Please help me figure out how this makes sense!!!

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Please help me figure out how this makes sense!!!

Post by Spider-Man »

So I just started getting into Avengers recently, and for the past few weeks I've been trying to catch up on all the different Avengers series from Civil War on. Generally, I've been trying to read everything in order, but lately that's been damn near impossible...

The problems started with Mighty Avengers 1-6. Now, this story arc is supposed to be the Mighty Avengers' first mission together, and just to hammer that in, the story specifies that the battles against Mole Man and Ultron occur only 14 minutes after the team meets for the first time. At the end of the story, a still-hospitalized Tony Stark gets a visit from Spider-Woman, who's carrying the corpse of Skrull Elektra, which the New Avengers picked up in NA 27-31. The problem is, the Mighty Avengers appear during NA 27-31, even though it apparently takes place before the Mighty Avengers' first mission in MA 1-6.

I asked about this on the forums I usually frequent, hoping there'd be an official answer to this problem, or at least a no-prize worthy fan explanation. Instead, the closest thing I got was someone's suggestion that "maybe Tony had a relapse." Okay, that kinda sorta works: When Tony first comes out of his Ultron-induced coma, that doesn't have to be the same day as when he gets his visit from Spider-Woman, even if it's implied. Now, Tony getting better, rounding up his team, fighting the New Avengers, and then having to go back to the hospital for some reason or another- that's really f***ing unlikely, but still technically possible. And while it's not actually implied in any canonical text, the relapse idea isn't even that far-out if you think about it- Tony did just get his entire body temporarily transformed into an entirely different shape and substance, I can see how that'd leave some lingering complications.

Of course, NA 32 convoluted things even more, as Danny Rand's jet gets caught in a (seemingly) Ultron-caused thunderstorm and then gets downed by a (seemingly) Ultron-caused electrical disturbance. The good news here is that Ultron didn't neccessarily have to be the one behind these disasters, even if it fit in perfectly with what Ultron was doing in MA 1-4. The thunderstorm could've just been a regular thunderstorm, or it could've been a lingering effect of Ultron's tampering with the weather-controlling satellites that continued on for a little while after Ultron and the satellites were destroyed. Similarly, the plane crash didn't have to be a result of Ultron's EMP, especially considering that Danny Rand was flying his jet in the middle of a catastrophic storm. NA 33 almost makes things worse by showing Ultron's broadcast on TV, but the dialogue right after that specifies that Ultron's speech is simply being re-played on the news, and confirming that Ultron's defeat had already occured.

So, by making three or four somehwat far-fetched stretches of continuity, I could mentally figure out a way to kinda sorta fit MA 1-6 and NA 27-33 together. Maybe the way I worked it out wasn't the official way, or even the unofficial way that's been generally accepted by the fans, but no one could tell me what either of those were (if they existed at all), and my way worked pretty well in my head- at least well enough for me to enjoy the books without having to worry about the screwy continuity any further. From there on, things seemed to be getting better in terms of cross-book continuity. NA 33-37 meshed together pretty damn well with MA 7-8.

Unfortunately, that was followed up by the worst continuity train wreck yet- the NA Annual. At the end of the issue, it's a major plot point that Dr. Strange is still reliant on dark magic from when his hands got broken in World War Hulk... Except I was almost certain that WWH took place after the NA/MA arcs in question, since it features the full roster of New Avengers and Mighty Avengers. If WWH took place before those NA/MA storylines, then how did the full team of Mighty Avengers fight against the Hulk when the team hadn't even been formed yet? Even more urgently, how the f*** were Echo and Clint-Ronin part of the New Avengers when Clint hadn't taken the Ronin identity or joined up with the team or even revealed himself to be alive, and Echo was stuck in Japan either fighting against or being a prisoner of the Hand?!
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Re: Please help me figure out how this makes sense!!!

Post by Col_Fury »

For Mighty Avengers 1-6, instead of making three or four wacky assumptions... we re-interpreted the "14 minutes" line. There's no way that can work given the New Avengers arc you mentioned, AND the Mighty Avengers team has to appear in the Fallen Son one-shots before the Ultron battle. Instead, pretend it says "14 days". Or, when you read Mighty Avengers #1, pretend the "14 minutes" is a joke.

"How long have we been a team?" "Not long... 14 minutes? *snicker*"

Once there's a gap between the recruitment flashbacks and the main story, everything else falls into place.

As for the Annual, the Annual DOES pick up directly from the end of New Avegners #37, but there's a gap of time in New Avengers #37(after the New Avengers scene & before the viallins scene). And during this gap WWH occurs, as well as any guest appearances the New Avengers make in other books where Spider-Man is in his black suit. Like you said, Dr. Strange references the WWH crossover in the Annual, and one of the New Avegners comments that they've finally "won a fight for once" when returning from a fight, implying there's been other battles since New Avengers #37. Once there's a gap in New Avengers #37, everything else fals into place.

