Spec Spidey v2 #21 and the Kingpin

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Spec Spidey v2 #21 and the Kingpin

Post by JephYork »

What did we end up deciding about the placement of Spectacular Spider-Man v2 #21? This is the issue where Spidey, Dr. Strange, the Black Cat, Archangel and the FF play poker -- and the Kingpin crashes the party.

As I recall, there was some problems with placing it where it was published -- as at that time, Kingpin was either blind, or thought dead, or out of the country, or in jail, or some combination of the four. Did we come to a decision about where it SHOULD go?

The Spidey issue was published in January 2005, and Daredevil v2 #26 (which I think was the issue that kicked off the Kingpin's "unavailable period") came out in December 2001. Pushing Spec Spidey #21 back OVER THREE YEARS seems like a huge stretch, but is it do-able? The only chronology reference I can find is that Spidey claims to "keep running into this gang of mimes". I guess this issue has to be after the mime adventures, at least -- but when are they?

Also, if pushing it back three years isn't viable, what's the alternative? When, AFTER that point, did the Kingpin rise back to enough of a position of prominence that he could crash that party? How far FORWARD would we have to push the issue to make the Kingpin's appearance viable? (And, at that point would we get into Civil War nonsense, or anything that would make the other characters unavailable?)

What are our options?

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Re: Spec Spidey v2 #21 and the Kingpin

Post by Col_Fury »

Didn't we figure Kingpin was out on bail and that it happened roughly when published, post-Disassembled, pre-New Avengers?(it came out the same month as New Avengers #1) Anyone remember for sure?

And the mimes thing, if I remember right, comes from earlier in the same volume of Spectacular.
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Re: Spec Spidey v2 #21 and the Kingpin

Post by Somebody »

Col_Fury wrote:And the mimes thing, if I remember right, comes from earlier in the same volume of Spectacular.
Don't they come from the silent issue of PP:SM2?

*will check Archives when he gets the chance over the other thing*
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Re: Spec Spidey v2 #21 and the Kingpin

Post by JephYork »

Out on bail, eh? I don't recall his sequence of events well enough to know if that's possible ... hmm.

The mimes were in PP:SM #21 and 38. #38 was the silent issue ... as was Daredevil #28, three issues into the "Kingpin becomes unavailable" arc. It's possible we could push PP:SM #38 back a bit (relatively speaking), and finagle this into occuring just after #38, and just before DD #26. Which would place Archangel's appearance circa X #121, the other silent issue ... at which point he was still blue-skinned. Hmm, we could claim "image inducer"...

Bail, eh?

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Re: Spec Spidey v2 #21 and the Kingpin

Post by Somebody »

Jeph! (Archive 62, Thread 40) wrote:Where does that SSM2 issue fall? I presume it's after EXCAL3 #11-14, as Angel mentions that "Xavier sends his regards from Genosha" ... but I have no idea where that lines it up with the rest of the MU, other than "post-Disassembled and shorlty [sic] before HoM", which isn't too helpful.
There's no great consensus in that thread, however [although Russ slapped me down, as it were, for suggesting putting it somewhere other than between SpecSM v2 #20 and #22 :)].

It later comes up again in the huge "Nick Fury, post-HoM" thread [thread 23 in Archive 71] which is where Fury's remembering of the "bail" suggestion appears to have come from...
Posted: 27 Jan 2006 11:13 pm
By Kevin W.
[...]
Moving on, when I read the scene where they were starting to let the Kingpin out of jail, I was like, "Well, this will give us a chance to place Spectacular Spiderman #21, in which Kingpin sits down for a game of poker with the superheroes"...but then the FBI turns around and rearrests Kingpin a few panels later. Now there really isn't a place for Spec. Spiderman #21 to occur, (without rupturing the space/time continuum).
[...]

* * *
Posted: 28 Jan 2006 02:09 am
By jephyork
[...]
As for SSM2 #21 -- could the Kingpin have been let out on parole for good behavior, gone to the poker game, then had his parole revoked or was re-arrested for something off-panel? Possibly even associating with known criminal the Black Cat at the poker game might have been grounds for revoking his parole...

* * *
Posted: 28 Jan 2006 01:33 pm
By Kevin W.
[...]
Well, at the start of the "Murdock Papers" storyline, it's stated that the Feds have been holding Fisk since DD2 50, (when Matt defeated him), but they've never brought Fisk to trial, because they've never found enough evidence to convict Fisk...which would actually mean they've been holding Fisk for over a year illegally.

So I don't think he's out on parole, (as there's never even been a trial)...Maybe he was out on bail in advance of his trial, and after the game in SSM2 #21 he was thrown back in jail for some sort of violation of the terms of his bail.

It doesn't make since, but we've got to find some sort of reason why Kingpin isn't in jail...it's all because of sloppy editing on the part of Marvel.
That's basically it - I can't find any further significant references in the Archives (I leave out Paul B's joking suggestion that the Kingpin in SpecSM2 21 was an LMD)
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Re: Spec Spidey v2 #21 and the Kingpin

Post by JephYork »

Okay -- so, risking a slapping from Russ, it sounds like moving the issue either forwards or backwards may be the way to go.

What's the Kingpin's life like, going forward from this point? Dies he ever get out? What happens to him after that? Does he ever become the "Kingpin of Crime" again -- or, even enough of a mover to be taken seriously at the game?

(Also, remind me why he's not available to appear here JUST before Daredevil defeats him in DD2 #50. Is he still blind or out of the country or something?)

