Fall of the Hulks: Alpha

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Paul Bourcier
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Fall of the Hulks: Alpha

Post by Paul Bourcier »

I'd like to try to place the various scenes in this week's FALL OF THE HULKS: ALPHA and see how they might fall in various character chronologies. The scenes are, in chronological order:

pages 1-11:
The Intelligencia (Egghead, Wizard, Leader, Mad Thinker and his Awesome Android, and Red Ghost and his Super Apes) infiltrate the Eternals’ Antarctic base, undetected by Zuras, Ikaris, Makkari, and Thena. They remove texts and artifacts stored there from the Library at Alexandria and deliver the texts to Dr. Doom in Latveria. They conclude that another cache of Alexandrian items can be found in Wakanda.

page 12, panel 1:
3 scenes in one panel -- Leader "recovers" Red Ghost; Mad Thinker with the Leader's head on a large gray body; Leader "reconstitutes" Absorbing Man, Sandman, and Klaw.

page 12, panel 2:
The Intelligencia (Egghead, Mad Thinker, Wizard, Leader) infiltrate Project Pegasus, only to discover that their quarry, the Nth Projector has already been stolen by Thundra. This must occur shortly after M/TIO 58.

page 13, panel 1:
The death of Egghead, as shown in A 230.

page 13, panel 2-page 14, panel 1:
Wizard, Mad Thinker, Red Ghost, and Dr. Doom ponder the demise of Egghead, but the Leader presents the group with his replacement, Modok. Leader estimates that the group will be ready to invade Wakanda in This must occur shortly after A 230.

pages 15-16:
“Three months, eleven days, and 3.871 hours later,” Red Ghost, Wizard, Mad Thinker, Leader, and Modok sneak into Wakanda and steal technology for funneling cosmic energies. They bring it to Doom’s castle, where they set up a tachyon beam and point it into space.

page 17, panel 1:
The beam attracts the Beyonder; this is a scene of the Beyonder in white jacket looming over Tigra, Vision, Spidey, Cap, Scarlet Witch, Iron Man, and Dr. Doom. From sometime during SECRET WARS II.

page 17, panel 2:
Wizard, Red Ghost, and Mad Thinker retrieve the Venom symbiote and stimulate it so it will find a new host. I think this is supposed to be shortly after WOSM 1.

page 17, panel 3-page 18, panel 3:
Wizard, Leader, and Modok occupy Gamma Base, where they have the preserved body of Betty Banner.

page 19:
Having intercepted a transmission between Reed and Stark, Doom reports to the Leader that Reed and Stark are deceiving Banner and that once he’s done with a mission, they’ll send him to a distant world. I believe this is right before H3 89.

page 22, panel 1:
Hulk rages on the planet Sakaar.

page 22, panel 2:
The pro- and anti-registration forces battle during the Civil War. I placed this between CW 6 and 7, as the two forces go at it in Prison 42.

page 22, panel 3:
A shot of Cap's blood-stained torso from CA5 25.

page 23, panel 1-page 28, panel 2:
The Intelligencia (Leader, Red host, Wizard, Mad Thinker, Modok, and Dr. Doom) meet at Doom’s castle. Thinker’s proposal to add Amadeus Cho to their group is shot down. Seeking to capitalize on the mayhem that will ensue when the Hulk is sure to return from space, the group steals the last of the Alexandrian texts from Atlantis, where we see Namor. They return the texts to Latveria, and Doom turns on the group. The Leader flees. Obviously after CA5 25.

page 28, panel 3-page 31:
Confident that Hulk will return from space, Modok arrives at the Leader’s hidden base. With knowledge he gained from the Alexandrian texts, Modok combines gamma and cosmic radiation and turns a subject into Red Hulk and presents him to the Leader. Before World War Hulk.

Plus there are various origin flashbacks throughout this comic, but I'm not sure they contain any new information.

