The Eye of Odin's Tale (flashbacks in T 295-300)

[Chris McCarver]

Any Asgardophiles: I've been looking over these issues of Thor and I didn't see the rather large flashbacks therein in the MCP anywhere (realizing that the canonicity of the flashbacks has been called into question), and I was wondering if anyone had an idea as to where in Thor's history these would fit. Any ideas?

[Somebody]

They've not been so much "called into question" as systematically nuked step-by-step. A couple of shreds remain (e.g., the fact of Ragnarok cycles, though not the detail as-presented), but there isn't enough left to place.

[Chris McCarver]

Right, I was aware later stories had knocked most of it out, but I have confirmation from the Handbook and Index crews that the periods Thor spent in the guise of Siegmund and Siegfried are considered in-continuity (since Valkyrie has made in-continuity mentions of the events), hence why I'm trying to find a spot to place them in. The bits of that arc that covered Odin's origin in and of themselves, though, were confirmed as out-of-continuity.

I've got the Siegmund/Siegfried portions slotted in at just after Thor took an extended hiatus from mortal matters in T@ 11. The part I'm having trouble placing is the flashback just before detailing the construction of Valhalla.

[Chris McCarver]

Okay, I've got an idea as to where to place Valhalla's construction but I've got a question... was Valhalla mentioned or seen prior to JIM 103/3 (which is where I'm thinking of sticking it)?

[Paul Bourcier]

I don't see Valhalla mentioned in any of the Thor write-ups in last month's Index #1.

[Chris McCarver]

Awright, taking a stab at this (centering on Thor, Odin, and Brunnhilda for the moment)...

THOR/THOR ODINSON
{...}
T@ 11-FB
[T 294-FB]
[T 295-FB]
[T 299-FB-FB]
T2 52-FB
T:G 1
[T 296-FB-FB]
[T 296-FB]
[T 297-FB]
[T 298-FB]
[T 299-FB]
[T 300-FB]
T@ 5
{...}

ODIN/ODIN BORSON
{...}
T@ 11-FB
[T 294-FB]
[T 295-FB]
[T 299-FB-FB]
T2 52-FB
[T 296-FB-FB]
[T 296-FB-FB]
[T 296-FB]
[T 297-FB-FB]
[T 297-FB]
[T 298-FB]
[T 299-FB]
[T 300-FB]
T@ 5
[T 300-FB]
M/HOL 1991/4
{...}

VALKYRIE/BRUNNHILDA
{...}
T:SOA 9
[T 296-FB]
[T 297-FB]
[T 298-FB]
[T 299-FB]
[T 300-FB]
DEF 109-FB
{...}

[Somebody]

Won't we need page ranges for at least some of those?

[Chris McCarver]

Done.

THOR/THOR ODINSON
{...}
T@ 11-FB
[T 294 (15:6-17:2)-FB]
[T 295 (1:1-3:4)-FB]
[T 295 (4:3-18:3)-FB]
[T 299 (2:2)-FB-FB]
T2 52-FB
T:G 1
[T 296 (6:3-8:3)-FB-FB]
[T 296 (4:1-10:2)-FB]
[T 296 (12:6-18:1)-FB]
[T 297 (1:2-2:1)-FB]
[T 297 (8:5-9:1)-FB]
[T 297 (9:4-17:3)-FB]
[T 298 (1:1)-FB]
[T 298 (2:2-17:3)-FB]
[T 299 (1:1-6:9)-FB]
[T 299 (8:3-17:5)-FB]
[T 300 (2:1-5:4)-FB]
[T 300 (6:6-7:3)-FB]
T@ 5
{...}

ODIN/ODIN BORSON
{...}
T@ 11-FB
[T 294 (13:4-17:2)-FB]
[T 295 (2:3-3:4)-FB]
[T 295 (4:3-18:3)-FB]
[T 299 (2:2)-FB-FB]
T2 52-FB
[T 296 (6:3-7:1)-FB-FB]
[T 296 (9:4-9:5)-FB-FB]
[T 296 (2:5-3:2)-FB]
[T 296 (10:4-18:4)-FB]
[T 297 (13:4)-FB-FB]
[T 297 (1:2-8:1)-FB]
[T 297 (15:2-16:4)-FB]
[T 298 (2:3-14:3)-FB]
[T 300 (6:2-10:7)-FB]
T@ 5
[T 300 (12/13:1-12/13:6)-FB]
[T 300 (15:1-18:5)-FB]
M/HOL 1991/4
{...}

