Defenders in Rom 65 and 66 and Sub-M2 3

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Defenders in Rom 65 and 66 and Sub-M2 3

Post by Michael » Wed Jan 06, 2010 11:12 pm

Currently, the Defenders' appearances in Rom 65 and 66 and Sub-Mariner (2nd series) #3 are placed between Defenders 130 and 131. Aside from the fact that Defenders 130 was published a YEAR before Rom 65, this doesn't work. In the Beast's chronology, Defenders 131 takes place before Code of Honor 3, which takes place during Secret Wars. Rom 65-66 CANNOT take place before Secret Wars, since they take place after Storm loses her powers in Uncanny 185, which is after Secret Wars. As for Sub-M2 3, it takes place after Alpha Flight 16, in which Logan knows of Guardian's death. Logan found that out in Kitty Pryde and Wolverine 4, which is also after Secret Wars.

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Re: Defenders in Rom 65 and 66 and Sub-M2 3

Post by metaldragon » Fri Jan 08, 2010 1:04 pm

I'll have to re-check my issues of the Defenders but there are some long storylines with no breaks where things change for Gargoyle and Moondragon which place the ROM and Sub-Mariner issues earlier in the Defenders run. Gargoyle is kidnapped and looses his hand at one point and Moondragon looses the power restraining headband and changes from her usual green costume to a new, black & white one- which means those issues of ROM and Sub-Mariner have to come before those events take place (Gargoyle still has both hands in the ROM & Sub-Mariner issues and Moondragon is still wearing her green costume & has the headband Odin put on her to restrain her powers whenever her motives aren't pure).

As a side note, Beast, Angel & Iceman appear at Cyclops & Madelyn's wedding in UX at some point around there too.
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Re: Defenders in Rom 65 and 66 and Sub-M2 3

Post by Michael » Fri Jan 08, 2010 6:22 pm

Well, the Marvel Appendix places these stories between Defenders 139 and 140. The problem, as you've noted, is that Moondragon's headband falls off in Defenders 139 and Isaac's hand is still regrowing at that point. But neither Isaac's hand nor Heather's headband is referenced in the dialogue in those issues, so I'm tempted to just ignore them as art errors. Rom 65 and 66 have a LOT of art errors. And we've ignored them in other cases. For example, in Rom 65, Dane is on his winged horse and Hercules is nearby. But in Avengers 254, which takes place after Dane's horse loses its wings, Herc and Dane meet, and the dialogue makes it clear this is their second meeting. (The first was Avengers 100.) We decided to put Rom 65 after Avengers 254, and write off the winged horse as an art error.
The other possibility would be to move Defenders 131-133 after Avengers Annual 13 in the Beast's chronology, but I'm not sure if that would work.

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Re: Defenders in Rom 65 and 66 and Sub-M2 3

Post by metaldragon » Sat Jan 09, 2010 12:24 am

Ah, found it: before Defenders 134. That is the issue where Gargoyle is kidnapped. It begins a storyline that continues with no break where all the team members are together until Defenders 139.
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Re: Defenders in Rom 65 and 66 and Sub-M2 3

Post by metaldragon » Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:01 am

I just did a careful re-reading of the "New" Defenders issues and in DEF 142 discovered this:

Bobby: "Something's strange, Hank--This weather is really strange--even the wind smells funny. * It makes me uncomfortable."
Footnote: " * For the inside scoop on this, see the current issue of ROM."

The "current issue" of ROM (April 1985 is the date on DEF 142) happens to be... ROM 65. So it appears there is a small break between DEF 142 and 143 where ROM 65-66 was meant to go. So, for some reason Moondragon dons her old green outfit and a headband(!) to fight the Dire Wraiths. Definitely art error then. At least Gargoyle's hand is regrown by that point...!

Now, all we need to do is figure out where SUB-M2 3 belongs. Does it take place after ROM 65-66? If so, it has to take place in this same small gap of time as the ROM issues because Moondragon is suffering from the mutant plant infection (she caught in DEF 141) during DEF 142-143 which causes her to be taken over by the evil Dragon of the Moon in DEF 143 in a storyline that doesn't conclude until DEF 152 (where her body, along with Valkyrie's & Gargoyle's, is destroyed).

The listings that need to be changed then are:

Angel, Beast, Cloud (BTS?), Gargoyle, Iceman, Moondragon, Valkyrie.