Anyone have thoughts?
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Re: Fall of the Hulks: Alpha

Post by gregorynbaker »

Here is what I figured out

pages 1-11:
I considered the scene where Egghead overlooks the Masters of Evil fighting the Avengers as a flash forward (since Leader is narrating the issue from some future time). As such the placement of the Hulk Robot places it after Eternals I 16 (probably after Eternals I 19, too).
Of course, the Eternals did not move to Antarctica until the Gaiman run, but we can assume they have multiple homes around the world or something.

page 12, panel 1:
Leader "recovers" Red Ghost - after Fantastic Four I 197 (Red Ghost leaps out into space and may have needed help being recovered)
Mad Thinker with the Leader's head on a large gray body (i.e. controlled Awesome Android) - After Marvel Two-in-One I 39, where Mad Thinker is captured.
Leader "reconstitutes" Absorbing Man, Sandman, and Klaw - sometime after Fantastic Four Annual 14 (Sandman), Avengers I 184 (Absorbing Man), and Marvel Two-in-One I 58 (Klaw). As Creel and Klaw have explanations for their returns in their next appearances, Leader must have learned what he needed to know from Klaw (like about the N-th Weapon) and then put him back in his gun. Likewise, Creel could have been left on Easter Island with no memory of Leader having saved him.
Or it's a pastiche of several unrelated events over an inexact period of time.

page 12, panel 2:
"This must occur shortly after M/TIO 58." I agree.

page 13, panel 1:
"The death of Egghead, as shown in A 230." I think it was A 229, but close enough

page 13, panel 2-page 14, panel 1:
"This must occur shortly after A 230." Agree.

pages 15-16:
“Three months, eleven days, and 3.871 hours later,” what it says

page 17, panel 1:
"From sometime during SECRET WARS II." I placed this as a pastiche from Secret Wars I because of the captions describing Doom taking Beyonder's power (and I shocked up Tigra's presence to a coloring error for She-Hulk). But Secret Wars II works too.

page 17, panel 2:
"I think this is supposed to be shortly after WOSM 1." I agree.

page 17, panel 3-page 18, panel 3:
This is where things get wonky. I placed this sometime between Incredible Hulk III 24 (where Abomination is revealed to have poisoned Betty) and Incredible Hulk III 34, when Banner aka "Mr. Green" begins corresponding with "Mr. Blue", who is later revealed to Betty resurrected. However, there is some doubt as to whether anything in Incredible Hulk III 34-76 actually happened (a. because Peter David retconned it in #77-81 and b. because it sucked)). If Betty returns during Fall of the Hulks in a different manner, this can be almost anytime after Incredible Hulk III 24.

page 19:
"I believe this is right before H3 89." agree

page 22, panel 1:
"Hulk rages on the planet Sakaar." I placed this at Incredible Hulk III 92

page 22, panel 2:
"I placed this between CW 6 and 7, as the two forces go at it in Prison 42." agree

page 22, panel 3:
"A shot of Cap's blood-stained torso from CA5 25." agree

page 23, panel 1-page 28, panel 2:
"Obviously after CA5 25." And before Sub-Mariner II(I) 1 and World War Hulk.

page 28, panel 3-page 31:
"Before World War Hulk." agree
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Re: Fall of the Hulks: Alpha

Post by Michael »

Paul Bourcier wrote:page 13, panel 2-page 14, panel 1:
Wizard, Mad Thinker, Red Ghost, and Dr. Doom ponder the demise of Egghead, but the Leader presents the group with his replacement, Modok. Leader estimates that the group will be ready to invade Wakanda in This must occur shortly after A 230.

pages 15-16:
“Three months, eleven days, and 3.871 hours later,” Red Ghost, Wizard, Mad Thinker, Leader, and Modok sneak into Wakanda and steal technology for funneling cosmic energies. They bring it to Doom’s castle, where they set up a tachyon beam and point it into space.
Keep in mind that Doom "dies" in FF 260, so these flashbacks have to take place before then. Incidentally, Wizard is captured by the Avengers in Avengers 235- I wonder if they snuck into Wakanda before or after he was captured. (They could have helped him escape shortly after he was captured.)
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Re: Fall of the Hulks: Alpha

