Wolverine Vol2 7

Discuss chronologies for characters in the main "Marvel Universe"

Moderators: Col_Fury, michel, Arthur, Somebody, StrayLamb

Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Michael »

In Cap 349, we don't see Beast on panel, but he drops Cap off near Hydrobase, where Avengers Mansion is located at the time. (Steve decides to swim part of the way.) Cap runs into D-Man, who's been waiting for Cap there for a while. That doesn't seem consistent with Hank spending days at Avengers Mansion.
JephYork
Comic Pro
Comic Pro
Posts: 4657
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:10 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by JephYork »

Jeez. You guys are still being far too literal. I tossed out "Beast spends days at the mansion" as one possible explanation for what he might have done to pass the time during the gap of days in X-Terminators #1. The fact that he makes other appearances in that timeframe (Hulk #350, Cap #349) is, obviously, a better explanation for what he was doing.

Again, my point is that just because Ship says "As far as I know Beast is off helping the Avengers" in XF #34 doesn't mean that Avengers Annual #17 was happening at exactly that second. All it means is that Beast hasn't checked in SINCE leaving to go help them.

And -- wait -- why exactly must Avengers #298 occur before the Annual?

I'd also like to see someone respond to my suggestion that the "second half" of Wolvie #7 and all of #8 could happen after Inferno.

-Jeph!
Michael
Chronology Guru
Chronology Guru
Posts: 1347
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:41 am

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Michael »

The dialogue in Cap 349 makes it clear Avengers 298 took place first. But you're right, Inferno could take place during the gap as well. But my point is this: which is simpler- splitting an issue that obviously isn't supposed to have a gap or assuming that the armor is replacement for armor that was stated to be damaged during a story?
JephYork
Comic Pro
Comic Pro
Posts: 4657
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:10 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by JephYork »

The armor WASN'T "stated" to be damaged, Michael. It was SHOWN to be demonized, but everything else that was demonized eventually changed back -- including non-costume items like Wolvie's claws & face and Longshot's powers -- a point I've made repeatedly and that nobody has addressed. And the armor was SHOWN to have a shoulder damaged, but no major torso damage was shown, implied or seen. So, no, it wasn't "stated" to have sustained enough damage to mandate replacement.

And I'm not sold EITHER way -- I'm just exploring all our options.

A gap CAN be created in Wolvie #7 with minimal effort, between panels of p.15. The re-ordering of pages is a bit more problematic in some minds, however, and might violate the issue's spirit.

Or we COULD assume that it's replacement armor, despite pretty much zero in-story evidence that any was needed, and requiring a creative re-reading of Wolvie #7 -- but this solution allows us to keep the issue as-is with no gaps.

Where did the notion of a gap in Wolvie #7 come from in the first place, by the way? Was it from the 1990s Index? because if so, to me, that's a STRONG argument in favor of that solution...

-Jeph!
User avatar
Col_Fury
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 7754
Joined: Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:37 am
Location: on a Helicarrier, above Illinois
Contact:

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Col_Fury »

jephyork wrote:Where did the notion of a gap in Wolvie #7 come from in the first place, by the way? Was it from the 1990s Index?
Paul Bourcier wrote:the Index (that is, the second X-Men Index from 1994) (...) shows the chronology as:
UX 234
W2 1-3
M/AGE@ 4
W2 4-8
UX@ 12
AF 61
UX 235
And then check here for when & why it was changed:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4421#p27486
-Daron Jensen
JephYork
Comic Pro
Comic Pro
Posts: 4657
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:10 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by JephYork »

Right in this very thread ... d'oh. Thanks, Colonel.

So the older Index placed the Wolvie armor issues AFTER Psylocke is first shown wearing it, but BEFORE it's quote-unquote damaged during Inferno. Hurm.

I think I'm starting to lean towards "replacement armor". Both solutions do damage to the Wolvie story -- whether it's shuffling scenes out of order and creating a lengthy gap mid-narration, or screwing with Claremont's intent for this to be the armor's origin. But I'm starting to think that the "replacement" scenario is the lesser of two wacky evils, and -- heck -- at least it's broadly consistent with Wolvie #7 being published AFTER Inferno...