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Re: Spec Spidey v2 #21 and the Kingpin

Post by Somebody »

jephyork wrote:What's the Kingpin's life like, going forward from this point? Dies he ever get out? What happens to him after that? Does he ever become the "Kingpin of Crime" again -- or, even enough of a mover to be taken seriously at the game?
IIRC, he stays in continuously until after Civil War (he's the lead in Civil War: War Crimes, where he does a deal with Stark to get out by helping catch Cap & co... then double-crosses Stark and effectively uses Iron Man & co to knock out Hammerhead and his gang. He then arranges for the sniper that ends up shooting Aunt May and gets beaten up by black-costumed Spider-Man while still in jail in ASM. Then Daredevil gets him out on condition he leaves the country, and then he comes back briefly for Whedon's Runaways to "tie up some business affairs"). He still has a certain influence while still on the inside, as CW:WC and ASM show, but he couldn't drop by a poker game.
jephyork wrote:(Also, remind me why he's not available to appear here JUST before Daredevil defeats him in DD2 #50. Is he still blind or out of the country or something?)
Kevin's analysis of DD2 46-50 is in Archive 39 (and #41-45 is in Archive 34)
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Re: Spec Spidey v2 #21 and the Kingpin

Post by JephYork »

Okay -- so, way back before DD2 #26 it must be. Slap away, Russ.

What does this mean for the guest-stars? Archangel, as I said, must now be using an image inducer. What about the FF, Dr. Strange and Wong, and the Black Cat?

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Re: Spec Spidey v2 #21 and the Kingpin

Post by Somebody »

Actually...
A guy with the initials JY wrote:...the Kingpin has been blind for three months at the time of #26-34...
If the Kingpin was blinded by Echo in DD2 15, didn't recover his sight until after he was "killed" in DD2 34, and was beaten up by DD and didn't regain his "throne" in the attempt culminating in DD2 50... well... was he blind in the SpecSM issue being talked about? Do I even need to ask?

[Howsabout we say it was Morph, because the Kingpin Had to show up at that poker game, and with him unavailable the Exiles stepped in...? :p]
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Re: Spec Spidey v2 #21 and the Kingpin

Post by JLH »

Somebody wrote:[Howsabout we say it was Morph, because the Kingpin Had to show up at that poker game, and with him unavailable the Exiles stepped in...? :p]
Was Daredevil around? I recently read, what was it, Amazing Spider-Man 288 or so (during the "Gang War" storyline), where he dressed up in a full body Kingpin costume and pretended to be him! Maybe he got it out of moth balls and decided to play a prank on his fellow heroes?
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Re: Spec Spidey v2 #21 and the Kingpin

Post by Col_Fury »

Somebody wrote:If the Kingpin was blinded by Echo in DD2 15, didn't recover his sight until after he was "killed" in DD2 34, and was beaten up by DD and didn't regain his "throne" in the attempt culminating in DD2 50... well... was he blind in the SpecSM issue being talked about? Do I even need to ask?
No, the Kingpin was not blind. He had to see his cards for the poker game, after all.

If we were to push this back to before DD2 15, at the latest it would be between ASM2 4 & 5. Which were published in 1999. The FF were in different costumes back then, as was Angel, who was blue at the time. And it's six years out of order.

All the characters in Spectacular #21 line up with their status quos from early 2005 except Kingpin, who's supposed to be in jail. I see no reason why he can't be out on parole. And if the only way to get around that is to push it six years out of sequence, which requires us to ignore the appearances of half of the characters appearing...

I'd rather come up with an explanation for one character (Kingpin) and stick to publication order, than to push something out of order, which requires either explanations for four characters (Angel, Mr. Fantastic, Human Torch & Invisible Woman) or 'art error', when it fairly obviously wasn't intended to occur around comics from 1999.
Posted: 28 Jan 2006 02:09 am
By jephyork
[...]
As for SSM2 #21 -- could the Kingpin have been let out on parole for good behavior, gone to the poker game, then had his parole revoked or was re-arrested for something off-panel? Possibly even associating with known criminal the Black Cat at the poker game might have been grounds for revoking his parole...
That works for me.
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Re: Spec Spidey v2 #21 and the Kingpin

Post by JephYork »

More importantly, pushing it back that far means that he wouldn't have met the mime gang yet. So that's out.

Drat, I'd forgotten that Kingpin was ALREADY blind by the time of DD2 #26. I'll have to get a copy of DD2 #50, and refresh my memory as to whether or not there's a wee little gap somewhere that Kingpin could slip away to play a poker game in. But failing that, it does indeed look like we'll have to go with the "bail" rationale.

I suppose it makes more sense than claiming (as the comics seemed to have done) that Kingpin was held without bail for a year without a trial...

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Re: Spec Spidey v2 #21 and the Kingpin

Post by Russ Chappell »

jephyork wrote:Okay -- so, way back before DD2 #26 it must be. Slap away, Russ.
Too busy to do any slapping right now. I'll get back to you, next week.


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Re: Spec Spidey v2 #21 and the Kingpin

Post by Col_Fury »

DD2 50 was published in 2003, a year and three months before Spectacular #21. And then in DD2 76-81, "the Murdock Papers" arc, was published in 2005-2006, starting ten months after Spectacular #21 was released.

In DD2 50, the majority of the issue is Daredevil beating the crap out of Fisk, picking up directly from the end of DD2 49. He's then revealed to be in Federal custody in "the Murdock papers".

So yeah, parole seems to be the best option.
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Re: Spec Spidey v2 #21 and the Kingpin

Post by Russ Chappell »

jephyork wrote:But failing that, it does indeed look like we'll have to go with the "bail" rationale.
Col_Fury wrote:So yeah, parole seems to be the best option.
Which one? Parole and bail are two different things.
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