Be prepared, when you get caught up to Dark Avengers 1-6, this happens again. In issue 5, the flashbacks occur "6 hours" before the main story, but it can't possibly be right. Marvel Boy quits the Dark Avengers in #5, but if the team has only been together for a day, how could he appear WITH the Dark Avengers in Thor #600, the All-New Savage She-Hulk miniseries, and the Free Comic Book Day: Avengers issue? He couldn't, so there has to be a gap in Dark Avengers #5 to accomodate those appearances.

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Re: Please help me figure out how this makes sense!!!

Post by Spider-Man »

I guess your explanation for Mighty Avengers makes sense, the only problem is that you have to ignore all the dialouge referring to the Mighty Avengers being on their first mission together and the narration boxes that specify that various flashbacks took place "X minutes before Mole Man's attack," not to mention the giant "AVENGERS INITIATIVE- DAY 1" box. Still, I suppose it requires way less suspension of disbelief than my long series of unlikely explanations. (I haven't read the Fallen Son one-shots, so I don't know why they'd have to take place after the Mighty Avengers' formation and before their battle with Ultron, but I'll take your word for it.)

After looking back at NA 37 and the NA Annual, I honestly can't find any room for even the slightest time gap. In fact, I couldn't find room for a time gap anywhere between NA 27 and the Annual. (Believe me, I'd been trying; the main reason I came here looking for answers is that I just couldn't do it on my own.) The New Avengers go to Japan, Spider-Woman sees Tony Stark as soon as they get back, Wolverine fights to Hood that night, then the Symbiote Invasion comes the next day and they all go to deal with the Hood's gang afterwards... there really doesn't seem to be any room for a gap. And I always kinda assumed that the New Avengers were coming back from their last fight with the Hood in the beginning of the NA Annual.

All of this makes me wonder: How did Bendis make these screw-ups if he was writing both books? And what made him think it was a good idea to make a story spread out over 11 months in real-time take place within only three to five days in-universe? Or that World War Hulk of all things could take place off-camera somewhere right in the middle of such a tightly packed story?!

EDIT: By the way, just noticed your welcome, thanks!
Last edited by Spider-Man on Wed Oct 21, 2009 10:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Please help me figure out how this makes sense!!!

Post by Paul Bourcier »

Spider-Man wrote:
All of this makes me wonder: How did Bendis make these screw-ups if he was writing both books?
Ah, Bendis. Our love affair with his sense of chronology goes way back... :wink:

Spider-Man, you'll find that there are many cases in which we've had to force gaps into stories that weren't specifically written to accommodate such gaps. Yet for the sake of larger chronological issues, we find these gaps are our Occam's Razor solutions.

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Re: Please help me figure out how this makes sense!!!

Post by Spider-Man »

Thanks! So, just to clarify: In the NA Annual, it was probably Bendis' intent to have the New Avengers coming back from the battle with the Hood they had in NA 37, but since that just can't work, we have to assume they're coming back from some other battle. Similarly, I think the reason the Mighty Avengers are away from Avengers Tower at the end of the Annual and in the beginning of NA 38 is because they're supposed to be in Latveria at the time, but I guess they can be coming back from some other adventure too? It certainly seems to be the best solution to the problem, although you'd have to ignore some of the dialogue in NA 38 and 39 implying that the battle with the Hood in NA 37 and the Hood's attack in the NA Annual both happened on the same day.

Also, where exactly would you fit the gap in NA 37 or the NA Annual? When Maria Hill is interrogating the Wrecker, she mentions that his fight with the New Avengers happened earlier that day, and the Hood breaks the Wrecker and presumably the other villians out shortly after that. The Hood also implies that their fight against the New Avengers took place earlier that day. The Helicarrier scene at the start of the NA Annual takes place "15 minutes" (*sigh*) after the villians have all been broken out. After that is the scene where the Hood interrogates Tigra, which would have to be the same day as the attack, since otherwise Tigra coming to save the day later wouldn't make any sense. I guess the gap could take place between the breakout and the Hood's interrogation of Tigra, but that'd mean that the Hood and his villian army delayed their attack on the New Avengers for a ridiculously long time. Or you could just ignore Maria Hill's statement at the end of NA 37 that the Wrecker was captured earlier that day, as well as the Hood's comment about how his group "took a hit" earlier that day, but then that'd mean the Hood waited weeks to break out his allies.

