Wolverine Vol2 7

[frogcoin]

Hi, im starting to read Wolverine 2 series and place it in chronology but i have some doubts with w2 7, checking in wolverine chronology i have:

Wolverine
UX 231
WARH 1
M/CP 1-10
W2 1-3
W:DOOMBRINGER
M/AGE@ 4
W2 4-6
W2 7
UX 232-234
UX@ 12
W2 7
W2 8

i dont get why W2 7 has been splitted in two parts, i have been checking W2 7-8, UX232-234 and UX@12 to see if there was any reason for that but i found nothing about it, the only connection was that in W2 7 tyger was wearing psylocke suit for protection and logan help her remove it and in UX 232 psylocke likes her new suit but that is not enough reason to split W2 7, any help with this please? thanks

[Somebody]

I suspect that "because the Index said so" is the basic reason at hand, probably in some Calendar-related way, but I don't have the Indices to prove it.

I agree that, looking at the Wolverine issues in question, wedging a gap in #7 is odd - Hulk's in train from the start of the issue, Karma already knows he's on his way in the Roughouse scene, Coy's reactions and her thought balloons in that scene make it clear that it's same night (into morning?) as the fight in #6/the Prince's intervention, and "Mr Fixit" arrives the next day (or same day if the "night" events are taken to run into the early hours of the morning). Doubly so since there's a nice, clean continuity break after #8.

[Paul Bourcier]

Nope, it's not because the Index (that is, the second X-Men Index from 1994) said so. That index shows the chronology as:
UX 234
W2 1-3
M/AGE@ 4
W2 4-8
UX@ 12
AF 61
UX 235

The current Index has the chronology as noted in the MCP. Not sure of the reason for the break from the older Index.

[Somebody]

Okay, I really don't get this then (and I *do* have the newest Index series, I meant the 1980s & 90s series. Apparently, I haven't auto-trained myself to check that yet). Reading through W2 7, there's no significant gap there, especially given the tone of "Patch's" narration re: "because Karma asked" - any splice is of the forced "only if there's absolutely no alternative that can't wait an issue and a half/a day" sort. Investigating...

Okay, per the Wayback Machine, the change to the MCP was made between Oct 5 & Dec 6, 2006. Prior to that, Wolverine's MCP chronology read:

UX 234
W2 1-3
W:DOOMBRINGER
M/AGE@ 4
W2 4-6
UX@ 12
W2 7-8
AF 61
UX 235

i.e., almost in-line with the 1994 Index, but with an impossible placement for UX@ 12 (the end of W2 6 is a cliffhanger, which is picked up directly in W2 7 after a Hulk scene).

With that in mind, from Archive 73, here's the apparent cause of the move:

Posted: 23 Jul 2006 08:38 pm Post subject: Wolverine chronology (1980's)
By Mikhail

I have a question about the placement of the following issues.

UX 232
UX 233
UX 234
W2 1
W2 2
W2 3
W:DOOMBRINGER
M/AGE@ 4
W2 4
W2 5
W2 6
UX@ 12
W2 7

UX 232 is the debut of Psylocke in her personal body armor, yet W2 5 has Jessica Drew and Lindsey McCabe retrieving the armor from LL&L for Logan, and Tyger Tiger wears in through W2 7 before Logan reclaims it, so shouldn't W2 1-7 occur prior to UX 232-234? Also, at least part of W2 7 is a direct continuation from the cliffhanger in W2 6. I think it should look more like this:

W2 1
W2 2
W2 3
W:DOOMBRINGER
M/AGE@ 4
W2 4
W2 5
W2 6
W2 7
UX 232
UX 233
UX 234
UX@ 12
W2 7

* * *

Posted: 25 Jul 2006 10:45 am
By Ocean Doot

I was wondering about this same thing. I believe you're right -- the break point has to come in the middle of issue 7, because the beginning continues directly from Wolverine 6.

The most logical place is to break it right after the last time we see Tyger wearing the armor. (There is an unspecified time-lapse between that scene and the next.)

Basically, it appears to have been a hasty correction, where no-one noticed the far more sensible extant break after W2 8, or that - given Coy, Karma and Wolverine's actions and dialogue in the following scene - there's no time-lapse at that point in W2 7. Wolverine would have to go literally straight from Tyger to Coy's hotel rooms to fit with the scenes as they stand.

Is there any reason NOT to move to the following chronology for Wolverine? Because it looks to me like there are several reasons that we should.

WOLVERINE/"LOGAN"/etc
[...]
W2 1-3
W:DOOMBRINGER
M/AGE@ 4
*W2 4-8
*UX 232-234
*UX@ 12
AF 61
UX 235
[...]

[frogcoin]

what somebody suggest looks more plausible, and indeed W2 7-8 are closely connected.

[Ocean Doot]

It's because all the stuff with the pink armor has to come before we see Psylocke wearing it, which means it has to go before Uncanny 232.

But anything with the Hulk in it (which includes the first few pages of Wolverine #7, which has to be seen as being chronologically displaced), has to come AFTER the end of the Evolutionary War, which means after the X-Men's participation in the Evolutionary War, in Uncanny Annual #12.