Post by Michael »

gregorynbaker wrote:Here is what I figured out

pages 1-11:
I considered the scene where Egghead overlooks the Masters of Evil fighting the Avengers as a flash forward (since Leader is narrating the issue from some future time). As such the placement of the Hulk Robot places it after Eternals I 16 (probably after Eternals I 19, too).
Of course, the Eternals did not move to Antarctica until the Gaiman run, but we can assume they have multiple homes around the world or something.
Now this is tricky. Eternals 16 was published in October 1977. The Red Ghost is stuck as a scarlet mist between Iron Man 83 (February 1976) and Fantastic Four 197 (August 1978). But FF 197-200 is a continuing story, and in FF 200, Doom is driven insane. He finally regains his sanity in FF Annual 15 in 1980. Note, though, that he doesn't regain control of Latveria until FF 247. This greatly complicates placing that scene after Eternals I 16. The Leader's chronology is an even bigger mess, thanks to Erik Larsen, and I'll get back to that tomorrow.
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Re: Fall of the Hulks: Alpha

Post by Michael »

Now, the Leader's chronology is problematic around this time period. In Marvel Feature 11, the Leader is paralyzed. In Incredible Hulk 224,the Leader explains that he cured his paralysis by transforming into an amnesiac human, which is how he appeared in Hulk 208. Unfortunately, in Wolverine 144, Wolverine tells Dum Dum of an encounter he had with the Leader alongside Hercules and the Deviant Karkas before Logan first met the Hulk. This took place after the events of Marvel Feature 11. The Leader explained that his paralysis had been cured. At the end of the story, the Leader is washed away in a gamma bath designed to turn the Hulk back into Banner. It's implied but not stated that this is how the Leader was turned into the human that he appeared as in Hulk 208. The next issue, it's revealed that the "Wolverine" who was talking to Dum Dum was a Skrull imprinted with Wolverine's memories. So was the Leader telling the truth or the Skrull telling the truth? I can't think of a reason why the Leader would lie, but his memories could have been affected by being turned into an amnesiac human and then back into the Leader. OTOH, it's possible there was some distortion in the process that copied Logan's memories on the Skrull. It should be noted that in Marvel Treasury Edition 26, Logan and Hercules meet, and neither of them mentions a previous encounter. So, we have three possibilities:
(1)The Leader was telling the truth. In that case, he couldn't have appeared anywhere between Marvel Feature 11 (September 1973) and Incredible Hulk 225( July 1978).
(2) The Skrull was telling the truth and the gamma bath turned him back into an amnesiac human. In that case, he couldn't have appeared anywhere since between Wolverine's first meeting with the Hulk (Incredible Hulk 180, July 1974) and Incredible Hulk 225 (July 1978).
(3) The Skrull was telling the truth and the gamma bath DIDN'T turn him into the amnesiac human but he was turned into the amnesiac human some other way. In that case, he couldn't have appeared anywhere between Incredible Hulk 208 (February 1977) and Incredible Hulk 225 (July 1978).
Now, the simplest thing for our purposes would be to assume that (3) is true and pages 1-11 occur before Iron Man 83. We would also have to assume that Iron Man 83 takes place AFTER Eternals 16, even though Eternals 16 was published 20 months later. So pages 1-11 take place between the flashback in Wolverine 144 and Iron Man 83. Is there any reason that wouldn't work?
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Re: Fall of the Hulks: Alpha

Post by gregorynbaker »

That makes sense, Michael. Since Eternals was not meant to be part of 616 when it was first published (thus the Hulk Robot which is causing this trouble in the first place), it should be relatively easy to shift it back by 24 months or so. I believe the first appearance of the Eternals in a regular comic was Thor Annual 7. (Although they have appeared in stories set in the past, Marvel: The Lost Generation for example)
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Re: Fall of the Hulks: Alpha

Post by Paul Bourcier »

Thanks, Michael and Gregory. I figured I was opening up a potential can of worms, because what are the chances of the chronologies of the members of the Intelligencia lining up right over this length of time?

