Spider-Man and the Secret Wars

[lkseitz]

I can't find any past discussion of Spider-Man and the Secret Wars. Was it just assumed by everyone that it was out of continuity or did no one care? After #1, it looked to me like it was up in the air. Issue #2, however, completely contradicts She-Hulk (vol. 3) #10 (S-H3 10) on Titania's origin. So I'd say it is out of continuity, but I was biased that way in the first place.

[Michael]

Issue 1 changes the person taunting the Hulk while they were under the mountain from Reed to Peter. That's a relatively small discrepancy, and I'd be tempted to ignore that as artistic license.
Here's the thing about Titania's origin from She-Hulk 10- it's not Skeeter remembering her past, it's Zoma telling the story of Skeeter's past to the Champion. So there's room to claim Zoma was an unreliable narrator.
I haven't got Spider-Man and the Secret Wars 2 - could you summarize the issue and explain why you feel it is out of continuity?

[lkseitz]

Here's the thing about Titania's origin from She-Hulk 10- it's not Skeeter remembering her past, it's Zoma telling the story of Skeeter's past to the Champion. So there's room to claim Zoma was an unreliable narrator.
I haven't got Spider-Man and the Secret Wars 2 - could you summarize the issue and explain why you feel it is out of continuity?

I hadn't considered the possibility of Zoma being an unreliable narrator. But I also can't discern any reason for him to lie about Titania's origin, either. Originally, my reasons for feeling it's out of continuity are completely based on her origin, but it turns out there's much bigger problems. Issue summary of Spider-Man and the Secret Wars (henceforth SM&TSW) #2 follows.

It begins in media res, with Spider-Man and Ben Grimm (a.k.a. the Thing, but he's currently stuck in human form) giving a pep talk to the people of the portion of Denver that the Beyonder stole for Battleworld. Doctor Doom is also preparing to fight alongside them. Lockheed shows up fighting a huge group of aliens (called Spindlies by the people of Denver). As the battle is joined, we get a flashback to the previous day.

Grimm & Spidey are checking out Denver and making sure that Mr. Fantastic's holo-projectors, which repeat a message explaining the situation to the residents and assuring them that the heroes are going to get them back home, are working. Grimm & Spidey get invited in for dinner at one residence where they learn about the Spindlies, aliens that have attacked some residents on the outskirts of town. Two of these people just happen to have been taken in by those hosting dinner. And those two also happen to have Lockheed with them. (Lockheed saved them from the Spindlies' attack.)

Then Grimm & Spidey find out the Doctor Doom is meeting with various people around the city, including the two women who will eventually become Titania & Volcana. Spidey & Grimm spend the night with the family that had them for dinner and the next day Spidey follows Doom around town, trying to find out what he's up to. Doom eventually finds Grimm and confronts him and Spidey, explaining he's looking for candidates to confer power upon, using the machines found in one of the bases the Beyond provided, in return for loyalty to Doom. He even makes his offer to Grimm & Spidey, but of course they turn him down.

Just as Doom prepares to leave, Mr. Fantastic calls Grimm to tell him the Spindlies are preparing to attack. Doom says he believes an "aggressive defense will deter them" and offers to help Grimm & Spidey protect Denver, as his plans would be disrupted if the aliens cause problems. Mr. Fantastic & Grimm relucantly agree.

We return to the battle in the present. People fight, eventually the aliens are driven off. Doom then announces he has chosen Marsha Rosenberg & Mary MacPherran not because they fought well, but because they chose to fight, even in the face of overwhelming odds. Grimm & Spidey let them go while the rest of Denver celebrates. End of issue.

So, first of all, Volcana and Titania first appear in the second half of M/SHSW 3, but the Molecule Man dropped a mountain on them in M/SHSW 4. That would put SM&TSW 2 before SM&TSW 1, but that's not really a big deal.

What is a big deal is that the heroes had no idea a suburb of Denver was part of Battleworld until M/SHSW 7, when Spider-Woman (Julia Carpenter) showed up. But here, in a story that must precede the second half of M/SHSW 3, the heroes are not only fully aware of the Denver suburb, they're interacting with the populace. That completely undermines a) the heroes wondering where Spider-Woman came from and b) Spider-Woman not showing up until M/SHSW 7 because she saw evidence of fighting and wanted to help the heroes. If this story happened in continuity, she would have shown by M/SHSW 3. Also the heroes probably would have strongly considered going to that Denver suburb instead of Zsaji's village after their base was destroyed. It just doesn't work.

[Aquashark]

I was waiting for someone to discuss this :>

I actually tried to weave together a frame-by-frame reading sequence between issue #1 and the original Secret Wars issues, and I did mostly okay (with a little bit of squinting)... one part that I just *could not* place was p. 5 - 11, where Cap, Hulk, Spidey, and Captain Marvel are out "scouting". Based on Hulk's dialog in 5:2 ("You can stay back at the base if you want."), this is after they've found their base of operations (MSHSW 2 p12) and according to Spidey's narration, this happens "three hours" before the superheroes get trapped underneath the mountain.

By this point, though, they've already captured the Enchantress, who doesn't leave her containment chamber until MSHSW 3 p19.. and even then, she's under Thor's watch. I thought that maybe I could've fit it in between then and MSHSW 4 p7, as there seems to be the space of an evening/morning between them and perhaps she could've somehow slipped away from Thor for a second and had some mischief.

Again, though, it just doesn't seem like it can be. If Cap, Hulk, and the gang were out scouting a few hours before the mountain dropped, Cap shouldn't have expressed the surprise he did in MSHSW 3 20:2 upon awaking - "What--?! It's dawn! And the storm has broken!"

I tried as hard as I could to fit this in, but I'm having difficulties.

