FF vs. the X-Men

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Michael
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FF vs. the X-Men

Post by Michael »

Currently we have the Fantastic Four vs. the X-Men limited series placed between FF 298 and FF 299. That doesn't work. Reed and Sue clearly know about Franklin's astral-projection powers in the FF vs. the X-Men limited series but they seem to learn aboutt Franklin's astral projection abilities for the first time in FF 301.
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Re: FF vs. the X-Men

Post by Paul Bourcier »

Another thing to consider: In FFVX 2, Johnny says he'll be "Alicia's," which suggests that it occurs before "Alicia" (Lyja) moves in with Johnny. In FFVX 3, their separate living arrangements are confirmed when Johnny goes to visit Alicia in the middle of the night. Since Johnny and Lyja wed in FF 300, I took this as a clue that FFVX occurs before FF 300.
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Re: FF vs. the X-Men

Post by Michael »

Yeah, but it's a lot easier to explain that away by saying that the FF vs. X-Men limited series takes place shortly after Johnny and Alicia got married (before they had time to move in together) than it is to explain away Reed's and Sue's reactions to Franklin astral-projecting in FF 301 if they'd already seen him astral project in the FF vs. X-Men limited series.
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Re: FF vs. the X-Men

Post by Michael »

There's another problem with putting the FF vs. the X-Men between FF 298 and FF 299. In Spider-Man's chronology, Peter's appearance in the Spider-Man vs. Wolverine one-shot takes place after his appearance in FF 299. But in Wolverine's chronology, his appearance in the Spider-Man vs. Wolverine one-shot takes place before his appearance in the FF vs. the X-Men. So if the FF vs. the X-Men takes place before FF 299, then Logan's appearance in the Spider-Man vs. Wolverine one-shot must take place before FF 299 but Peter's appearance in the Spider-Man vs. Wolverine one-shot must take place after FF 299.
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Re: FF vs. the X-Men

Post by Paul Bourcier »

Well, that's an argument for placing FFVX after FF 299 but not necessarily after FF 300. The fact that Reed saw Franklin's astral self in FFVX 4 is more compelling, but I can't help but wonder if the failing psychic dampers Reed refers to in FF 301 are to dampers he attempted to strengthen after FFVX 4.
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Re: FF vs. the X-Men

Post by tlynch »

Having just reread the LS this morning, I think that, barring weirdness in the X-Men's chronology, it almost assuredly has to take place after FF301, which really means after FF302 since that takes place during Johnny's honeymoon.

In FF301, Reed doesn't seem surprised that the checks he put on Franklin are breaking down; he seems surprised by the existence of Franklin's astral self at all, as does Sue. Since neither of them evinces any such surprise during the FFVX limited, I think that's got to be after issue 301.

The fact that Johnny and Alicia still seem to have separate abodes doesn't cause a huge problem; lots of people take a little time to merge homes even after they get married. (I did, for one.)
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Re: FF vs. the X-Men

Post by Paul Bourcier »

The fact that Johnny and Alicia still seem to have separate abodes doesn't cause a huge problem; lots of people take a little time to merge homes even after they get married. (I did, for one.)
Yes, but you'd think they'd be sleeping together in one place or the other. In FFVX 3, Johnny and Lyjalicia are obviously not doing so.
In FF301, Reed doesn't seem surprised that the checks he put on Franklin are breaking down; he seems surprised by the existence of Franklin's astral self at all, as does Sue.
I'm not saying that Reed and Sue aren't surprised as Franklin's astral self -- they are. But why are they surprised? That, I think, is open to interpretation.
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Re: FF vs. the X-Men

Post by Col_Fury »

Four Freedoms Plaza is named in FF 299, before that it was just "the Fantastic Four's headquarters." Any comics that call the building "Four Freedoms Plaza" should occur after FF 299.

FF@ 22/2 takes place immediately after Mr. Fantastic's & Invisible Woman's appearance in FF 299. Technically it takes place during FF 299, but there's no character overlap. Currently, we have FF@ 22/2 before FF 299, it should be moved to after. (in FF 299 Mr. Fantastic names the building, in FF@ 22/2 he walks away from the ceremony)

Currently, FFV.X 1-4 is placed before FF 299 in the MCP. However, Four Freedoms Plaza in name-checked in that miniseries. So at the very least, we need to move FFV.X 1-4 to after FF 299.