Gregory wrote:
"The death of Egghead, as shown in A 230." I think it was A 229, but close enough
Yup, you're right.

Gregory wrote:
page 22, panel 1:
"Hulk rages on the planet Sakaar." I placed this at Incredible Hulk III 92
Do you mean after Hulk crash lands on Sakaar but before he's attacked?

Gregory wrote:
"From sometime during SECRET WARS II." I placed this as a pastiche from Secret Wars I because of the captions describing Doom taking Beyonder's power (and I shocked up Tigra's presence to a coloring error for She-Hulk). But Secret Wars II works too.
I chalked it up to SWII because of the Beyonder's duds as shown here. But it's a splash panel that I don't think holds new canonical information anyway.


Gregory wrote:
However, there is some doubt as to whether anything in Incredible Hulk III 34-76 actually happened (a. because Peter David retconned it in #77-81 and b. because it sucked)).
:shock: Okay...the whole huge Betty thing aside...the occupancy of Gamma Base by Leader, Wizard, and Modok in pages 17-18 doesn't contradict anything? Is Modok even active during this period?


Michael wrote:
We would also have to assume that Iron Man 83 takes place AFTER Eternals 16, even though Eternals 16 was published 20 months later. So pages 1-11 take place between the flashback in Wolverine 144 and Iron Man 83. Is there any reason that wouldn't work?
Does anyone else have thoughts about Michael's theory?


Also, any comments on possible new material in the origin flashbacks?
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Re: Fall of the Hulks: Alpha

Post by Somebody »

gregorynbaker wrote:
Paul Bourcier wrote:page 23, panel 1-page 28, panel 2:
The Intelligencia (Leader, Red host, Wizard, Mad Thinker, Modok, and Dr. Doom) meet at Doom’s castle. Thinker’s proposal to add Amadeus Cho to their group is shot down. Seeking to capitalize on the mayhem that will ensue when the Hulk is sure to return from space, the group steals the last of the Alexandrian texts from Atlantis, where we see Namor. They return the texts to Latveria, and Doom turns on the group. The Leader flees. Obviously after CA5 25.
And before Sub-Mariner II(I) 1 and World War Hulk.
There's the minor problem here that Atlantis has been destroyed and moved many times over the years - as far back as FF 4, Namor found his people had been forced to move by atomic bomb tests during his amnesia, and it took him some time to find them. The nature of the Alexandrian texts suggests that this is the "original" location of Atlantis.
Paul Bourcier wrote:page 28, panel 3-page 31:
Confident that Hulk will return from space, Modok arrives at the Leader’s hidden base. With knowledge he gained from the Alexandrian texts, Modok combines gamma and cosmic radiation and turns a subject into Red Hulk and presents him to the Leader. Before World War Hulk.
He hasn't turned the "subject" INTO Rulk yet. That's just a projection of what he intends to do, and the probable result - the strong implication is that it's someone they... arrange... to be in the vicinity of Hulk at the end of WWH, when Stark uses the military satellites MODOK mentions on Hulk.
Paul Bourcier wrote:
gregorynbaker wrote:However, there is some doubt as to whether anything in Incredible Hulk III 34-76 actually happened (a. because Peter David retconned it in #77-81 and b. because it sucked)).
:shock: Okay...the whole huge Betty thing aside...
Which IS a huge thing. Especially since she was referred to as believed-dead a couple of times during IH 604, and the Leader's narration strongly implies she's still on-ice as of when he's narrating this (in his degenerated form near the end). Current fan theory from what I've seen has it that:
Spoiler:
Red Hulk is General Ross - with the Ross appearances during Loeb's run being an LMD, since they've been worked in already - and Red She-Hulk is Betty, restored to life as such by the Leader and MODOK.
Paul Bourcier wrote:...the occupancy of Gamma Base by Leader, Wizard, and Modok in pages 17-18 doesn't contradict anything?
If we're not throwing out the BJ run - or large chunks of it - as one great big Nightmare, there's the little issue that Leader appears in his PAD/Todd McF body in this scene, and scenes which take place after H3 76, but was just a head in a jar at the end of the BJ run.