VALKYRIE/BRUNNHILDA
{...}
T:SOA 9
[T 296 (3:3-3:4)-FB]
[T 296 (10:4-18:2)-FB]
[T 297 (2:5-8:1)-FB]
[T 298 (16:1-17:3)-FB]
[T 299 (1:1-1:8)-FB]
[T 299 (7:2-17:4)-FB]
[T 300 (5:1-5:6)-FB]
[T 300 (6:6-7:3)-FB]
DEF 109-FB
{...}

[Russ Chappell]

Chris,

You have Thor: Godstorm 1 taking place in the middle of this sequence, for Thor. In light of the pre-JIM 83 chronology in the sidebar of issue 1 of the current Index, where would you place this sequence of stories in the greater picture?

That chronology has Thor: Godstorm 1 taking place somewhere between T2 50/3 and M/CP 63/4. Do we lift the entire sequence to appear between these two, or is Godstorm the only book that gets moved. If the latter, again where would you suggest that T 295-300 FB's go?

Following is a proposed melding of the current MCP chronology with the Index sidebar:

T@ 11 (5:1)-FB
T 293 (9:4)-FB
T@ 11 (5:2 - 5:5)-FB
T2 9-FB
T2 44-FB
T@ 11/2
JIM 113/2
T 402/2
T 403/2
T:SOA 8-FB
T2 1-FB
T:SOA 1
T:SOA 2
T:SOA 3
T:SOA 4 (1 - 7)
T:SOA 10 (18:9)-FB
T:SOA 4 (8 - 23)
T:SOA 5
T:SOA 10 (18:3)-FB
T:SOA 6
T:SOA 7
T:SOA 8
T:SOA 9
T:SOA 10 (18:8)-FB
JIM 100/2
T 252/2-FB
JIM 100/2
T@ 11-FB-FB
JIM 100/2
JIM 101/2 (1:1 - 3:1)
T@ 11 (16:1)-FB-FB
T 252/2 (2:4)-FB
JIM 101/2 (3:2 - 5:3)
T 252/2 (3:1)-FB
T:SOA 10 (1 - 9)
JIM 102/2 (1)
T:SOA 10 (10:2 - 10:3)
JIM 102/2 (2:1)
T:SOA 10 (11)
JIM 102/2 (2:2)
T:SOA 10 (12 - 14)
JIM 102/2 (2:3)
T:SOA 10 (15:1 - 15:3)
JIM 102/2 (2:4 - 3:1)
T:SOA 10 (15:6:4 - 21:5)
JIM 102/2 (3:2)
T:SOA 11 (1 - 5:5)
T 252/2 (3:2)-FB
T:SOA 11 (6 - 7)
T 252/2 (3:3)-FB
JIM 102/2 (3:3 - 4:2)
T:SOA 11 (8:1 - 19:2)
JIM 102/2 (4:3 - 4:4)
T:SOA 11 (20 - 22)
T:SOA 12 (1 - 13)
JIM 102/2 (5:1 - 5:2:1)
T:SOA 12 (14:4 - 14:6)
JIM 102/2 (5:2:2)
T:SOA 12 (15:3 - 17)
JIM 102/2 (5:3)
T:SOA 12 (18:5:2 - 22)
JIM 102/2 (5:4)
M/FAN 37
T@ 11-FB
T 466-FB
T 252/2
T 253/2
T:TOH
JIM 103/2
T@ 5
JIM 106/2
JIM 108/2
JIM 109/2
T@ 11-FB
JIM 110/2
JIM 111/2
JIM@ 1
JIM 115/2
JIM 116/2
T 323
T@ 5
M/PRV 10
JIM 117/2
JIM 118/2
JIM 119/2
JIM 120/2
JIM 121/2
JIM 122/2
JIM 123/2
JIM 124/2
JIM 125/2
T 126/2
T 127/2
T 128/2
T 129/2
T 130/2
T 131/2
T 132/2
T 133/2
T 134/2
T 135/2
T 136/2
T 137/2
T 138/2
T 139/2
T 140/2
T 141/2
T 142/2
T 143/2
T 144/2
T 145/2
T 474
T@ 8
T2 50/3
RAVEN BANNER
T@ 11-FB
T 294 (15:6 - 17:2)-FB
T 295 (1:1 - 3:4)-FB
T 295 (4:3 - 18:3)-FB
T 299 (2:2)-FB-FB
T:G 1
T 296 (6:3 - 8:3)-FB-FB
T 296 (4 - 10:2)-FB
T 296 (12:6 - 18:1)-FB
T 297 (1:2 - 2;1)-FB
T 297 (8:5 - 9:1)-FB
T 297 (9:4 - 17:3)-FB
T 298 (1)-FB
T 298 (2:2 - 17:3)-FB
T 299 (1 - 6:9)
T 299 (8:3 - 17:5)-FB
T 300 (2:1 - 5:4)-FB
T 300 (6:6 - 7:3)-FB
M/CP 63/4-FB
T@ 14/4
T@ 18-FB
CM5 17-FB
M/HOL 1991/4
BIZADV 32-FB
CV2 4
T2 52-FB
M/SH3 15/2-FB
T@ 11
T 401
T 370
BP3 46
BP3 47
INV 32
INV 33
AC 5/2-FB
VENUS 12
VENUS 13
SM&W 4-FB-FB
M/:LG 5
M/SH3 15/3
M/TALES 252/2
T 415-FB-BTS
T 479-FB-BTS
T 415-FB-BTS
T 479-FB-BTS
T 415-FB-BTS
JIM -1
M/SAGA 1
T 159 (8:2 - 20:1)-FB
UTSM '97/2-BTS
{JIM 83}