In FF 299, the Daily Bugle is notified that Johnny Storm is going to marry Alicia Masters. The next day in FF 300, the Daily Bugle prints the story, which Johnny is upset about. FF 301 takes place the day after FF 300 ends. In comparing Spider-Man's & Wolverine's chronologies:

SPIDER-MAN
...
ASM 285
ASM 286
ASM 287
PPTSS 123
FF 299
WOSM 25
WOSM 27
PP 29
ASM 287
ASM 288
PPTSS 125
PPTSS 126
WTS 17
WTS 18
ASMV.W 1
ASM 289
WOSM 29
...

WOLVERINE
...
UX 214
MEPHV. 3
MEPHV. 4
UX 215
UX 216
UX 228-FB
ASMV.W 1
UX 228-FB
WOSM 29
FFV.X 1
FFV.X 2
FF2 7
FFV.X 3
FFV.X 4

XVSA 1
XVSA 2
XVSA 3
XVSA 4
UX@ 11
UX 220
...

We can see that FF 299 takes place before ASMV.W 1, which in turn takes place before FFV.X 1-4. So, unless I'm missing something, FF 299-301 are a block and we have this order:

FF 299
FF 300
FF 301
ASMV.W 1
FFV.X 1
FFV.X 2
FFV.X 3
FFV.X 4

Which would mean that, for whatever reason, Johnny & "Alicia" hadn't moved in together yet as of FFV.X 1-4.
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Re: FF vs. the X-Men

Post by Paul Bourcier »

Col_Fury wrote:
In FF 299, the Daily Bugle is notified that Johnny Storm is going to marry Alicia Masters. The next day in FF 300, the Daily Bugle prints the story, which Johnny is upset about. FF 301 takes place the day after FF 300 ends. ... So, unless I'm missing something, FF 299-301 are a block and we have this order
Colonel, are you considering the fact that there's a gap between pages 12-13 of FF 300? The second part occurs on 'the "Saturday" following the first part, and there could easily be several days in the gap. In fact, FF 299 occurs on a "Saturday," and assuming the Daily Bugle report came out the day after FF 299, the first part of FF 300 would be on a Sunday. That creates a 6-day gap between pages 12-13 of FF 300. The wedding occurs in the second part.

Astral self argument aside, couldn't FFVX occur during that 6-day gap before the wedding?
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Re: FF vs. the X-Men

Post by Col_Fury »

Col_Fury wrote:unless I'm missing something
Paul Bourcier wrote:there's a gap between pages 12-13 of FF 300
I missed something! :)
Paul Bourcier wrote:couldn't FFVX occur during that 6-day gap before the wedding?
It could, but going back to Spider-Man & Wolverine again, at least all of this:

FF 299
WOSM 25
WOSM 27
PP 29
ASM 287
ASM 288
PPTSS 125
PPTSS 126
WTS 17
WTS 18
ASMV.W 1
&
ASMV.W 1
UX 228-FB
WOSM 29
FFV.X 1
FFV.X 2
FF2 7
FFV.X 3
FFV.X 4

would have to go between pages 12-13 of FF 300. Does that cause any problems?
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Re: FF vs. the X-Men

Post by Col_Fury »

Paul Bourcier wrote:
tlynch wrote:In FF301, Reed doesn't seem surprised that the checks he put on Franklin are breaking down; he seems surprised by the existence of Franklin's astral self at all, as does Sue.
I'm not saying that Reed and Sue aren't surprised as Franklin's astral self -- they are. But why are they surprised? That, I think, is open to interpretation.
Again, maybe I'm missing something, but why would Reed and Sue be surprised by Franklin's astral self? Franklin was born with powers, he's had them turned on and off several times before FF 299-301 & FFV.X 1-4, and he'd been hanging out with Power Pack right before these FF issues.

In FF 301, Reed is initially surprised that Franklin is intangible. Franklin feels the need to explain his dream powers. Franklin says that the Wizard is holding Ben captive in the panel that Sue looks shocked. After Franklin is rescued and back at home, Reed and Sue calm Franklin down by saying they'll learn all they can about Franklin's powers.