The reason for this is that the Hulk had a spell on him for a while, where he wasn't turning into Banner. He was the Hulk, all the time, 24/7. His status did not change until just after the Evolutionary War (in Hulk 351-352).

The Hulk we see in Wolverine 7-8 IS changing back to Banner during the day.

That's why the split has to be where it is. (At least, I don't see any other way to do it. And judging by the quote, I didn't see another way back then either. )

[Ocean Doot]

Basically, it appears to have been a hasty correction, where no-one noticed the far more sensible extant break after W2 8,

C'mon. Give me a little more credit than that, Somebody!

[Somebody]

Basically, it appears to have been a hasty correction, where no-one noticed the far more sensible extant break after W2 8,

C'mon. Give me a little more credit than that, Somebody!

Hey, you said that "the break point has to come in the middle of [Wolverine v2] 7", that "the most logical place is to break it right after the last time we see Tyger wearing the armor" and that there's an "unspecified time-lapse" to the next scene. When I went and looked at the comic, that seemed to be complete and utter balderdash to me! Given that Wolverine gets to the Sovereign barely after Coy, while Coy's still in a rage about the prince "betraying" him and Karma's nervy about her uncle finding out why she was at the palace in the first place, he must have ran, not walked, over there when he skipped out on Baran's tour of his McCabe collection . Karma then emotionally blackmails him into helping stop "Mr. Fixit" (who has several scenes in-transit from Las Vegas to Madripoor over the course of the issue even before that, including boarding a plane to Madripoor) from killing her uncle.

Moreso since I then went and looked at UX 232. And found not a scene of Psylocke donning the armour, but opening in a fight scene that has Psylocke simply in the armour, with no acknowledgement beyond a "good job I swapped my costume for this armour, huh" (Note: Not actual dialogue ) halfway through the issue.

Basically, unless you want UX 232-234 *and* UX@ 12 to occur while the Hulk's in flight from Los Angeles to Madripoor, it's not logical at all to break W2 7, rather than stick them after W2 8 and presume that Wolverine either held onto the armour for a couple of days, or sent it to Australia via Gateway without going through the events of the UX issues and Annual at that time. Since you said that breaking W2 7 had to happen, and it was logical, I presumed that you didn't take a close look at the issues, since if you did and still came to that opinion... well, that would be silly.

[Ocean Doot]

Somebody, how you vex me!

You did this back then and you're doing it again -- why do you ignore my suggestion that the early Hulk scenes have to be considered to be taking place out of sequence? I am not saying that Uncanny 232-234 and the Annual happen while the Hulk is on the plane -- I am saying the Hulk stuff, even the stuff on the first few pages, ALL has to be shoved on the latter side of the gap. (I believe that there are not even any "Meanwhile"'s in the issue to even contradict the notion that they are not occurring simultaneously with the Tyger-in-armor scenes.)

Why does it matter that we don't see Psylocke donning the armor in issue 232? The point is, she ALREADY HAS IT. Thus, the armor stuff in WOLVERINE takes place EARLIER than issue 232.

The Hulk is turning back to Banner in his scenes in WOLVERINE, which means it is post-Evolutionary War and thus post-X-Men Annual 12 and therefore those scenes have to take place LATER than issue 232. This means there HAS TO BE A BREAK somewhere in Wolverine #7.

Am I really being that unclear? I KNOW that there is nothing about the Wolverine and X-Men comics to suggest there has to be a break in W2 7. It is the interweaving with Hulk continuity that causes the problem, that creates the need for the break, and that requires one to find a point in Wolverine 7 where there is an unspecified time-lapse.

Yes, I know that the lapse I identified was not exactly intuitive, but jeez, don't we make un-intuitive breaks in issues all the time -- I thought it was part of what happens here ...? You know, Uncanny X-Men 13 has the X-Men all beat-up and in hospital beds from fighting the Juggernaut, and Uncanny X-Men 14 opens with them still on crutches and still healing. Perhaps you can remind me how many issues of X-Men First Class have been slotted between Uncanny 13 and Uncanny 14?

Some more fuel to the fire, by the way: A full month occurs between the end of Wolverine #5 and the end of Wolverine #8. That is said explicitly at the end of W2 8. There can't be more than a day between issues 5 and 6. Issue 6 all takes place over the course of an hour or two. Issue 8 explicitly takes place over two days. So where is that lost month?

I am not trying to be contrary, I just don't see why half of my argument is being ignored, which is to say, the Hulk half. If it was all about X-continuity, absolutely Wolverine #8 should go before X-Men #232. It is the Hulk status quo that forces the gap.

[Ocean Doot]

(Actually, why am I apologizing for being contrary? I am arguing that the current MCP listing is CORRECT!!!)

[JephYork]

how many issues of X-Men First Class have been slotted between Uncanny 13 and Uncanny 14?

Currently zero?

-Jeph!

[Paul Bourcier]

Uh oh...we're not bringing up the official non-canonicity of First Class are we?

[Ocean Doot]

how many issues of X-Men First Class have been slotted between Uncanny 13 and Uncanny 14?

Currently zero?

-Jeph!

Well, that negates my whole argument then.