To be honest, I thought issue #2 could work -- that possibly Spider-Woman was occupied with her own (unpublished) adventure for a few days until she could join up with the superheroes... and as for the fact that Denver wasn't mentioned until MSHSW 7 originally, this did seem a bit strange. I checked the issue, and the only ones who show surprise are Cap - "You speak English! You're from Earth--!" and Hulk - "How'd she get here?". Perhaps they weren't in on Reed's mission to instill confidence in the people of Denver? It requires some rather large suspension of disbelief, but I probably would've let it go.

I guess same with the fact that it was strange that Captain Marvel didn't lead them to take refuge in Denver but rather in Zsaji's village... but she did say that it seemed like "their best bet". Silly, but possible.

However, I didn't know about the origin story for Titania in S-H3 10. That does cast some doubt...

[Michael]

I guess same with the fact that it was strange that Captain Marvel didn't lead them to take refuge in Denver but rather in Zsaji's village... but she did say that it seemed like "their best bet". Silly, but possible.

But in issue 4, Monica also seemed surprised that there people on Battleworld other than the heroes and villains when she saw Zsaji's village. Maybe they also didn't tell her about Denver. Honestly, though, I can't think of a reason why Reed wouldn't tell Steve and Monica about Denver while the heroes were trying to decide where to go.

[lkseitz]

Just to be the devil's advocate, it is possible that the Denver suburb was just too far for the heroes to travel to when they needed shelter. But, OTOH, it mustn't be too far -- like the other side of the planet -- since Spidey & the Thing had 1-2 days to go off and check on it. Keep in mind that Secret Wars is supposed to take place over about one Earth week.

[Aquashark]

Well, I think issue #3 might settle it for us...

It apparently takes place right before and during the battle with Galactus shown in MSHSW 5 p13-20 (they even reprint part of pages 13 and 14 at the beginning of the issue). It's mostly about Spidey taking on Galactus' reality-bending powers. We get a lot of confusing panels of Spidey tripping out as he climbs up the mountain to go face Galactus, flashbacks to Gwen dying and the burglar escaping, MJ, etc... and futureflashes to Venom as well. He's talking with the Enchantress throughout the issue.

On page 15, Spidey and the Enchantress travel to an "alternate reality" which is really MSHSW 8 p24 panels 1+2 text verbatim (drawn similarly as well).

Somehow during this battle, Spidey gets his black suit. He and the heroes regain their senses, destroy Galactus' doomsday machine, and force him to flee off the planet. He keeps the black suit the whole time, and Johnny Storm comments on it.

Unless this whole issue is revealed to be a mind-trip, I really doubt this mini-series is canon.

[JephYork]

How about issue #4? Did that fit into, or continue to contradict, the original story?

-Jeph!

[Aquashark]

The "now" portion of the 4th issue takes place while Doom has stolen the Beyonder's powers. He is talking to Klaw about how he is destined to lose the powers he just gained. He relates the story of how he unwittingly took Wolverine and Spider-Man along to his fight with the Beyonder due to his self-doubt, which he says will be his downfall. He tells Klaw that he erased the memory of the journey from the heroes minds, as it would be too big of a burden for a mere mortal to bear.

It doesn't seem likely that Doom's tone of conversation would turn from godlike indifference to somber reflection on his destiny, unless I try to squeeze it after page 21 of MSHSW 11 (After Captain America retrieves Spider-Woman from Doom's fortress, Doom seems to be troubled. Klaw asks him what's wrong; he responds with "The inevitable, I fear.") I think the original intent there was that he realized the superheroes were going to rise against him, causing him to destroy them all. However, with some strained suspension of disbelief, I could say he launches into his dialog with Klaw from the S-M:SW issue and then goes about destroying the heroes.

Spider-Man's new tale probably starts after page/panel 10:4 of MSHSW 9. The heroes are fighting Galactus' droids. Cap asks Reed what their plan is, and Reed says things are hopeless - Galactus will devour the planet. Cap tells him to snap out of it and keep fighting. ... I guess after this happens, we could say that Iron Man scores the critical hit on Galactus' machine and Reed's spirits perk up (inciting his "let's not stop Galactus" line of thought) ...

Then we get a few panels that mirror MSHSW 9 p24 when Galactus is devouring his ship's energy.

We then get a panel of Cap asking "What's going on?" with Reed responding "Something's gone wrong. Something interrupted the process. I believe someone is diverting Galactus's power. Maybe even... stealing it?" I guess this could go after 3:2 of MSHSW 10 right after Cap sends Captain Marvel to reconnoiter. Again, a bit jaggy, but it could be done.

Then Wolverine smells Jean Grey and Spidey goes running off after Gwen Stacy. They get whisked off as Doom travels to encounter the Beyonder. They fight a bunch of random monsters and a Godzilla-sized Kingpin on an asteroid. Eventually, you see an even-bigger Doom squaring off against the Beyonder and besting him. (So I guess Spidey missed the part where Doom got obliterated and dissected while he was still alive from MSHSW 10. Too busy fighting?) The Beyonder's power starts moving towards Doom, but passes through Wolverine on the way. He drops to the asteroid's floor, and asks Spidey to "put him down". Then the power moves into Spider-Man. Throughout the issue, we see 5 or 6 pages worth of what Spider-Man would do if he had the Beyonder's power. Jonah would be following him around snapping pictures of Spidey beating a bunch of Marvel villains from Ultron to Galactus. Our hero would also be resurrecting Uncle Ben from getting killed in every other panel (by the Green Goblin, Venom, a speeding car...). This universe apparently only lasts "a fraction of one-billionth of a second", and then the power moves on to Doom.

It's not quite an analysis, but ... I guess this issue could be shoehorned into existing continuity with some rough edges. I still can't make sense of the 3rd issue, though.