-Jeph!
Ocean Doot
Big Bad
Big Bad
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:36 pm

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Ocean Doot »

Somebody wrote:And there's a perfect example in a Claremont-written book of that exact time - Captain Britain's costume is shredded by Kitty with the Soulsword during Excalibur's Inferno tie-in arc (while he was demon-transformed, no less!). And with no working costume his powers consequently start to fail until he returns to the UK; and he doesn't get a new functional costume until he's given an alternate Captain's uniform during the Cross-Time Caper. He doesn't just show up the following issue with costume intact,
Actually, in MOJO MAYHEM, Captain Britain DOES show up with costume intact. And that issue is set in between pages of Excalibur #11, which is before the Cross-Time Caper!

I'm just sayin'. :)
---
And I still don't see why Coy throwing chairs a month after the first part of W2 #7 is being painted as the most ridiculous, absurd, foolish, impossible-to-buy characterization ever depicted in all of comic-book fiction ... This in a universe where so many stories start with opening on a villain still stewing over the last time Spider-Man kicked his ass, 20 issues ago ...

But that's just me. [shrug]
Last edited by Somebody on Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Merging posts-in-a-row.
JephYork
Comic Pro
Comic Pro
Posts: 4657
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:10 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by JephYork »

I think you're exaggerating a bit there, Doot.

Fact is, Coy's reaction COMBINED with the necessity to reshuffle half the pages in the issue was what did it for me ... and I'm STILL not sure which way I like better.

Just Coy? Yes, I could live with it. Coy plus having to creatively reinterpret the crosscutting? Ehhh.

-Jeph!
Ocean Doot
Big Bad
Big Bad
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:36 pm

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Ocean Doot »

jephyork wrote:I think you're exaggerating a bit there, Doot.
Who, me? :wink:

In seriousness, I see where everyone's coming from. As you note, in either "solution," authorial intent has to be messed with to make things work. I'd again point to the fact that issue 8 of Wolverine refers to the events of issue 5 as having happened "last month" -- I could quite easily be convinced that that was an attempt by Claremont (or his editors) to course-correct after realizing the Hulk-related continuity mistake. (Issues 5-8 present an unbroken string of events, that don't really cover more than a few days in toto -- unless a gap is inserted somewhere.)

And again, search for a "Meanwhile" connecting those Hulk scenes to the Wolverine ones. You won't find one. Not even the comic itself insists that they are happening simultaneously.

"Replacement armor" is easier, though. Indeed, one could say that it doesn't really screw with Claremont's intent that much at all. Claremont was using the Wolverine series to explain the origin of Psylocke's armor: Landau, Luckman & Lake. Even if what we see in Wolverine 5-7 is replacement armor, we have STILL learned that L, L & L created the armor ... unless we're to think that the first set of armor came from somewhere else, which is counter-intuitive.
User avatar
Somebody
Director
Director
Posts: 3388
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:48 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Somebody »

Ocean Doot wrote:
Somebody wrote:And there's a perfect example in a Claremont-written book of that exact time - Captain Britain's costume is shredded by Kitty with the Soulsword during Excalibur's Inferno tie-in arc (while he was demon-transformed, no less!). And with no working costume his powers consequently start to fail until he returns to the UK; and he doesn't get a new functional costume until he's given an alternate Captain's uniform during the Cross-Time Caper. He doesn't just show up the following issue with costume intact,
Actually, in MOJO MAYHEM, Captain Britain DOES show up with costume intact. And that issue is set in between pages of Excalibur #11, which is before the Cross-Time Caper!

I'm just sayin'. :)[shrug]
Hey, Mojo Mayhem doesn't fit ANYWHERE. It's not so much "set" between pages of Exc #11 as "forced in there with a pneumatic drill, sledgehammer, crowbar and tub of grease" :). IIRC, Captain Britain's costuming isn't even the biggest problem, let alone the only one.