[JephYork]

Nah. I wish I followed this discussion better, but I don't own half the comics. It's fascinating, though -- I'm eagerly awaiting Somebody's rebuttal.

-Jeph!

[Somebody]

Unfortunately, he's kinda right if you take the armour's appearances as sacrosanct, even if it IS a Bendis-level continuity trainwreck that requires the cross-referencing of umpteen comics.

The basic problem's what he said (in a post I didn't actually notice, Doot - the reason you shouldn't post twice in a row!) - Psylocke appears in UX@ 12 [Evolutionary War pt 7] in her armour. Hulk appears in A@ 17 [Evolutionary War pt 11], which is led directly into by H2 350 and which in turn leads straight into H2 351. The Hulk/Banner night/day status quo is only reestablished at the end of H2 352 (#351-352 are mostly a FB story explaining how Banner got locked away, just as the spell finally wears off). Hulk changes to Banner in the day as a plot point in the Wolverine issues, and he's on his way to Madripoor with that status quo by the time Tyger is out of the armour in W2 7.

There's no way to preserve all of this - it's a Bendisian loop. Something in the above chain of events HAS to give.

Doot's solution is to maintain the current MCP listing - which requires not just driving a clean-if-awkward gap in W2 7, but actually reordering the issue completely, taking the Hulk scenes as flashforwards.

Here's the sequence of events in W2 7:

(1-2): At Berengetti's request, Hulk goes to see a man, who he makes a deal with to go to Madripoor and sort out Coy
(3:1-5:3): Direct continuation of the end of W2 6. Prince Baran's shown up, and he's not happy about the brawl in his palace - until he sees Lindsay McCabe, upon which he turns into a drooling fanboy.
(5:4-9:2): Hulk's chauffeur meets with some trouble en-route to the airport, and Hulk himself steps in to beat them up before taking one of their motorbikes, since his car needs fixed; ordering them to pay to fix his car, then turn themselves in.
(9:3-11:3): Tyger's locked in a palace room; and is stuck in the armour, including a faceplate she can't remove. She's worried about not being able to eat or drink, until Wolverine shows up and takes the faceplate off. He convinces her to take the deal the prince is going to offer.
(11:4-12:4): Some baggage handlers have trouble with "Mr Fixit's" luggage, and start slagging him off. Some loud bangs from the inside of the plane, causing some undercarriage to abruptly pop out, convinces them to be more careful.
(12:5-14:6): Tyger [still in the rest of the armour] and Coy reluctantly shake hands on the deal in front of the prince, and the prince orders that they be escorted out from opposite sides of the grounds. He then takes Lindsay, Jessica Drew (who have both changed clothes) and "Patch" around his personal Hall of Lindsay McCabe. Wolverine slips away almost unnoticed during the tour.
(15:1-17:4): Coy wrecks his hotel room in anger at the prince "betraying" him, while Karma reflects as she gets changed that she's glad Coy hasn't thought to ask why exactly she was at the palace, and dressed "so scandalously". A drunken Roughhouse barges in, and Wolverine follows on behind, knocking him half-silly so Karma can telepathically knock him out. Karma then tells Wolverine that "an enforcer known as Mr. Fixit" is being sent to deal with Coy after the events of W2 5 [where Coy's opium crop was destroyed by Wolverine], and she still needs her uncle's help, guilt-tripping him into helping.
(17:5-22:2): Hulk gets into a fight on arrival, and is at risk of not making it to the hotel before dawn. He makes it worth "Patch's" while to get him there on time.
(22:3-22:6): After sunrise, Wolverine sneaks into Fixit's room, and sees an unconscious Bruce Banner lying on the bed.

Basically, Doot's way involves running the story as:

W2 6
W2 7 (3:1-5:3)
W2 7 (9:3-11:3)
W2 7 (12:5-14:6)
[break]
W2 7 (1-2)
W2 7 (5:4-9:2)
W2 7 (11:4-12:4)
W2 7 (15-22)
W2 8

That is, ripping the issue to shreds as well as punching a gap in it.

Now, firstly, is there any particular reason that UX@ 12 must go after UX 232-234, as it's currently? Because looking at the relevant UX issues, I can't see one, but I don't want to risk another cross-reference chain I've missed - especially since I don't have all the Evolutionary War Annuals! If this is doable, then definitely move UX 232 and on to after W2 8 whatever else happens.

As for UX@ 12 in that instance... I've checked and checked. At no point is Psylocke's armour important to the plot, and nor is it referenced in dialogue (it *is* mentioned, and its' use attributed to Psylocke not being injured after being thrown through a wall with Colossus in UX 232). I would be happier writing the appearance of the armour in UX@ 12 off as an art error and moving that backward relative to W2, and thus placing it immediately between W2 3 & 4, rather than slicing-and-dicing W2 7. Either way, something has to give, and that would leave the basic order as:

UX@ 12
H2 350
A@ 17
H2 351-352
W2 4-8
UX 232-234

So Doot, tell me why that's impossible

[Oh, and the reference is to "last month", not "a month ago", Doot. I'm going to do a Paul B, and say that W2 5 takes place at the end of a month, and W2 8 is at the start of the following month. ]