[Chris McCarver]

Given a second look at the sidebar (which was a considerable part of my research on this), I think I've found a significant dilemma.

The flashbacks up until roughly halfway through those in T 300 would absolutely have to take place prior to the Olympian/Asgardian war in T@ 5 and Thor's "first" battle with Hercules in JIM@ 1, since both events are referenced in T 300 as taking place towards the end of the events depicted in the eye's tale. Since Thor was seen in the flashbacks fully capable of wielding Mjolnir, that places the sequence at the earliest after the T@ 11 flashback immediately preceding T 466-FB. I put the earlier part of it immediately after JIM 103/3, since Valhalla hadn't been mentioned that late in the JIM backups.

However, the reason I placed T:G 1 in the middle of that is that I figured a considerable time-jump between flashbacks in T 296. We end one flashback with Odin surveying the completed but still empty Valhalla, and then (with the Eye naming the timeframe as "a thousand years ago") to Siegmund staggering into Hunding's home. I presumed on the Eye's "timestamp" and based on the sidebar (which tags T 401 as happening in 1000 AD and therefore shortly afterwards) that the flashbacks ranging from Siegmund's arrival at Hunding's house in T 296-FB and the end of Odin's self-exile in T 300-FB had to have taken place then. But, since the abovenoted encounters with the Olympians are placed much earlier in the sidebar (bookending the backups in JIM 108-111), therein lies the problem.

Soooo... I don't have this nearly as tied up as I should have. Hooboy.

[Somebody]

Following is a proposed melding of the current MCP chronology with the Index sidebar:

[...]
T 252/2
T 253/2
T:TOH
JIM 103/2
T@ 5
[...]

I'm curious about this placement of Truth of History - the Index places it in 2000 BC, but (a) in it Thor & co are familiar with other pantheons, whereas they only LEARN of them in T@ 5 and (b) the pyramids were done and the Egyptian Royalty had decamped to Thebes by 2000 BC, while they're shown to be under construction and the Pharoah living in Giza in T:TOH.

To make any sense of it when I analysed it ("Thor: The Truth of History" thread in IA), I assumed the portal they went through involved time travel to the past, before 2500 BC per the framing sequence (thus preserving the "less than four thousand years ago" caption in relation to the scenes set in Asgard and the Asgardians' knowledge of other pantheons, while allowing the pyramids to still be under construction in Egypt).

[The Index also missed, in the entry for JIM 105/2, that Nedra appears subsequently in T:TOH.]

[Chris McCarver]

Okay, I think I've finally got an idea on how to place this stuff. Had to stretch some things, but I hope it works. Here goes.