I hope I'm not being too nitpicky here, I just want to get an idea of exactly where in this storyline to shoehorn in a gap big enough for all of World War Hulk and its aftermath to take place. And that's not even mentioning the fact that in one of the "Brand New Day" issues of Amazing Spider-Man, Dr. Strange's house is still intact and still the meeting place of the New Avengers, even though Spider-Man's back in his regular costume and his identity is secret again... Or maybe I'm just remembering wrong, it's been a while since I read that one.

As an aside, I really do like Bendis' work and I think he's a great writer, especially when it comes to dialogue... it's just frustrating to deal with so many blatant and obvious continuity paradoxes.

Thanks for the warm welcome!
Last edited by Spider-Man on Thu Oct 22, 2009 1:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Please help me figure out how this makes sense!!!

Post by Col_Fury »

Spider-Man wrote:Also, where exactly would you fit the gap in NA 37 or the NA Annual?
Between pages 18 & 19 of New Avengers #37.
Spider-Man wrote:I hope I'm not being too nitpicky here
Not at all. We're all about picking nits here. :)
Spider-Man wrote:As an aside, I really do like Bendis' work and I think he's a great writer, especially when it comes to dialogue... it's just frustrating to deal with so many blatant and obvious continuity paradoxes.
Same here. I really dig Bendis' stuff. As for his paradoxes... hey, it gives us something to do, right? It wouldn't be worth it if it was easy! :)
Spider-Man wrote:Thanks for the warm welcome!
Thanks for signing up! It's always good to see new folks! :thumbsup:
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Re: Please help me figure out how this makes sense!!!

Post by Spider-Man »

Col_Fury wrote:Between pages 18 & 19 of New Avengers #37.
That works. Just out of curiousity, though, any reason the gap couldn't take place between pages 2 and 3 of the NA Annual? The difference would be that the Hood would be holding off on attacking the New Avengers after he broke out his allies, as opposed to holding off on breaking out his allies and then attacking the New Avengers right away. It seems to mesh better with the dialogue referring to the Wrecker's interrogation and escape taking place the same day as his capture, but I'm coming to accept that sometimes dialogue referring to specific timeframes can't always be accepted at face value.
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Re: Please help me figure out how this makes sense!!!

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Spider-Man wrote:And that's not even mentioning the fact that in one of the "Brand New Day" issues of Amazing Spider-Man, Dr. Strange's house is still intact and still the meeting place of the New Avengers, even though Spider-Man's back in his regular costume and his identity is secret again... Or maybe I'm just remembering wrong, it's been a while since I read that one.
You're remembering right (it's not until the next SM appearance in NA following the Annual that the BND status quo is enforced there).

Actually, I don't recall if we ever resolved that one. (I wanted to ignore OMD and preserve the shift in Dr Strange's status quo, and Paul B wanted to do the opposite. It's basically one or the other.) What did we actually say in the end, after Last Defenders #3 and so forth?
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Re: Please help me figure out how this makes sense!!!

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Somebody wrote: You're remembering right (it's not until the next SM appearance in NA following the Annual that the BND status quo is enforced there).

Actually, I don't recall if we ever resolved that one. (I wanted to ignore OMD and preserve the shift in Dr Strange's status quo, and Paul B wanted to do the opposite. It's basically one or the other.) What did we actually say in the end, after Last Defenders #3 and so forth?
You know, I have no idea. I checked the issues of ASM in question and that definitely is Dr. Strange and Wong back at the Sanctum Sanctorum, with Spider-Man and Wolverine visiting. One thing I did just notice was that none of the other New Avengers were present, so the scene doesn't necessarily imply that the Sanctum Sanctorum is still the team's meeting place. Maybe Dr. Strange specifically invited Spidey and Wolvie there to get them to deal with the threat that he'd foreseen, or for some other reason? The only problem with that is that he'd left the Sanctum Sanctorum as of the NA Annual. Did he and Wong ever return there at any point after that?
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Re: Please help me figure out how this makes sense!!!

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Spider-Man wrote:The only problem with that is that he'd left the Sanctum Sanctorum as of the NA Annual. Did he and Wong ever return there at any point after that?
No (has Strange even met Wong since NA@ 2?), he goes into retreat and apparently stays there. I referenced Last Defenders #3, where a near-powerless Strange has to be saved by Daimon Hellstrom after he returns to NYC to answer what he sees as a challenge from Nightmare, and he's camping out in the woods in Thor #602, apparently set shortly before the arc where he gives up the Eye of Agamotto and Cloak of Levitation.
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Re: Please help me figure out how this makes sense!!!

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What about the Sanctum Sanctorum itself? Has it been seen at all since the NA Annual, aside from in ASM 555? The end of the NA Annual seemed to imply that the Sanctum was at least partially destroyed, and that SHIELD was now aware that it was the New Avengers' meeting place. Did that change at any point since then?
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