[Which is actually a problem with most of the Excalibur one-shots and fill-ins, come to think of it. That one stands out for being written by the guy who was writing the ongoing series and should have arranged matters such that MM at least vaguely fit with it, however.]
Ocean Doot
Big Bad
Big Bad
Posts: 113
Joined: Wed Mar 31, 2004 4:36 pm

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Ocean Doot »

Somebody wrote:
Ocean Doot wrote:
Somebody wrote:And there's a perfect example in a Claremont-written book of that exact time - Captain Britain's costume is shredded by Kitty with the Soulsword during Excalibur's Inferno tie-in arc (while he was demon-transformed, no less!). And with no working costume his powers consequently start to fail until he returns to the UK; and he doesn't get a new functional costume until he's given an alternate Captain's uniform during the Cross-Time Caper. He doesn't just show up the following issue with costume intact,
Actually, in MOJO MAYHEM, Captain Britain DOES show up with costume intact. And that issue is set in between pages of Excalibur #11, which is before the Cross-Time Caper!

I'm just sayin'. :)[shrug]
Hey, Mojo Mayhem doesn't fit ANYWHERE. It's not so much "set" between pages of Exc #11 as "forced in there with a pneumatic drill, sledgehammer, crowbar and tub of grease" :). IIRC, Captain Britain's costuming isn't even the biggest problem, let alone the only one.
Really? It's the only problem I've noticed. Is there a thread about this? I'd be curious to read it. I genuinely think it fits perfectly well between the pages of Exc 11, except for the costume thing. (I cringe to imagine what I have overlooked ... :) )
JephYork
Comic Pro
Comic Pro
Posts: 4657
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:10 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by JephYork »

Anytime anything's wrong with any Excalibur special edition, it's Merlyn screwing with everyone.

Thank you Alan Davis.

-Jeph!
User avatar
Somebody
Director
Director
Posts: 3388
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:48 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Somebody »

Ocean Doot wrote:Really? It's the only problem I've noticed. Is there a thread about this? I'd be curious to read it. I genuinely think it fits perfectly well between the pages of Exc 11, except for the costume thing. (I cringe to imagine what I have overlooked ... :) )
Without grabbing the issues, which are probably buried under a pile of stuff, I mainly recall that there's no authorial intentionality-approved gap in Excalibur #11 for it to go. There's a gap crowbarred in somewhere - I think Brian, Meggan & Kurt explicitly not returning to the lighthouse as long as their Nazi counterparts are around gets ignored for MM, while the later fill-ins are shoved in just after the Nazis go home - but for it to be properly "set" in the issue would have needed Claremont to leave somewhere unforced for it to have happened.
jephyork wrote:Anytime anything's wrong with any Excalibur special edition, it's Merlyn screwing with everyone.

Thank you Alan Davis.

-Jeph!
*whistles*
jephyork, Archive 76 wrote:Posted: 24 Aug 2006 12:10 pm
By jephyork
Director

And chew on this little nugget: Alan Davis wrote the bit telling us that "The Possession" was a fantasy sequence for one reason -- because he felt it contained way too many continuity problems to otherwise be canon.

Presumably Alan had also read the other issues written his absence. And if he had felt that any of THEM were also too "wrong" to be canon, I'm sure he would have worked a similar explanation for them into his story. But he didn't.

What does that tell you? It tells ME that Alan Davis considered those stories canonical. It tells me that he didn't intend his "the Possession was a fantasy" plot point to include any other stories -- JUST "the Possession", nothing else.

And if he didn't intend it that way, I don't think we have a right to read it that way.

-Jeph!
JephYork
Comic Pro
Comic Pro
Posts: 4657
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2004 10:10 pm
Location: Boston

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by JephYork »

Well, damn.

(That said, I was kinda being sarcastic with my "Merlyn" answer just now. It's like that Simpsons episode where Lucy Lawless dismissed every continuity problem on Xena: Warrior Princess by saying "a wizard did it.")

-Jeph!
User avatar
Somebody
Director
Director
Posts: 3388
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2005 2:48 pm
Location: Scotland
Contact:

Re: Wolverine Vol2 7

Post by Somebody »

jephyork wrote:Well, damn.

(That said, I was kinda being sarcastic with my "Merlyn" answer just now. It's like that Simpsons episode where Lucy Lawless dismissed every continuity problem on Xena: Warrior Princess by saying "a wizard did it.")
Jeph, you've gone waaay too far in this thread (And on this board. And in your Marvel job.) into the minutae to even try a "wizard" defence :)
Locked