(Russ, go ahead and jump to the bottom if you need to for the answer to your question. The preceding gets a little wordy, I get to the point at the end.)

INDEX SIDEBAR: Aske and Embla are created with the aid of Thor and King Mirmir in JIM 103/3. Listed at the end of the sidebar's third paragraph.

It's my belief that this is the latest event that can precede the Nibelung flashbacks. Thor wields Mjolnir in this story with a fair degree of deftness (the stories placed just before in JIM 102/2, T:SOA 10-12 and T@ 11-FB have him just recently granted it), plus the Nibelung saga begins with the construction of Valhalla. If Aske and Embla are the first humans per Asgardian legend, it would stand to reason that some humans would have had to existed to necessitate Valhalla's building.

INDEX SIDEBAR: A war between the Asgardians and Olympians is incited by Loki in T@ 5. Listed in lines 2-5 of the sidebar's fourth paragraph.

Absolutely the earliest event that the Nibelung saga can precede. This event is specifically seen during the last issue's worth of flashbacks, following Odin ending his self-crucifixion in T 300 (10:1) and learning about the Celestials' plans for Earth from Mimir (10:7).

Now here's where I'm having to hypothesize a bit, because neither the MCP nor the sidebar specifically place the time that Thor spent with the Eternals a millennium ago, the memory of which was wiped from his mind by the Eternals immediately after his departure and which he only learned about in T@ 7. However, the sidebar gives a couple of timestamped events (CV 4 [950 AD] and T 401 [1000 AD]) that give me a point to aim for.

THOR #300:

Page 12: The above-noted and brief Asgardian/Olympian war, during which Odin and Zeus privately meet and agree to an unspoken pact.

Pages 13-14: The Council of God-Heads meet and agree to route the Celestials upon their arrival.

Page 15: At the very moment the Council is meeting (the Eye places this), Thor leaves the Eternals' stronghold, not knowing his memory has been erased. The Celestials arrive within moments and begin their work.

Page 16: Odin, Zeus, and Vishnu arrive and declare their defiance against the Celestials. Ajak tries to talk them out of it.

Page 17: The three god-kings ignore Ajak and attack Arishem, who no-sells their strike. He then sends a cosmic inferno through a dimensional rift that would permanently cut the three pantheon's realms off from Earth. Ajak tells the three gods that Arishem will carry out his threat unless the three swear an oath of non-interference in Earthly affairs for (the important bit) a thousand years.

Since the Celestials come calling in what was in real-time the beginning of the 1980s (I know it's a stretch giving the elasticity of 616 time, but hang with me here), I think that places everything between the Council's convening and the end of the Eye's tale (13:1 - 19:5) thus:

T2 52: Thor is horrified to learn innocents are slaughtered in his name.
T@ 11: Thor witnesses the murder of monks by his followers and vows withdrawal from Midgard.
[T 300-FB: Council convenes, Odin faces the Celestials and ends up swearing an oath to them.]
T 401: Thor poses as the Viking mortal Sigurd on a bet with Loki.

This basically places a major-league time jump between pages 12 & 13. Initially the plan was to have the entire Nibelung/Third Host story all massed together but the Index sidebar places the war with the Olympians much earlier than a thousand years ago (the next timestamped entry is Thor: Truth of History [2000 BC]), which necessitates breaking it up.

So taking all that into consideration, Russ (here we go), here's where I would place things on your Index-updated chrono for Thor:

T@ 11 (5:1)-FB
T 293 (9:4)-FB
T@ 11 (5:2 - 5:5)-FB
T2 9-FB
T2 44-FB
T@ 11/2
JIM 113/2
T 402/2
T 403/2
T:SOA 8-FB
T2 1-FB
T:SOA 1
T:SOA 2
T:SOA 3
T:SOA 4 (1 - 7)
T:SOA 10 (18:9)-FB
T:SOA 4 (8 - 23)
T:SOA 5
T:SOA 10 (18:3)-FB
T:SOA 6
T:SOA 7
T:SOA 8
T:SOA 9
T:SOA 10 (18:8)-FB
JIM 100/2
T 252/2-FB
JIM 100/2
T@ 11-FB-FB
JIM 100/2
JIM 101/2 (1:1 - 3:1)
T@ 11 (16:1)-FB-FB
T 252/2 (2:4)-FB
JIM 101/2 (3:2 - 5:3)
T 252/2 (3:1)-FB
T:SOA 10 (1 - 9)
JIM 102/2 (1)
T:SOA 10 (10:2 - 10:3)
JIM 102/2 (2:1)
T:SOA 10 (11)
JIM 102/2 (2:2)
T:SOA 10 (12 - 14)
JIM 102/2 (2:3)
T:SOA 10 (15:1 - 15:3)
JIM 102/2 (2:4 - 3:1)
T:SOA 10 (15:6:4 - 21:5)
JIM 102/2 (3:2)
T:SOA 11 (1 - 5:5)
T 252/2 (3:2)-FB
T:SOA 11 (6 - 7)
T 252/2 (3:3)-FB
JIM 102/2 (3:3 - 4:2)
T:SOA 11 (8:1 - 19:2)
JIM 102/2 (4:3 - 4:4)
T:SOA 11 (20 - 22)
T:SOA 12 (1 - 13)
JIM 102/2 (5:1 - 5:2:1)
T:SOA 12 (14:4 - 14:6)
JIM 102/2 (5:2:2)
T:SOA 12 (15:3 - 17)
JIM 102/2 (5:3)
T:SOA 12 (18:5:2 - 22)
JIM 102/2 (5:4)
M/FAN 37
T@ 11-FB
T 466-FB
T 252/2
T 253/2
T:TOH
JIM 103/2
[T 294 (15:6 - 17:2)-FB]
[T 295 (1:1 - 3:4)-FB]
[T 295 (4:3 - 18:3)-FB]
[T 299 (2:2)-FB-FB]]
[T 296 (6:3 - 8:3)-FB-FB]
[T 296 (4 - 10:2)-FB]
[T 296 (12:6 - 18:1)-FB]
[T 297 (1:2 - 2;1)-FB]
[T 297 (8:5 - 9:1)-FB]
[T 297 (9:4 - 17:3)-FB]
[T 298 (1)-FB]
[T 298 (2:2 - 17:3)-FB]
[T 299 (1 - 6:9)-FB]
[T 299 (8:3 - 17:5)-FB]
[T 300 (2:1 - 5:4)-FB]
[T 300 (6:6 - 7:3)-FB]
T@ 5 [retold and expanded on in T 300 (11:1 - 11:9)]
JIM 106/2
JIM 108/2
JIM 109/2
T@ 11-FB
JIM 110/2
JIM 111/2
JIM@ 1
JIM 115/2
JIM 116/2
T 323
T@ 5
M/PRV 10
JIM 117/2
JIM 118/2
JIM 119/2
JIM 120/2
JIM 121/2
JIM 122/2
JIM 123/2
JIM 124/2
JIM 125/2
T 126/2
T 127/2
T 128/2
T 129/2
T 130/2
T 131/2
T 132/2
T 133/2
T 134/2
T 135/2
T 136/2
T 137/2
T 138/2
T 139/2
T 140/2
T 141/2
T 142/2
T 143/2
T 144/2
T 145/2
T 474
T@ 8
T2 50/3
RAVEN BANNER
T@ 11-FB
T:G 1
M/CP 63/4-FB
T@ 14/4
T@ 18-FB
CM5 17-FB
M/HOL 1991/4
BIZADV 32-FB
CV2 4
T2 52-FB
M/SH3 15/2-FB
T@ 11
[T 300 (15:2)-FB]
T 401
T 370
BP3 46
BP3 47
INV 32
INV 33
AC 5/2-FB
VENUS 12
VENUS 13
SM&W 4-FB-FB
M/:LG 5
M/SH3 15/3
M/TALES 252/2
T 415-FB-BTS
T 479-FB-BTS
T 415-FB-BTS
T 479-FB-BTS
T 415-FB-BTS
JIM -1
M/SAGA 1
T 159 (8:2 - 20:1)-FB
UTSM '97/2-BTS
{JIM 83}

In short, it's my theory that the whole of the Nibelung saga takes place between JIM 103/3 and T@ 5.

[Russ Chappell]

That fairly closely matches my conclusions. Thanks, Chris!

Russ