At this point, I really think the Hulk writers are following through on PAD's retcon, at least in the major part.
Paul Bourcier wrote: Is Modok even active during this period?
I don't think MODOK was appearing anywhere at this time, but he wasn't actively out-of-commission, just out-of-favour.

The bigger problem with MODOK is actually the last scene. SVTU: MODOK's 11 takes place after WWH (it's referenced) and has MODOK with no backup and living in a garage stinking of cat pee until the end of the story. I'm not entirely sure how that works at all with IH 600 and FOTH:A. He doesn't even reclaim AIM at the end, but starts up his own organisation with uniforms templated on what he wears.
Paul Bourcier wrote:Does anyone else have thoughts about Michael's theory?
The problem with the Hulk robot is that it already has a chronology. The Eternals DIDN'T take it home with them, Doom found it in the sewer where it was left by the Eternals at the end of that Eternals v1 story - and note that the Intel pointedly gave ONLY the Library to Doom to hold, not anything else. It's going to turn up later in FOTH, being used by Leader & MODOK against Doom - and used the Hulkbot sans cosmic power source (or, rather, a Doombot used it per FF 350. Retcons within retcons.) in FF 320/IH 350 against the Thing to buy the Grey Hulk some breathing space. It apparently later turned up in a Cloak and Dagger story which I haven't read.

Bottom line, I think it's going to need to be a second Cosmic Hulkbot, rather than the one from Eternals v1 #16.
.
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Re: Fall of the Hulks: Alpha

Post by Michael »

Somebody wrote: The problem with the Hulk robot is that it already has a chronology. The Eternals DIDN'T take it home with them, Doom found it in the sewer where it was left by the Eternals at the end of that Eternals v1 story - and note that the Intel pointedly gave ONLY the Library to Doom to hold, not anything else. It's going to turn up later in FOTH, being used by Leader & MODOK against Doom - and used the Hulkbot sans cosmic power source (or, rather, a Doombot used it per FF 350. Retcons within retcons.) in FF 320/IH 350 against the Thing to buy the Grey Hulk some breathing space. It apparently later turned up in a Cloak and Dagger story which I haven't read.

Bottom line, I think it's going to need to be a second Cosmic Hulkbot, rather than the one from Eternals v1 #16.
I think we're supposed to assume that the Intelligencia left a duplicate in its place, like the Monica-didn't-destroy-the-Doomsday-Man-but-a-duplicate retcon.
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Re: Fall of the Hulks: Alpha

Post by Paul Bourcier »

Somebody wrote:
At this point, I really think the Hulk writers are following through on PAD's retcon, at least in the major part.
So are we prepared to cast out H3 34-76 as non-canonical?

I think Michael has a point about the Intelligencia's replacement of the "real" Hulk robot with a fake. They were doing that with other artifacts.

So if that whole range of Hulk issues are discarded, the above robot interpretation stands, and the Alexandrian texts in Atlantis is explained away, is Modok the only potential problem, as Somebody pointed out?