DEF 142
ROM 65
ROM 66
DEF 143
Last edited by metaldragon on Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Defenders in Rom 65 and 66 and Sub-M2 3

Post by metaldragon » Wed Jan 27, 2010 2:45 am

If SUB-M2 3 takes place before ROM 65, the absolutely last spot it could take place for the Defenders would be in DEF 139 between pages 6 & 7 during the "several days later" gap. Moondragon still has Odin's headband on her and is wearing her green costume (& Gargoyle's hands are not shown).
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Re: Defenders in Rom 65 and 66 and Sub-M2 3

Post by lkseitz » Wed Jan 27, 2010 8:24 pm

metaldragon wrote:I just did a careful re-reading of the "New" Defenders issues and in DEF 142 discovered this:

Bobby: "Something's strange, Hank--This weather is really strange--even the wind smells funny. * It makes me uncomfortable."
Footnote: " * For the inside scoop on this, see the current issue of ROM."
Guess I'm going to look for DEF 142 on my next trip to the comic book shop. Thanks.
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Re: Defenders in Rom 65 and 66 and Sub-M2 3

Post by metaldragon » Sun Feb 07, 2010 1:27 pm

Has anyone done an overview of this era? How does Sub-M2 3 fit in the overall continuity of the Marvel Universe at this point? Does it take place before or after the ROM issues? Anyone?
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Re: Defenders in Rom 65 and 66 and Sub-M2 3

Post by Chris McCarver » Sun Feb 07, 2010 10:00 pm

The only character besides the Defenders to appear both in the Rom issues and SUB-M2 3 was Namor himself. His MCP listing has the Rom issues immediately preceding the SUB-M2 miniseries.
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Re: Defenders in Rom 65 and 66 and Sub-M2 3

Post by metaldragon » Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:10 am

Chris McCarver wrote:The only character besides the Defenders to appear both in the Rom issues and SUB-M2 3 was Namor himself. His MCP listing has the Rom issues immediately preceding the SUB-M2 miniseries.
This is incorrect. The Fantastic Four also appear and possibly a few other heroes (forget off the top of my head) watching the broadcast of his speech to the United Nations.

Edit: Never mind. Just re-read your post. They don't appear in ROM do they? How odd. I'll have to recheck the Namor issue when I get home to see if I'm misremembering any other heroes.
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Re: Defenders in Rom 65 and 66 and Sub-M2 3

Post by Michael » Mon Feb 08, 2010 6:19 pm

The FF didn't appear in Rom because Reed and Sue were being held captive by Mephisto and Johnny and Ben were arguing over Alicia in FF 277.

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Re: Defenders in Rom 65 and 66 and Sub-M2 3

Post by metaldragon » Tue Feb 09, 2010 9:17 am

Michael wrote:The FF didn't appear in Rom because Reed and Sue were being held captive by Mephisto and Johnny and Ben were arguing over Alicia in FF 277.
I thought She-Hulk was part of the team by that point? She appears to be in Sub-M2 3...
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Re: Defenders in Rom 65 and 66 and Sub-M2 3

Post by Michael » Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:11 pm

She-Hulk was part of the team. FF 277 also explains why she couldn't be there in Rom 65 and 66.

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Re: Defenders in Rom 65 and 66 and Sub-M2 3

Post by metaldragon » Wed Feb 10, 2010 10:50 pm

Dr. Strange and Peter Parker also appear in Sub-M2 3 watching the same speech by Namor, (as well as the Fantastic Four [Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Human Torch, & She-Hulk] and the Defenders [Valkyrie, Moondragon, Iceman, Beast, Angel, & Gargoyle]). Interesting that Dr. Strange & Spider-Man don't appear in ROM either.

I notice the cover date for "Prince Namor, the Sub-Mariner #3 (of 4)" is Nov 1984. Is there a reason why it's been placed after ROM 65-66 (Apr & May 1985)? If the only things connecting the two stories are Namor and the Defenders, it might make more sense to place it before. For the Defenders the best place would be in the "several days" gap during DEF 139 before Moondragon looses Odin's power damping headband and creates her new black & white costume. Since Gargoyle's arms are not shown, his missing hand and bandaged stump is moot.

Otherwise, if it MUST go after the two ROM issues, the placement for the Defenders would be between ROM 66 & DEF 143.
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Re: Defenders in Rom 65 and 66 and Sub-M2 3

Post by lkseitz » Sun Feb 14, 2010 11:17 pm

metaldragon wrote:Dr. Strange and Peter Parker also appear in Sub-M2 3 watching the same speech by Namor, (as well as the Fantastic Four [Mr. Fantastic, Invisible Woman, Human Torch, & She-Hulk] and the Defenders [Valkyrie, Moondragon, Iceman, Beast, Angel, & Gargoyle]). Interesting that Dr. Strange & Spider-Man don't appear in ROM either.
Doctor Strange was busy with the Fantastic Four in FF #277/DRSTR2 #75 during ROM #65-66. The real world reason Spider-Man doesn't appear in ROM is that Ditko refused to draw him. (Spidey appeared as a head on a ROM cover, but Ditko didn't draw him, the inker added him.) AFAIK, what Spidey was doing during Worldmerge is still unrevealed today. Not that fans are clamoring to know.
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