Logan don't want to bring Betsy into it (Chang may not even have known about Psylocke, but Tyger explicitly knows that Patch=Wolverine and that the X-Men are alive), they're hardly likely to go into further detail.

*knows he needs to look over all these issues again now... but not tonight*

[Michael]

you're placing all the events of the second half of Wolverine 7, all of Wolverine 8 and X-Men 235-239 between Avengers Annual 17 and X-Men 240.

Why are you assuming that I'm placing Uncanny #235-238 after the gap? Why can't they go during it as well, thus making the chronology a simple and quick:

Avengers Annual 17 -> Wolvie 7-8 -> Inferno

?

-Jeph!

Sorry,it was Ocean Doot who put Uncanny 235-238 after the gap. I still say that there's too much time between Avengers Annual 17 and Inferno. Let's review the chronology:the Hulk arrives, he changes back into Banner,the Hulk helps free some sex slaves, he changes back into Banner,he destroys a drug lab, argues with Logan and leaves.That's got to be more than 48 hours. How slowly were Scott and Jean going to Nebraska?
"Jean, can we stop in Chicago? I've always wanted to see Wrigley Field."
"Scott, there are children in danger,including your son."
"It'll only be a few hours."

[JephYork]

Ugh. Now you've made me get my books out, and I immediately see a flaw in your reasoning. You're being far too literal.

"The Beast is away, helping the Avengers", with a footnote to Avengers Annual #17, does not automatically equal "the Beast is fighting a pitched battle in Avengers Annual #17 this exact instant".

We see the Beast at the start of X-Terminators #1, watching as Rusty surrenders himself. Then there's a caption box -- "several days later", Jean drops Artie and Leech off at school. In XF #34, she returns from dropping them off and Ship notifies her that the Beast is away helping the Avengers.

All this means is that the Beast hasn't yet returned FROM the events of Avengers Annual #17. It doesn't mean that Avengers Annual #17 IS HAPPENING RIGHT THEN.

And lookit that, there's a gap of "several days" between the last time we saw the Beast, and the time Scott and Jean go to the orphanage.

Try this on for size: the Beast IMMEDIATELY leaves for Avengers Annual #17 after watching Rusty surrender in XTERM #1. The Annual ends -- the Hulk wanders off to Wolvie's book -- and the Beast then hangs around Avengers Mansion for "several days" -- while several days pass within XTERM #1 -- and is heading home just as Jean asks where he is. (Ship would have no idea that the Avengers action is over; as far as it knows, the Beast is -- literally -- still away with the Avengers.) Beast returns at the very beginning of #35, which you keep pointing out is closely tied to #34 in time.

That allows "several days" for the last half of Wolvie #7 and all of Wolvie #8 to occur.

Happy? I'm still not 100% sold on the "bust up Wolvie #7" theory, but I'm finding that a lot of the alleged "problems" that people are bringing up with it, are really paper-thin...

-Jeph!

[JephYork]

Waitaminnit -- if Inferno is such a problem, why don't we just put IT into this big gap as well?

I think I've been at this for too long, so pardon me if I've forgotten some compelling rationale, but why does the Hulk portion of Wolvie #7, and all of Wolvie #8-10, HAVE TO HAPPEN BEFORE INFERNO? They were, after all, published afterwards ... and if we're crowbarring UX #232-238 into this gap, why not Inferno as well?

-Jeph!

[Michael]

Ugh. Now you've made me get my books out, and I immediately see a flaw in your reasoning. You're being far too literal.

"The Beast is away, helping the Avengers", with a footnote to Avengers Annual #17, does not automatically equal "the Beast is fighting a pitched battle in Avengers Annual #17 this exact instant".

We see the Beast at the start of X-Terminators #1, watching as Rusty surrenders himself. Then there's a caption box -- "several days later", Jean drops Artie and Leech off at school. In XF #34, she returns from dropping them off and Ship notifies her that the Beast is away helping the Avengers.

All this means is that the Beast hasn't yet returned FROM the events of Avengers Annual #17. It doesn't mean that Avengers Annual #17 IS HAPPENING RIGHT THEN.

And lookit that, there's a gap of "several days" between the last time we saw the Beast, and the time Scott and Jean go to the orphanage.

Try this on for size: the Beast IMMEDIATELY leaves for Avengers Annual #17 after watching Rusty surrender in XTERM #1. The Annual ends -- the Hulk wanders off to Wolvie's book -- and the Beast then hangs around Avengers Mansion for "several days" -- while several days pass within XTERM #1 -- and is heading home just as Jean asks where he is. (Ship would have no idea that the Avengers action is over; as far as it knows, the Beast is -- literally -- still away with the Avengers.) Beast returns at the very beginning of #35, which you keep pointing out is closely tied to #34 in time.

That allows "several days" for the last half of Wolvie #7 and all of Wolvie #8 to occur.

Happy? I'm still not 100% sold on the "bust up Wolvie #7" theory, but I'm finding that a lot of the alleged "problems" that people are bringing up with it, are really paper-thin...

-Jeph!

But the Avengers were disbanded at the time. It was an ad hoc team put together to stop the Evolutionary. But here's the real problem- Cap already knew there was something weird going on in New York, since he and Jarvis had recently been atttacked by a magically-animated car. Why would Hank sit around Avengers Mansion for several days after Cap told him this?

[metaldragon]

OK, here's Beast's chrono: (just to clarify)

XTERM 1
H2 350
A@ 17
CA 349-BTS
XF 35

He drops Rusty off to Naval Prison, goes shopping and encounters "Mr. Fixit", joins up with a group of reserve Avengers (including Hulk) to stop the High Evolutionary, is BTS in Captain America (don't have this issue. What happens?), then joins up with Iceman to fight demonized objects in New York.