Somebody wrote:
He hasn't turned the "subject" INTO Rulk yet. That's just a projection of what he intends to do, and the probable result - the strong implication is that it's someone they... arrange... to be in the vicinity of Hulk at the end of WWH, when Stark uses the military satellites MODOK mentions on Hulk.
Ah, thanks for that clarification. And the fan theory about who Red Hulk and Red She-Hulk are is certainly interesting!
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Re: Fall of the Hulks: Alpha

Post by gregorynbaker »

I re-examined all the Hulk Robot issues. Just to recap the pre-FOTH:A stuff

E 14 = A bunch of college students make a Hulk robot as a mascot. Dean/prof. shuts it down. The Uni-Mind imbues it with cosmic powers.
E 15 = The robot runs amok fighting Ikaris
E 16 = Zuras smashes the robot, causing it to leak away all the cosmic power. It digs under ground, trying to crawl to safety until it hits a gas main and explodes
H2 350-FB = Doom/doombot finds the robot broken in the sewers and repairs it
FF 320 = At the end of a fight between Hulk and Thing, the robot appears
H2 350 = As Thing fights the robot, the doombot talks with Hulk. Thing realizes it is a robot and rips out its chest.
C&D3 9-FB = Doom sends Jester to deal with Cloak and Dagger during Acts of Vengeance. One of the things he gets is the Hulk Robot. (NOTE: Jester also approached Leader, who sent Rock instead).
C&D3 8 = On last page, Jester and team confront Cloak and Dagger
C&D3 9 = The Avengers come to help. She-Hulk ends up fighting the robot, who has been tricked out with punching gloves coming from neck and other silly devices by Jester. She-Hulk completely rips it apart.

That all being said, there should be no reason why Leader should be interested in a college project. The Eternals never really had a chance to retrieve the original and leave a copy. The most logical conclusion is that Ajak made a better, more powerful version to commemorate their victory or something. And this is what the Intelligencia stole.

As for MODOK, he loses control of AIM in MM2 II 17. Then, after World War Hulk, he gathers his "super villain team up" to get revenge on Monica. At the end, he is surrounded by minions in a grand hideout. Therefore either this last scene is a delusion OR the cat-pee warehouse was part of his overly elaborate (though successful) scheme for revenge. I am leaning on the last one. He was never in as dire straights as it seemed. His newly costumed minions became AIM again once he defeated Monica (though she survived). Then he and AIM played their role in the events depicted in H2 600. He could have easily approached Leader with plans for Red Hulk as he was never in so dire straights as SVT:M11 1 seemed to indicate.

Does that work?
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Re: Fall of the Hulks: Alpha

Post by Paul Bourcier »

Personally, I like the theory that Modok of Modok's 11 was a Skrull. :twisted:
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Re: Fall of the Hulks: Alpha

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gregorynbaker wrote:As for MODOK, he loses control of AIM in MM2 II 17. Then, after World War Hulk, he gathers his "super villain team up" to get revenge on Monica. At the end, he is surrounded by minions in a grand hideout. Therefore either this last scene is a delusion OR the cat-pee warehouse was part of his overly elaborate (though successful) scheme for revenge. I am leaning on the last one. He was never in as dire straights as it seemed.
Thing is, Monica paid him $1,000,000,000 (i.e., One Billion Dollars) for the Hypernova at the end of MODOK's 11. That's how he went from garage to hideout and minionless to minion master so quickly, ja?
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Re: Fall of the Hulks: Alpha

Post by Somebody »

Bumping this back up because of this (from the preview for IH 610): http://www.comicbookresources.com/asset ... 45_pg5.jpg & http://www.comicbookresources.com/asset ... 45_pg6.jpg

Betty states outright that turning her into Red She-Hulk was a key piece of the process which restored her to life, during which they brainwashed her. As I said after they started hinting at this turn of events in FotH:Alpha, this seems like a deliberate choice by the writers to continue/confirm PAD's retcon that much of Bruce Jones' Hulk run was All A Nightmare.

Are we happy with tossing all the issues from H3 34-76 that Betty/"Mr Blue" appeared in? That guts the run.
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