I don't think that definitively says this is the first time Reed & Sue have seen Franklin's astral self... am I missing something?
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Re: FF vs. the X-Men

Post by Michael »

Col_Fury wrote:Again, maybe I'm missing something, but why would Reed and Sue be surprised by Franklin's astral self? Franklin was born with powers, he's had them turned on and off several times before FF 299-301 & FFV.X 1-4, and he'd been hanging out with Power Pack right before these FF issues.
But Franklin had never astral-projected before Power Pack 24. And in subsequent issues of Power Pack and the FF, Franklin doesn't explicitly say that he can astral-project (as opposed to dream the future) in front of Reed and Sue . Then, in the FF vs. the X-Men series, Reed and Sue seem to know Franklin can astral-project.
Col_Fury wrote: In FF 301, Reed is initially surprised that Franklin is intangible. Franklin feels the need to explain his dream powers. Franklin says that the Wizard is holding Ben captive in the panel that Sue looks shocked. After Franklin is rescued and back at home, Reed and Sue calm Franklin down by saying they'll learn all they can about Franklin's powers.

I don't think that definitively says this is the first time Reed & Sue have seen Franklin's astral self... am I missing something?
Why would Franklin feel the need to explain how his powers worked if Reed and Sue already knew?
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Re: FF vs. the X-Men

Post by Paul Bourcier »

Col_Fury wrote:
at least all of this...would have to go between pages 12-13 of FF 300. Does that cause any problems?
FF 299 wouldn't go between pages of FF 300, but, yes, the others would if we maintain existing Spidey and Wolvie chronologies. This would be a problem from a calendar perspective if the gap between pages 12-13 of FF 300 is only 6 days. I think all those issues take a cumulative month to occur. However, the "Saturday" introduction to page 13 doesn't necessarily imply "the next Saturday." The gap could be as big as it needs to be. In pages 1-12, Lyjalicia tries on her wedding gown; this is presumably a gown fitting, which certainly can occur a month before a wedding.

Michael wrote:
Why would Franklin feel the need to explain how his powers worked if Reed and Sue already knew?
What you say makes sense, but I want to be sure you're not conflating Franklin's precognitive dreams with his astral projection. In FFVX, Reed and Sue definitely know about Franklin's dreams, but do they ever see Franklin in his astral state? (I checked quickly and couldn't see it, but I might have missed it.) If not, then we might have the following:
FFVX -- Reed and Sue know about Franklin's dreams (are there previous references to this before FF 301?) THEN
FF 301 -- Franklin's astral projection is discovered by Reed and Sue; Franklin's concerned that his parents may not love him because of his powers (or perhaps because his powers are persisting and more abilities are coming to the fore); Reed and Sue now want to devote themselves to learning all about his powers (since the astral stuff was unexpected and in addition to the dream ability)
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Re: FF vs. the X-Men

Post by Michael »

Paul Bourcier wrote: What you say makes sense, but I want to be sure you're not conflating Franklin's precognitive dreams with his astral projection. In FFVX, Reed and Sue definitely know about Franklin's dreams, but do they ever see Franklin in his astral state? (I checked quickly and couldn't see it, but I might have missed it.)
Yes, Reed sees Franklin in his astral form on page 9 of issue 4. As for Sue, on page 5 of issue 4, she thinks "He's fast asleep. I wonder, does that mean his astral form's gone wandering?"
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Re: FF vs. the X-Men

Post by Paul Bourcier »

Yes, Reed sees Franklin in his astral form on page 9 of issue 4. As for Sue, on page 5 of issue 4, she thinks "He's fast asleep. I wonder, does that mean his astral form's gone wandering?"
OK, thanks for checking. I've re-read FF 301 and FFVX (including #4) and also checked Power Pack issues back to #23, in which Reed and Sue are beginning to grow concerned about the weakening psychic dampers on Franklin's powers.

It appears that FFVX was meant to occur both before the end of FF 300 and after FF 301. Of course, both can't be true. So, what's easier to ignore or explain away -- the sequence of Reed's and Sue's interactions with Franklin or Johnny and Lyjalicia apparently living separarely following the wedding? I'm going to have to concede that the Johnny and Lyjalicia situation is easier to explain. We can argue that Lyjalicia hadn't completely moved out of her apartment by FFVX 3-4 (following the wedding) and I suppose Johnny could have been staying there at the time of FFVX ("I'll be at Alicia's"); there's nothing that explicitly states or shows they're sleeping in different places. I wanted to be sure we had a good argument against the placement of FFVX before the wedding, and it appears we do.

Well done, Michael! :)

Now, the question is: do we need to place FFVX 1-4 after FF 302-303, in which Johnny and Alicia are on their honeymoon?
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